How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Needle stick injuries, blood exchange unless excessive are highly unlikely to result in disease transfer. Or how do you prose medical staff manage the risks with violent patients? It is risk of the job, just like all jobs carry some risk.

The risk is extremely low. The biggest infection risk to police is an unnoticed coughing contagious TB infected prisoner in the jail for several days.

I see cops for blood exposure incidents on a regular basis and in 20 years I have never had either a police officer or an EMS fire fighter contract a bloodborne infection.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not backing down from anything. PEOPLE WHO VIOLENTLY ATTACK A COP SHOULD EXPECT TO GET KILLED. ....

Including someone who is not aware of their surroundings or what they are doing? Should doctors and nurses take up arms and shoot patients who are confused and combative?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Including someone who is not aware of their surroundings or what they are doing? Should doctors and nurses take up arms and shoot patients who are confused and combative?

Are we talking about doctors and nurses now? What about if a kindergartner attacks a lumberjack, or a ballerina attacks Moby Dick? Imagining different scenarios involving different actors in different situations and then trying to say "aha! You advocate X when Y does Z because you said A when B does C!" is ridiculous.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are we talking about doctors and nurses now? What about if a kindergartner attacks a lumberjack, or a ballerina attacks Moby Dick? Imagining different scenarios involving different actors in different situations and then trying to say "aha! You advocate X when Y does Z because you said A when B does C!" is ridiculous.

Did you totally miss the point?

Is it not part of the police mission to protect the public? Since when is it not their responsibility to protect someone who needs protecting? Maybe someone slipped that kid the drugs. Maybe he didn't cause his own actions in this case. If so, then you have a cop who shot someone who needed protecting.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Did you totally miss the point?

Is it not part of the police mission to protect the public? Since when is it not their responsibility to protect someone who needs protecting?

Did you totally fail to read what I wrote? The police mission is to preserve order. That's how they protect the public. If an individual member of the public defies that order by, say, I don't know, getting effed up on drugs, freaking out, attacking a bunch of people, and then rushing a cop, then the cop shooting that person is fulfilling the mission: the preservation of the order that protects everybody. Once someone violates the order of society, they are not more entitled to protection and preservation than everybody else.

Maybe someone slipped that kid the drugs. Maybe he didn't cause his own actions in this case. If so, then you have a cop who shot someone who needed protecting.

And maybe a wizard put the kid under a curse! Or maybe he was suffering a brain tumor that compressed against a section of his brain. Or maybe he was being mind controlled by aliens, or maybe he was just really into a fraternity prank! Actions have consequences. You don't get a pass on the consequences because you had/didn't have particular reasons for those actions. Yes, yes, very sad. That the kid died because he took a buncha drugs and attacked people. Sad for him. Good for society in that hey, you can't just take a buncha drugs and attack people without suffering the very realistic, very expected, very reasonable consequences of doing things like that. IE, getting shot down for being a maniac running amok.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you totally fail to read what I wrote? The police mission is to preserve order. That's how they protect the public. ....

Police department mission statement example 1:

MISSION STATEMENT - It is the mission of the Gainesville Police Department to work in partnership with the community to improve the quality of life in the City of Gainesville. We will demonstrate compassion for all people and render services with respect, dignity, and courtesy. The men and women of the Gainesville Police Department will strive to protect and to support individual rights, while at all times providing for the security of all persons and all property in our community.

Police department mission statement example 2:

We the Kankakee City Police Department , are committed to serving all people with respect, fairness and compassion. Acting in partnership with the community to protect life and property, we strive to prevent crime and help preserve peace, order and safety.
With community service as our foundation, we will address problems and seek solutions with honesty and integrity. We shall maintain public respect by holding ourselves to the highest standards of performance and ethics.
The Kankakee City Police Department is dedicated to providing a quality work environment by promoting the positive development of its members through effective training, education and leadership.
We encourage, expect, and need community involvement to work toward a mutual goal of enhancing the quality of life within the community.

