How far have we come with homosexuality?

[Pardalis]

For someone who doesn't like homosexuals, you sure are very interested in the subject.

 

[Thunder]

So... How do you know that someone is born in that way?

there is evidence of many gay men actually having brain chemistry being more similar to women, than to straight men..for one.

what evidence do you have that homosexuality is a choice?

none. or you can try to prove me wrong..and provide the scientific research and evidence.



...P.S. The idea that in Africa, the Middle East, South-east Asia, etc etc.....people would actually CHOOSE to be a member of a group that is routinely harrassed, murdered, raped, and imprisoned..is insane.

You CANNOT tell me that folks in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria, etc etc...actually choose to put themselves in harms way.

I have little to no doubt, that if homosexuality was indeed a CHOICE, there would be few to NO gays on this planet.

 

[AvalonXQ]

For someone who doesn't like homosexuals, you sure are very interested in the subject.

Says someone on the JREF forum -- a place for people who don't like woo but are very interested in it.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Can you address any subject related to the thread or you will help other users to divert the subject?

Your whole post is completely off-topic.

Feel free to report it, if you think so. Unfortunately, since it was a direct reply to your posts, it seems that your posts must also have been off-topic.

Says someone on the JREF forum -- a place for people who don't like woo but are very interested in it.

I hate to admit it, but you've got a point, there.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I just never understood the argument that homosexuality is a choice. I mean, homosexual BEHAVIOR may be a choice, but since when do we choose who we're attracted to?

If I'm attracted to someone, I'm attracted to them. I don't DECIDE to be attracted to them. For instance, a common topic of conversation when I was a single woman was men who are "good on paper," but there's just no spark there. Men who you WANT to want...but you just don't. There was a male friend of mine who was just in love with me, he even proposed. My parents loved him and really wanted us to get together. He was the whole package...smart, financially successful, kind, physically active and strong (he'd been a marine), plenty of common interests, nice looking...but there was just no spark. I WANTED to like him, because well, us being together simply made sense and he was full of admirable qualities. But I just didn't love him. I mean, I loved him as a friend, but I wasn't IN love with him. And no amount of me hoping I would made me fall in love with him.

I don't even understand how choosing who we are attracted to or love would even be possible? How would that work? You feel your emotions, you don't choose to have them. You could choose to suppress them, and marry someone you PRETEND to love while choosing NOT to marry someone you do love. But you don't actually chose which of those people you love and which you don't.

I don't even know how that would work. How do you choose to have a crush on or fall in love with a person? I don't choose who I get crushes on. If that were the case, I'd have never developed a crush on someone I knew was unattainable, because what would be the point if there was no chance of pursuing a relationship? For that matter, why do I get crushes on men occasionally now that I'm married and know that acting on any feelings is a no go because I am happily married? If we could choose who we develop such feelings for, I would have stopped developing any feelings for anyone else as soon as I entered into a monogamous relationship. Now I certainly am choosing not to ACT on these feelings, but I am not choosing to have those feelings in the first place.

When I met my husband, it was an extremely inconvenient time for me because at the time I was pursuing a career as an international aid worker, and he COULDN'T move because his job, so I had to give up my entire life as I knew it. But what can I say except I fell in love with the guy, depsite my making a concentrated effort not to. What's more, my husband is a homebody while I am extremely active and social, so being with him, frankly, puts a major crimp in my lifestyle. We have little common interests. He was as BAD for me on paper as my male friend had been good for me. Falling in love with him was the last thing I wanted. But it just happened. I didn't choose to. You're not going to convince me we choose who we like or who we love because then why didn't I love the guy who would have been great for me at a very good time to pursue such a relationship, and why did I love the guy who I had little in common with who I met at a very inconvenient time?

Says someone on the JREF forum -- a place for people who don't like woo but are very interested in it.

I agree as well this is a fair point.

 

[Thunder]

I just never understood the argument that homosexuality is a choice. I mean, homosexual BEHAVIOR may be a choice, but since when do we choose who we're attracted to?

the idea that we can simply switch on or off our attraction to women or men, is insane and stupid.

if bigots and haters don't like the idea of same-sex or anal sex, that's fine.

but then they have to also attack all the straight folks who like to give it or take it up da bum.

 

[Mirrorglass]

the idea that we can simply switch on or off our attraction to women or men, is insane and stupid.

if bigots and haters don't like the idea of same-sex or anal sex, that's fine.

but then they have to also attack all the straight folks who like to give it or take it up da bum.

Yes. Thank you, Thunder. Quite eloquently put.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Feel free to report it, if you think so. Unfortunately, since it was a direct reply to your posts, it seems that your posts must also have been off-topic.

