HOW MANY Jews died...

[King of the Americas]

...during the Holocaust?

During a movie, "Talk Radio" the radio host is confronted by a neo-nazi who claims that the numbers have been well overly-inflated, and that the surviving Jews were and are getting rich off of this.

"Hitler killed between 5 and 7 million Jews!" the host screamed into the mike. "It could have also been 2.", the caller slithered.

And that moment it sunk in, WHAT IF we are actually spawning hatred toward the Jews by our unequal treatment toward them. I am talking strictly U.S. Policy toward Israel now.

I mean, if I am not mistaken, that IS one of the arguments you hear from OBL, is it not?

So HOW MANY actually died, were murdered, were held in sub-human conditions, or worked like so many slaves? Are those numbers available, and in today's litigious society could we attach a value to that pain and suffering. Because when we have that number, then we can apply it to what Israel has amassed since then, and see if they are still in the 'red' persay.

At 'some' point they should be paid off, and no longer rely on the U.N. or the U.S. for financial or militarial support.

 

[Donks]

At 'some' point they should be paid off, and no longer rely on the U.N. or the U.S. for financial or militarial support.

You seem to be assuming the only reason for aid to Israel is the Holocause. In my view, Israel should receive financial and military aid, if for no other reason, because it's the only democracy in the region.

 

[aerocontrols]

At 'some' point they should be paid off, and no longer rely on the U.N. or the U.S. for financial or militarial support.

Leave it to KotA to make me laugh-out-loud in a post about the Holocaust.

The U.N. might end financial and militarial support for Israel? Now I've heard it all, crazy guy

 

[King of the Americas]

To Donks:

I gotta say, I think if you were to be honest you'd call Israel a "Theocratic" Democracy, since you have to be Jewish to live and vote there, or be 'Jew' living abroad. Many people are citizens of both Israel and the U.S., and vote in each election, as they see fit.

BIG deal...

Why should ANY nation's burdens fall to someone else, with no end in sight?

In any case, I understand that the reason for the Israel was to provide for them a homeland, and repay them 'restitutions'. Did you know there was lots of talk about giving them the best of Germany, rather than the West Bank.

In retrospect, maybe the placement of Israel lacked a little something.

How much money do we 'give' France, the U.K., or Canada?

I think I read somewhere that we do indeed give 'most' of our outgoing funds to Israel. Is this true?

 

[aerocontrols]

Re: To Donks:

I gotta say, I think if you were to be honest you'd call Israel a "Theocratic" Democracy, since you have to be Jewish to live and vote there, or be 'Jew' living abroad. Many people are citizens of both Israel and the U.S., and vote in each election, as they see fit.

The bolded statement is false. Approximately 20% of Israel's population is non-Jewish, (15% Muslim, 2% Christian, 3% 'other' - these non-Jews are overwhelmingly the Arabs who did not flee during the 1948 war) and they can all vote.

I think I read somewhere that we do indeed give 'most' of our outgoing funds to Israel. Is this true?

No

 

[King of the Americas]

To aerocontrols:

You Wrote:

The bolded statement is false. Approximately 20% of Israel's population is non-Jewish, (15% Muslim, 2% Christian, 3% 'other' - these non-Jews are overwhelmingly the Arabs who did not flee during the 1948 war) and they can all vote.

---

*I'll conceed that. My ignorance about such exact facts is endless, it would seem. That said, 'most' if not ALL elected officials in Israel are likely Jewish, given that 80% of the voting electorate are so.

What portion of our foreign aid goes to Israel?

 

[varwoche]

Re: To Donks:

I think I read somewhere that we do indeed give 'most' of our outgoing funds to Israel. Is this true?

It's called g-o-o-g-l-e. Try it.

Despite that I also take also issue with US aid to Israel, I find your post shockingly ignorant.

 

[King of the Americas]

To varwoche:

"Ignorant" I'll give you, but "shockingly" so...?

On what scale?

 

[DaChew]

You Wrote:

That said, 'most' if not ALL elected officials in Israel are likely Jewish, given that 80% of the voting electorate are so.

The answer is most - not ALL. Again, google will take you to a list of members of the Knesset.

 

[aerocontrols]

Re: To aerocontrols:

*I'll conceed that. My ignorance about such exact facts is endless, it would seem. That said, 'most' if not ALL elected officials in Israel are likely Jewish, given that 80% of the voting electorate are so.

10 (or 12, I seem to find conflicting info) members of the 120-member Israeli Knesset are Arabs. I've no idea how many members are non-Jewish. The point is, of course, that you based your label of 'Theocratic' Democracy on a falsehood that you believe to be true.

The Philippines is 83% Roman Catholic. Turkey is 99.8% Muslim. Are they also 'Theocratic' Democracies, pending a determination of the composition of their elected governments?

What portion of our foreign aid goes to Israel?

That depends on how you count it. I suggest you research the issue.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: To aerocontrols:

*I'll conceed that. My ignorance about such exact facts is endless, it would seem. That said, 'most' if not ALL elected officials in Israel are likely Jewish, given that 80% of the voting electorate are so.

I guess the U.S. qualifies as a "theocratic democracy" (whatever the hell that's supposed to be...) too, since 'most' if not ALL elected officials in the U.S. are likely Christian, given that 80% of the voting electorate are so.

KOTA, you see all that dirt around you? Notice that the only way you can see the sky is if you look straight up?

That means you're in a hole. Stop digging.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

[B"Hitler killed between 5 and 7 million Jews!" the host screamed into the mike. "It could have also been 2.", the caller slithered.[/B]

What I don't get is why it matters? If it was 2 million or 7 million - so what?

The motivation was the same and the only thing that stopped it being more was the forcible ending of the Nazi era. Whether they were stopped after 2 million or 7 million doesn't change the nature of what they did and what they were trying to do.