Police department mission statement example 3:

Mission Statement

The Police Department, in serving the people of Dallas, strives to reduce crime and provide a safe city by:

Recognizing that its goal is to help people and provide assistance at every opportunity;
Providing preventive, investigative, and enforcement services;
Increasing citizen satisfaction with public safety and obtaining community cooperation through the Department's training, skills, and efforts; and
Realizing that the Police Department alone cannot control crime, but must act in concert with the community and the rest of the Criminal Justice System.
In achieving this mission, the men and women of the Dallas Police Department will conduct themselves in an ethical manner. They will:

Respect and protect the rights of citizens as determined by the law;
Treat citizens and their fellow employees courteously and with the same amount of dignity with which they expect to be treated themselves;
Be examples of honesty and integrity in their professional and personal lives, thereby earning the public trust;
Perform their duties with the knowledge that protection of the lives and property of all citizens is their primary duty; and
Comply with the spirit and letter of the Code of Conduct.

Police department mission statement example 4:

Mission Statement
The mission of the Arlington Police Department is to promote, preserve and deliver quality services and to ensure the safety of all members of our community.

This mission is a commitment to quality performances from all members. It is critical that all members understand, accept and be aligned with the responsibilities established by this mission. It provides the foundation upon which all operational decisions and organizational directives will be based. Directives includes rules, regulations, operating policies, procedures and practices.

This mission represents the commitment of this administration to the concept of quality performance management. Members are expected to work consistently in a quality manner in the daily performance of those duties, job responsibilities, and work tasks associated with this mission. Quality manner means that performance outcomes comply with the performance standards established for the Arlington Police Department and for each associated member. Examples of performance standards include the oath of office, code of ethics, rules, policies, procedures, directives, general and supervisory orders, work productivity and behavior.

Police department vision statement example 5:

Vision Statement

We aspire to be a world-class leader in policing, a model for character, innovation, and service.We strive to protect our diverse and dynamic community with fairness, integrity, and respect for the rights of the individual.We resolve to develop a creative, forward-thinking workforce, dedicated to raising our level of excellence to meet the challenges of tomorrow.

Those are from the first page of Google hits. I see a directive to preserve order that focuses on the safety of everyone, not just protecting others from the order disrupters.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Police department mission statement example 1:

Police department mission statement example 2:

Police department mission statement example 3:

Police department mission statement example 4:

Police department vision statement example 5:

Those are from the first page of Google hits. I see a directive to preserve order that focuses on the safety of everyone, not just protecting others from the order disrupters.

Ah, yes. Mission statements. The lovely ideals of an organization that has no idea what it's for. I've worked for quite a few companies with mission statements. They none of them remember "to make money" as being the point of their existence, but it didn't make it any less true. Organizations, like people, are notoriously prone to not knowing themselves.

And you can see what you like. I see differently. The police exist to preserve order. They are authorized to use violence in doing so.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...The police mission is to preserve order. That's how they protect the public. If an individual member of the public defies that order by, say, I don't know, getting effed up on drugs, freaking out, attacking a bunch of people, and then rushing a cop, then the cop shooting that person is fulfilling the mission: the preservation of the order that protects everybody. Once someone violates the order of society, they are not more entitled to protection and preservation than everybody else....

Where's your evidence for this claim, TM? You say so ergo it is?

 

[fuelair]

Ignoring yet another heavyhanded use of loaded language, I would say I am not opposed to fatal consequences as a result of violent confrontations, regardless of the cause. Unfortunate things occur, such is life.

In this particularly case, the blame is solely on the idiot who decided to get effed up on drugs then run amok, with entirely predictable results.

In absolute fairness, IF he took what he thought was LSD and it was actually PCP or one of the effect equivalent, he had no way of expecting the drug(s) to affect him the way it did. Assuming what we know for sure what happened physically from the window part to the shooting, the officer apparently had no choice (well, except for not firing and possibly ending up dead or badly damaged)*


*which I equate with no choice.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....Assuming what we know for sure what happened physically from the window part to the shooting, the officer apparently had no choice (well, except for not firing and possibly ending up dead or badly damaged)....

All the efforts of police to increase the use of non-lethal force says your position is a false dichotomy.

 

[fuelair]

Is it as effective as their Officer spelling training?

Sorry, in an argument about a topic like this, that really is not fair nor helpful.