No reports.

I agree and your logic is correct.

From now on I will read more and answer less.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I just never understood the argument that homosexuality is a choice. I mean, homosexual BEHAVIOR may be a choice, but since when do we choose who we're attracted to?

I don't think the idea is that it's an instant, person-by-person decision. I think the idea is that, over time, by what we expose ourselves to, what we choose to observe and reflect on and appreciate, and how we reinforce or negate certain feelings and inclinations, we can change the nature of our attraction.
What I hear from older men and women who have been successful in long-term relationships, is that over time you "pattern" to your mate/partner -- the person they are becomes more attractive and others are mainly seen as attractive due to similarities to your partner. When I was younger I often saw this happening after as little as six months to a year with an exclusive partner -- my attractions started to change to better reflect that person as a standard.
And this can be seen particularly starkly in fetishes, where paying attention to a particular form of erotic media or play, even if originally seen as odd, can eventually cause you to associate those elements with arousal.
Sexual attraction is not something that's set in stone for anyone -- it changes over time, in ways that can be directed by what one chooses to watch and think about.
I'm not disagreeing that instinct can vary from person to person and plays a role -- but I do disagree with the idea that our sexual psyche is set in stone, completely independent of our habits and experiences. There's more to it than that. People do change, and people can act to influence those changes.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I don't think the idea is that it's an instant, person-by-person decision. I think the idea is that, over time, by what we expose ourselves to, what we choose to observe and reflect on and appreciate, and how we reinforce or negate certain feelings and inclinations, we can change the nature of our attraction.
What I hear from older men and women who have been successful in long-term relationships, is that over time you "pattern" to your mate/partner -- the person they are becomes more attractive and others are mainly seen as attractive due to similarities to your partner. When I was younger I often saw this happening after as little as six months to a year with an exclusive partner -- my attractions started to change to better reflect that person as a standard.
And this can be seen particularly starkly in fetishes, where paying attention to a particular form of erotic media or play, even if originally seen as odd, can eventually cause you to associate those elements with arousal.
Sexual attraction is not something that's set in stone for anyone -- it changes over time, in ways that can be directed by what one chooses to watch and think about.
I'm not disagreeing that instinct can vary from person to person and plays a role -- but I do disagree with the idea that our sexual psyche is set in stone, completely independent of our habits and experiences. There's more to it than that. People do change, and people can act to influence those changes.

Nope, don't buy it. If that were true, than if an individual who was raised in a culture where homosexuality is completely treated negatively and they receive only negative reinforcements, if this individual avoided all gay activies, if this individual only dating the opposite sex...they would not be gay because they only enforced heterosexual experiences and habits. But there are plenthy of people who do these things and still remain homosexual.

Take my grandmother's friend. She's in her 80s. She was raised as a strict Catholic, believed that homosexuality was completely evil. She had no exposure to homosexuality except in extremely negative connotations becuase she lived in a time and place where there were no gay characters on TV, gay people couldn't safely be openly gay, etc. She only ever dated men and she married a man. Yet now, pushing 90 and in a retirement home, she admitted to my grandmother she has never been attracted to men, ever. She has always been a lesbian and her feelings never changed on this. She actually is a huge factor in changing my own grandmother's attitudes towards homosexuality.

Same thing with my husband's uncle. Raise in a rural conservative Christian culture. Homosexuality was never anything but evil. He didn't know any gay people, had no exposure to gay culture as he lived in a rural farming community. The only information he ever had on homosexuality was the "it's evil" diatribes in church. Only ever dated women. Then in middle age he met a man that no only was he attracted to, he loved, and he finally broke down and told his family that he'd been gay his whole life and had suffered terrible depression over it to the point that he was suicidal (after all, he believed himself to be evil). Luckily for him, his family was able to see past their religious ideology and accept him and realize that they KNOW him. It was hard at first, but now my hubby's grandmother has a picture of him and his partner up on her mantle with all the other family portraits.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Nope, don't buy it.

It's clearly a case of difference in experience, then. I've never known anyone whose sexual inclinations and preferences didn't change over time. Apparenly, you've never known anyone whose sexual inclinations have changed.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Take my grandmother's friend.

This is kind of what I figured -- we can't land on the same page about this, because our experiences are so different. You say people can't change, that sexual inclinations are hardwired into peoples' identities. My own sexual inclinations have evolved drastically over the years; this is also true of others that I am close to.
I wonder if we'd have the same difference in experience if we were talking about ice cream flavors.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

deleted, duplicate post

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

This is kind of what I figured -- we can't land on the same page about this, because our experiences are so different. You say people can't change, that sexual inclinations are hardwired into peoples' identities. My own sexual inclinations have evolved drastically over the years; this is also true of others that I am close to.
I wonder if we'd have the same difference in experience if we were talking about ice cream flavors.

