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How far will the excuses to shoot go?

Nessie said:
If he is being rushed but not attacked, he should let that go on and on and be patient until assistance arrives, or he can get a verbal response or the guys drops from exhaustion or just gives up and runs off. Are American police allowed to decide, thats enough I am fed up with this, I will now shoot you?
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My new plan for criminal success:

1. Move to Nessitopia.
2. Recruit an accomplice.
3. Get naked and act crazy.
4. Chase the cops away from my area of criminal interest.
5. Once I've moved the cops to a safe distance, my accomplice perpetrates crime unmolested.
6. I pay the small fee for being drunk and disorderly. My accomplice makes a clean getaway.
7. We meet somewhere private and split the loot. I kill my accomplice to avoid future betrayals. And to take his share of the loot.
 
joesixpack said:
Beerina said:
Never done wrestling, eh? A college-level wrestler, even a small one, will destroy a cop once the fight reaches grappling range. That's 99% of wrestling -- using tricky moves that subdue opponents, not raw overpowering.
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See, that's my thought. I know a good High school wrestler could probably take down cop. And the cop has absolutely no idea how skilled a person is until it's far too late. This is my primary objection to cops patrolling alone. Also, keep in mind, a take down on a wrestling mat can knock the wind out of you, a take down on pavement presents the very real possibility of a concussion or death.
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Lot of armchair quarterbacks here insisting they "know" what's a danger or not and how to handle it.

What are the odds any of them have ever been involved a situation more threatening or stressful than refilling the Slurpie machine at 7-Eleven?
 
Nessie said:
Yes and you do not have to be a Navy Seal to do that.

It seems that being armed is now a self fulfilling prophecy, whereby you shoot to stop people from getting your gun. The mere presence of a gun instantly escalates the situation to one where deadly force is used, without recourse to minimal use at first.
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What these people don't get is that while they think they are presenting an argument for police using lethal force, they are in fact presenting an argument for police not having guns at all.

The logic goes "we need to shoot to kill to prevent bad guys getting guns, and you can grapple someone from fifteen feet away, so therefore cops with guns should summarily execute anyone who looks at them funny within fifteen feet". They don't see that if the only alternatives are cops summarily executing anyone within fifteen feet who looks at them funny, or cops not having guns, the option of not giving the cop the gun looks relatively attractive.

This is particularly true if the cop is a campus cop who is incredibly unlikely to face armed gangsters and highly likely to face students on a bad drug trip.
 
joesixpack said:
See, that's my thought. I know a good High school wrestler could probably take down cop. And the cop has absolutely no idea how skilled a person is until it's far too late. This is my primary objection to cops patrolling alone. Also, keep in mind, a take down on a wrestling mat can knock the wind out of you, a take down on pavement presents the very real possibility of a concussion or death.
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This cop wasn't on patrol, he was at the station.
 
Robrob said:
Lot of armchair quarterbacks here insisting they "know" what's a danger or not and how to handle it.

What are the odds any of them have ever been involved a situation more threatening or stressful than refilling the Slurpie machine at 7-Eleven?
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I don't know about anyone else, but I've had 4+ police officers pointing their guns at me. Had I made a wrong move they likely would have shot me, and for absolutely nothing since I was unarmed and had committed no crime. Threatening? Yes. Stressful? I was shaking for hours afterward.
 
Nessie said:
Police officers who cannot handle a fight with a drugged or crazed man should not be police officers. Police who cannot protect their guns in a potential fight/arrest should not have guns.

The police should be prepared for and accept that their job can get physical and if they want to avoid that by using a gun as their only means of dealing with someone, they should not be in the police.

Do you favour escalation of threat or are you advocating going deadly straight away, no matter what, even to avoid a minor scuffle and maybe a slap?

Do the police only have guns? Do they not also have cuffs and batons?

Tazer, mace, what about calmness, patience, verbal skills or even in the case of a naked man a boot in the bollocks first?
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Ness, you have no idea what you're talking about wrt the bolded section above, and in this thread in general.

Added: I see the usual crew has responded, safe from their homes and never having served, so I'll leave it to you experts in UoF.
 
