How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Silly Green Monkey]

Nudity means that muscles are clearly visible. Naked means unarmed, he had two arms and muscles that showed he could use them.

 

[Nessie]

As has been repeated over and over, this cop wasn't out on patrol. He was responding to an incident directly outside the station. Perhaps he felt there was no time to run to wherever his baton and pepper spray was being kept.


Oh, I thought you were talking about the incident in the OP.

But that means he attended only to shoot. The time taken to get his baton and cuffs could have saved a life. I say that delay would have been worth it.

 

[WildCat]

But that means he attended only to shoot.

No, it doesn't.

Are you really claiming he went outside with the intent to shoot the guy?

 

[Nessie]

On reflection I've concluded that yes, I like living in a country where people expect attacking a cop will be likely to get themselves killed. I think its better for public order that way, as opposed to people thinking it'll be safe and fun to attack a cop because the cop won't hit back hard, and will rush to nuture any scraped knees with bandaids and Bactine. The point of police is to preserve order, not to grant happy endings to the criminally idiotic and idiotically criminal antics of people who are deliberately disrupting that order.

It does not stop them. So you would kill people with mental health issues and those on bad trips?

 

[Nessie]

Anyone can sucker punch you if you let them approach you too closely and you have a can of mace in one hand and a microphone in the other.

I'm not a cop.

I would have to make a citizen's arrest upon seeing him assault the victim.

But the point is that "small and unarmed" does not equal "not dangerous".

Hypothetical:

If this kid had continued to beat this victim after he was down, the victim could legally pull a concealed gun and shoot the kid, in most US states.

And, in the states where the victim might not be allowed to shoot his attacker, I doubt a jury would convict if they see the video.

Please answer the question. How would you have arrested the kid who hit his teacher? How would you have arrested the nude student on drugs?

 

[Dcdrac]

I was trained to use non armed techniques to bring down an armed suspect, it is possible to do without resorting to a fire arm.


The London Metropolitan Police have an Officer Saftey training programme which is designed to train officers in such techniques.

 

[Nessie]

Here's something else we have to consider when dealing with people like this. Folks who are into using a lot of drugs are often at risk for other "risky lifestyle" conditions like hepatitis and AIDs.
Getting involved in a down-and-dirty rasslin' match with these folks often involves getting cut, scratched, or bitten. (I have scars...) This generally means a considerable period of time worrying about the chances of infection, testing, and worrying as well about one's family.
Without any particular evidence, I'm convinced to this day that's what motivated much of the Rodney King thing... He would not comply and the officers didn't want to lay hands on him.
Only a few years earlier, I don't think the officers would have hesitated to just "swarm" the guy and wrestle into cuffing position. That incident, as I recall, was during the height of the initial AIDS panic...

Needle stick injuries, blood exchange unless excessive are highly unlikely to result in disease transfer. Or how do you prose medical staff manage the risks with violent patients? It is risk of the job, just like all jobs carry some risk.

 

[Giz]

It does not stop them. So you would kill ... those on bad trips?

Sometimes it is probably necessary. Sometimes it is not.

People could avoid the risk by not taking the damn stuff in the first place. If they do take it, go rabid, attack members of the public and then assualt, chase, pursue and assualt again a police officer… then they may get shot. Primary responsibility for that sad state of affairs lies with the drug taking psycho (yes, I am sure he is a nice guy when not on drugs… but he chose to take the drugs, so he is responsible for their effect on him)..

 

[TragicMonkey]

It does not stop them. So you would kill people with mental health issues and those on bad trips?

Ignoring yet another heavyhanded use of loaded language, I would say I am not opposed to fatal consequences as a result of violent confrontations, regardless of the cause. Unfortunate things occur, such is life.

In this particularly case, the blame is solely on the idiot who decided to get effed up on drugs then run amok, with entirely predictable results.

 

[Giz]

I was traind to use non armed techniques to bring down an armed suspect, it is possible to do without resorting to a fire arm.


The London Metprpolitan Police have an Officer Saftey training programme which is designed to train officers in such techniques.

Is it as effective as their Officer spelling training?

 

[Nessie]

I was trained to use non armed techniques to bring down an armed suspect, it is possible to do without resorting to a fire arm.


The London Metropolitan Police have an Officer Saftey training programme which is designed to train officers in such techniques.

I am sure all UK forces are the same. US police appear to be different and can use a gun to arrest in instances where such seems inappropriate.

UK training may well save lives if given to US police, so long as they make sure they take their baton and cuffs out with them or have them to hand for emergency use.

 

[Nessie]

Ignoring yet another heavyhanded use of loaded language, I would say I am not opposed to fatal consequences as a result of violent confrontations, regardless of the cause. Unfortunate things occur, such is life.

In this particularly case, the blame is solely on the idiot who decided to get effed up on drugs then run amok, with entirely predictable results.

No loaded language. So you do advocate shooing people high on drugs or with mental health problems. And it is their fault.