But, I am curious how they train a single officer without assistance to take down a person who is crazed from meth, PCP or similar, feels no functional pain, is in good physical shape/athletic in a martial art and is moving rapidly
toward him in a 10-20 week (longer?) program that covers law, police procedures, duties and regulations and all the other things a good officer needs to know. Not the equivalent of an actual martial artist - but good enough for the general run of bully-boys and bad-'uns. Which our lad was clearly not.......

 

[TragicMonkey]

Where's your evidence for this claim, TM? You say so ergo it is?

Do you mean, am I going to go to a bunch of stupid websites and quote things at you in an attempt to do one of the perennial messageboard hargy-bargy arguments? I don't work that way. I believe I have properly defined the function of police in an orderly society. If you disagree, fine. I don't care what you think, I'm not trying to win converts. I only participated in this ridiculous thread because I found the woe-is-me bleating of all the people of Scotland extremely annoying. I certainly won't stoop to the level of bickering-by-url that all the people of say Albania seem to enjoy.

Not everything is a "claim".

 

[TragicMonkey]

In absolute fairness, IF he took what he thought was LSD and it was actually PCP or one of the effect equivalent, he had no way of expecting the drug(s) to affect him the way it did.

"Your honor, I had no idea the consequences of my illegal actions would lead to anything bad. Please let me off."

Interestingly enough, the current story in Something Positive has one of the regular characters employed to watch people who want to get effed up on drugs. She's paid to keep them out of trouble while they're under the effects. A practical suggestion, but I guess the sort of person who takes unknown drugs is not the sort of person to plan ahead anyway.

 

[Joe Random]

Not everything is a "claim".

Evidence?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you mean, am I going to go to a bunch of stupid websites and quote things at you in an attempt to do one of the perennial messageboard hargy-bargy arguments? I don't work that way. I believe I have properly defined the function of police in an orderly society. If you disagree, fine. I don't care what you think, I'm not trying to win converts. I only participated in this ridiculous thread because I found the woe-is-me bleating of all the people of Scotland extremely annoying. I certainly won't stoop to the level of bickering-by-url that all the people of say Albania seem to enjoy.

Not everything is a "claim".

Refusal to support your assertion duly noted.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Refusal to support your assertion duly noted.

Shrug. I'm capable of forming my own arguments, without relying on what someone else published on a website. Do you never use your own mind to form theories and ideas and opinions? Is it always a matter of comparing the number of links online? Whatever did people do before the internet, to come up with ideas and theories?

Insisting on conducting every discussion as if you're squabbling with CFLarson is intellectually crippling. You aren't limited to what other people have said before.

 

[RedRatSnake]

Shrug. I'm capable of forming my own arguments, without relying on what someone else published on a website. Do you never use your own mind to form theories and ideas and opinions? Is it always a matter of comparing the number of links online? Whatever did people do before the internet, to come up with ideas and theories?

Awesome ~

Tim

 

[RemieV]

"Your honor, I had no idea the consequences of my illegal actions would lead to anything bad. Please let me off."

Interestingly enough, the current story in Something Positive has one of the regular characters employed to watch people who want to get effed up on drugs. She's paid to keep them out of trouble while they're under the effects. A practical suggestion, but I guess the sort of person who takes unknown drugs is not the sort of person to plan ahead anyway.

You were clearly never in high school.

They are called "Trip Sitters", and it's the friend who isn't taking any. Every person I knew then who did drugs had a Trip Sitter.

 

[RedRatSnake]

They are called "Trip Sitters", and it's the friend who isn't taking any. Every person I knew then who did drugs had a Trip Sitter.

LOL ~ We had a different names for those that didn't take anything, and it sure wasn't anything like Trip Sitter ~

Tim

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Police department mission statement example 1:

Police department mission statement example 2:

Police department mission statement example 3:

Police department mission statement example 4:

Police department vision statement example 5:

Those are from the first page of Google hits. I see a directive to preserve order that focuses on the safety of everyone, not just protecting others from the order disrupters.

Nice links. The safety of everyone overrides the safety of one, especially when that one is the threat to everyone else's safety. Yes or no?