Babbylonian said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I've had 4+ police officers pointing their guns at me. Had I made a wrong move they likely would have shot me, and for absolutely nothing since I was unarmed and had committed no crime. Threatening? Yes. Stressful? I was shaking for hours afterward.
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1977 ~ Had a cop pointing a pistol at my head when I was 18, i threw a rock at a passing cop car after drinking all day, i ran like hell and they had cars surrounding the block within minutes, i thought i had an out going down an alley but right as i went by a stoop, a cop pointed his gun right at me, i didn't move and he was cool. i later got the crap beat out of me but i had no problem with that i knew screwed up.

Funny thing is the cop was best friends with my girl friends parents. I ended up marring her and he was at my wedding. Big smile on his face

Tim :)
 
Robrob said:
Lot of armchair quarterbacks here insisting they "know" what's a danger or not and how to handle it.

What are the odds any of them have ever been involved a situation more threatening or stressful than refilling the Slurpie machine at 7-Eleven?
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I've already expressed my lack of credentials. I don't actually have a an opinion. I was hoping an LEO could weigh in on this.
 
I knew this story sounded familiar. It took place at my alma mater in my home town. Local news says the guy was on acid. What's wrong with these kids today? Don't they know to AVOID the police at all cost?

Definitely a tragedy, but the cop was well within his rights to act the way he did.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/police-student-took-lsd-campus-shooting-172158429.html

A nude University of South Alabama freshman had taken LSD and assaulted others before he chased the campus police officer who fatally shot him, authorities said Tuesday, though the student wasn't armed and didn't touch the officer.

Mobile County Sheriff Sam Cochran said at a news conference that 18-year-old Gil Collar took the potent hallucinogen during a music festival Saturday before assaulting two people in vehicles and attempting to bite a woman's arm.

Authorities said Collar then went to the campus police headquarters, where he was shot by university police officer Trevis Austin. Austin is on leave while investigators review the shooting.

Video taken by a surveillance camera showed Collar nude and covered in sweat as he pursued the retreating officer more than 50 feet outside the building, Cochran said. Collar got within 5 feet of Austin and the officer fired once, striking the student in the chest, Cochran said.

...
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That’s when the officer drew his police sidearm and shot Collar once, striking him in the chest.
Collar “got up once more and continued to challenge the officer further before collapsing and expiring,” the report said. The officer has been placed on paid administrative leave pending an investigation.
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To me, that the guy got up again after being shot in the chest tells me the cop had good reason to fear him.
 
Hercules Rockefeller said:
I know hindsight is 20/20, but couldn't the cop have put one in his leg?
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Unless this is a very unusual force, the police I know are OFFICIALLY taught you aim for center of mass/kill shot. If you must use your weapon, you do not take chances.

I did not see anyone (may have missed it) note that the student's responses were not the normal ones of someone on LSD, They were more like crack or speed* - and people on those will charge you and will tend to not die/stop nearly as quickly as you would think with more than one bullet in them - especially from 9MM or .38. My favorite on this is a husband (in the grand old days of 2nd Ward Nashville where the dead voted religiously every election - this pair was deep in that) who was hit with 5 rounds from a .357 mag and lived on quite successfully. It's why I do not carry anything below .357 and tend to those that start at .44 and go up from there.


Leading to the possibility that what he took was contaminated or had additives.
 
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fuelair said:
Unless this is a very unusual force, the police I know are OFFICIALLY taught you aim for center of mass/kill shot. If you must use your weapon, you do not take chances.

I did not see anyone (may have missed it) note that the student's responses were not the normal ones of someone on LSD, They were more like crack or speed* - and people on those will charge you and will tend to not die/stop nearly as quickly as you would think with more than one bullet in them - especially from 9MM or .38. My favorite on this is a husband (in the grand old days of 2nd Ward Nashville where the dead voted religiously every election - this pair was deep in that) who was hit with 5 rounds from a .357 mag and lived on quite successfully. It's why I do not carry anything below .357 and tend to those that start at .44 and go up from there.


Leading to the possibility that what he took was contaminated or had additives.
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I'm not sure that's a valid reson not to try to wound. With a shattered thigh bone or pelvis you're not going any further, no matter the drug. The police where I live have several times stopped perps by wounding them. An example is the guy who tried to kill Kurt Westergaard (Mohammed Drawings). He came at the cops with an axe and was shot in the arm and leg.
 
It might be educational for those who have never found themselves on the pointy end of the stick to read the following article on the the human physiological and psychological response to perceived mortal danger.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninfour.htm
 
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