Would we find the Nazi crimes more palatable if they "only" killed 2 million Jews instead of 7 million? Would it somehow absolve from guilt those involved is they were "only" responsible for the murder of 2 million people not 7 million?

 

[aerocontrols]

Did you know there was lots of talk about giving them the best of Germany, rather than the West Bank.

That would have been interesting. In the period of extreme anti-Semitism that preceded the Holocaust, one could find "Jews to Palestine" graffiti all over Europe. Many Jews did indeed go to Palestine during that period.

What makes you think they could be convinced to return to Europe (particularly the German part of Europe) after the Holocaust?

I picture a Jewish area in Germany on the Cold War border between NATO and the Warsaw Pact surrounded by a generation of Germans who had been raised to believe that the Jews were their enemies and I imagine that it's probably the only solution that would have been worse than the one we have right now. Maybe an order of magnitude worse. Maybe WWIII worse.

MattJ

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: HOW MANY Jews died...

What I don't get is why it matters? If it was 2 million or 7 million - so what?

Holocaust denial isn't really about disputing history or figures. Instead, it's an excuse to create a heated discussion where they can introduce many "facts" that inevitably lead the observer to hate and resent Jews.

For the denier, the win is not in winning the argument, but in keeping the dialogue open for as long as possible so he can "back-door" as many anti-Jew/anti-Israel "facts" as he can.

Case in point: KotA starts by talking about Holocaust Denial. He doesn't support it because he knows that would get him slapped down fast, but he uses it to introduce other ideas. We're giving too much aid to Israel, those Jews are using our guilt against us! When will this aid end?"

Even though the connection between the Holocaust and foreign aid to Israel is quickly dismissed (his entire rationalization for this thread) he persists in asking how much this aid is hoping someone else will provide the answer. His real message "We should resent Jews and Israel for this aid" gets delivered without his needing to say it outright. He's got plausible deniability against the charge of anti-Semitism, he was even able to hint in his OP that protecting Jews against anti-Semitism by stopping them from being so evil, aparantly is part of his real goal.

That's what it's all about. The denier doesn't really care about actual numbers or actual history.

 

[Random]

Re: Re: HOW MANY Jews died...

What I don't get is why it matters? If it was 2 million or 7 million - so what?

The basic argument put forward by the Holocaust deniers is that if any one thing about the Holocaust can be shown to be false, than the Holocaust obviously never happened. For example: “This historian says that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. My research shows it was two million. Therefore, no Jews were killed.” Or, “These two documents list slightly different numbers of ball bearings being produced during a certain week in 1943 at this small factory outside Bonn. Obviously, the Nazis never used Jews for slave labor.”

If they take it far enough, they can show that Hitler was a great supporter of Jewish rights and was a strong advocate for the creation of Israel. Then they will show that the nefarious Jews rewarded him by having Humphrey Bogart shoot him during a trip to Casablanca, thus proving once and for all that Jesus of Nazareth was Aryan.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: HOW MANY Jews died...

The basic argument put forward by the Holocaust deniers is that if any one thing about the Holocaust can be shown to be false, than the Holocaust obviously never happened. For example: “This historian says that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. My research shows it was two million. Therefore, no Jews were killed.” Or, “These two documents list slightly different numbers of ball bearings being produced during a certain week in 1943 at this small factory outside Bonn. Obviously, the Nazis never used Jews for slave labor.”

The Soap story is another one. Shermer talks a lot about this in "Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why do they Say it?" Fantastic book.


That said, I'm not entirely sure of the purpose of this thread. I'm rarely mistaken for a defender of the Israeli state, but the US doesn't send them oodles of money because of the Holocaust, the "Jewish lobby," or anything else. The US funds and props up Israel based on US' foreign policy in the region; prop up an ally in a region that isn't friendly to the US.

The Holocaust, guilt, etc. don't really enter into it except from a propagandic perspective.

 

[BPSCG]

Thanks, Random and Mycroft - your last two posts suddenly crystallized something for me. I never understood what was going through Holocaust denyers' heads until now. It all makes perfect sense now. They're not loonies; they're just anti-semites who use Holocaust denial as a weapon with which to beat the Jews.

Ugly.

 

[Cleon]

Thanks, Random and Mycroft - your last two posts suddenly crystallized something for me. I never understood what was going through Holocaust denyers' heads until now. It all makes perfect sense now. They're not loonies; they're just anti-semites who use Holocaust denial as a weapon with which to beat the Jews.

Well hell, I could've told you that. I thought it was kinda obvious--the basic premise of Holocaust denial, after all, is that there's a massive Jewish conspiracy to make people believe it really happened.

Though I'd have to say that "loony" and "anti-Semite" are hardly mutually exclusive terms.

 

[BPSCG]

Though I'd have to say that "loony" and "anti-Semite" are hardly mutually exclusive terms.

Yeah, anti-Semitism is loony. I meant that I didn't think they were loony in the sense that they actually believed the garbage they were peddling.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, anti-Semitism is loony. I meant that I didn't think they were loony in the sense that they actually believed the garbage they were peddling.

Ooh, interesting question. Do they believe the crap they spew or not?

I think an accurate comparison can be made to self-styled "psychics." Randi writes a good bit on this, and believes, based on his experience with the JREF Challenge, that many so-called psychics are genuinely self-deluded people. He frequently differentiates them from the charlatans who have to know they're swindling people--in particular, people like Geller and Browne.

I think the same can be said for Holocaust deniers. The majority of the small-time "foot soldiers" probably believe in it, or have deluded themselves to the point where they do. I think people like Willis Carto and Mark Weber, on the other hand, know they're selling nonsense but are trying to push an anti-Semitic agenda and play for power.