I hope no one ever spikes your drink or you have a mental health episode.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No loaded language. So you do advocate shooing people high on drugs or with mental health problems. And it is their fault.

I hope no one ever spikes your drink or you have a mental health episode.

So you think the zombie face eating guy should have been ignored, after all he was clearly in this camp and you don't want to do anything about it.


See strawmen are fun!!!

No one thinks it is the best solution it is just unavoidable in some situations. You clearly think the same way, after all you are not here arguing against your own armed police units. How do you reconcile their unnessessary weapons?

 

[Bikewer]

Needle stick injuries, blood exchange unless excessive are highly unlikely to result in disease transfer. Or how do you prose medical staff manage the risks with violent patients? It is risk of the job, just like all jobs carry some risk.

Exactly right. I've never been afraid to lay hands on someone if need be. But at the height of the AIDs panic, people were terrified, and that included police officers. I recall seeing one of those early "Cops" episodes from somewhere down South... A domestic disturbance resulted in one of the participants getting stabbed. He managed to make it to his car before police arrived.
That's when they learned he was "positive".... You'd have thought it was an Al Qaeda terrorist attack with biological weapons. The entire house, the yard, and the car were all surrounded with barricade tape and the "hazardous materials" guys were called in wearing full-bore "moon suits".
Just a few years later the responding paramedics would be just dousing the blood spills with bleach and that would be it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Please answer the question. How would you have arrested the kid who hit his teacher? How would you have arrested the nude student on drugs?

I can only make a citizen's arrest, and then only if the state allows it.

In many states, a citizen has a lot of leeway to make a citizen's arrest.

Wiki has a good example with California's Citizen's Arrest rules, which will probably shock people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States

However, if you want me to pretend to be a cop, then I would handle each case according to how the suspect interacts with me, and according to what I have available to assist me.

What information I have will also be important. Do I know what the each subject has just done or not, for example?

The kid is fully clothed, so could easily be concealing a weapon.

However, you are not making a serious request of me, so my answers really do not matter.

 

[TragicMonkey]

No loaded language. So you do advocate shooing people high on drugs or with mental health problems. And it is their fault.

I hope no one ever spikes your drink or you have a mental health episode.

All the people of Scotland constantly try to personalize the argument in what is obviously a personal bugbear about guns. All the people of Scotland are resorting to hyperbole and strawmen, and attempted appeals to emotion. All the people of Scotland can invent as many unlikely scenarios and hypothetical situations as they like, but the fact remains that for the benefit of public order it is best that there be consequences for violently attacking cops.

 

[Nessie]

So you think the zombie face eating guy should have been ignored, after all he was clearly in this camp and you don't want to do anything about it.


See strawmen are fun!!!

No one thinks it is the best solution it is just unavoidable in some situations. You clearly think the same way, after all you are not here arguing against your own armed police units. How do you reconcile their unnessessary weapons?

I was responding to a statement that shooting is how to deal with people who assault the police and pointing out a flaw.

Having some armed police is necessary. This thread is about the lame excuses that are used to justify the use of a gun.

 

[Nessie]

I can only make a citizen's arrest, and then only if the state allows it.

In many states, a citizen has a lot of leeway to make a citizen's arrest.

Wiki has a good example with California's Citizen's Arrest rules, which will probably shock people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States

However, if you want me to pretend to be a cop, then I would handle each case according to how the suspect interacts with me, and according to what I have available to assist me.

What information I have will also be important. Do I know what the each subject has just done or not, for example?


The kid is fully clothed, so could easily be concealing a weapon.

However, you are not making a serious request of me, so my answers really do not matter.

I am being serious as you advocate shooting the student, so would you just go and arrest or what?

 

[Nessie]

All the people of Scotland constantly try to personalize the argument in what is obviously a personal bugbear about guns. All the people of Scotland are resorting to hyperbole and strawmen, and attempted appeals to emotion. All the people of Scotland can invent as many unlikely scenarios and hypothetical situations as they like, but the fact remains that for the benefit of public order it is best that there be consequences for violently attacking cops.

Of course there are consequences for assaulting the police under Sec 41 Police Scotland Act.

Are you now trying to back down from your suggestion that people who attack the police should expect to be shot?

This thread is about lame excuses not about gun use itself as you try and change the topic.

 

[Nessie]

On reflection I've concluded that yes, I like living in a country where people expect attacking a cop will be likely to get themselves killed. I think its better for public order that way, as opposed to people thinking it'll be safe and fun to attack a cop because the cop won't hit back hard, and will rush to nuture any scraped knees with bandaids and Bactine. The point of police is to preserve order, not to grant happy endings to the criminally idiotic and idiotically criminal antics of people who are deliberately disrupting that order.

A little reminder of what you said. All I want you go.co is confirm if.mentally sick people or students who a bad trip on drugs are included in the group you think should expect to be killed.