Nope, never said that. I don't think everyone is totally gay or totally straight. There are plenty of people who fall in between. Some people fall on further ends of the spectrum. For instance, when I was younger, I often found myself attracted to women. But I never pursued a relationship with one and over time that sort of faded away. Now, though it happens occasionally, I am very rarely attracted to women. Before I only used to somewhat be attracted to men more than women, now I am far far far more attracted to men.


But I think there are people who can't change because they are further along the spectrum. My husband and I have had this conversation before. He has no problems with gays or bisexuals and so has no reason to lie, and he insists he has never even been remotely attracted to men, not even a little bit. He has only ever been attracted to women. So he is on the "totally straight" end of the spectrum.

And frankly, even if you don't fall on the totally gay end of the spectrum, and can be attracted to either men or women, if you simply fall in love with someone of the same sex, why should you try to change? If I had met a woman while I was more attracted to women who I fell in love with, I don't see why I should have avoided that just because I, personally, *could* have gone either way. I just never got into that situation, but if I had, I wouldn't have felt any reason why I shouldn't have been in a relationship with a woman just because I also was attracted to men as well.

My own sexual inclinations have evolved drastically over the years; this is also true of others that I am close to.

So you and your friends are like me, bisexuals, who are attracted to both men and women. I agree that with people like us, which sex you prefer can indeed change over time, and the degree to which you prefer that given sex also can change. And also, what you expose yourself to can affect this change. But Avalon, just because YOU are bisexual and can decide, "you know what, I'm going to stick with the ladies" does not mean that EVERYONE is bisexual. There are people who are honestly straight and they've never been, and never would be, attracted to the same sex. And there are people who are honestly gay and aren't attracted to the opposite sex no matter what they do. Or at least, they are so far along the spectrum that it would be extremely unlikely they would ever come across a person of the opposite sex they would be attracted to.

I actually had never thought of this before, but I think this is a big insight for me as to why some people DO believe they can change. It's a matter of bisexuals like you thinking EVERYONE is bisexual. Since YOU can choose between men and women, you think EVERYONE can, and can work to develop a preference over time. I just don't agree that that is the case. I don't think everyone is like you. While some people ARE pliant on their sexuality and can be affected by their environment, not everyone is. Or else why would I know people who have never been intimately exposed to or pursed anything other than heterosexuality...yet are still gay? I also have a friend who is a male ballet dancer. He's a guy, but he works in an industry where the vast majority of men are gay. His friends are almost all gay. He goes to gay clubs with said friends. He lives in a gay heavy neighborhood with a gay room mate. He is far more exposed to homosexual male environments than straight male environements. Yet he's never developed even a remote interest in men. It works out well though, because being the only straight guy in his dance troop, he gets a monopoly on the female attention, and he's never wanting for a girlfriend.

You really are falling into a well worn trap "All the people I am close to are bisexual" (and frankly, I do find that quite surprising that EVERYONE you are close to not only is bisexual but admits to it), therefor, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD must be bisexual and be able to chose between men and women. Just because everyone YOU have discussed this with is that way doesn't mean everyone in the world is. It just means you are suffering from small sample size bias.

*edit - I am assuming when you say "sexual inclinations" you mean in terms of gender preference as that is what is being discussed. If you're NOT saying that you are bisexual, but just mean, "the kinds of things that excite me sexually have changed"...but that your sexual orientation itself HAS NOT changed, then I don't really see how you can argue that the same can't be true for homosexuals just in the other direction, they are only attracted to the same sex the way you are only attracted to the opposite sex.

So if by sexual inclinations you just mean your tastes ASIDE from your sexual orientation have changed, that still doesn't prove anything, because

1. While there are certain sexual inclinations apart from sexual orientation I have that have changed, there are others that have not. I also find it extremely unlikely that you do not have one single sexual preference that has remained a constant for you your entire life. I think it's likely that SOME of your inclinations have changed and some are not. Just because some of your given inclinations CAN change doesn't mean they ALL can, that there isn't a single one that is so deeply ingrained in you it's never going to change.

and 2. If you are talking about inclinations other than sexual orientation, you would have to prove that sexual orientation is the same as whatever sexual inclination you have in mind. Unless you could prove the mechanism that controls your sexual orientation is the same mechanism which controls whatever inclination it is that you have in mind, your point is moot. And as a matter of fact, you CAN'T do that because though genetics MAY be a factor, we don't know yet what makes a person gay. So since we don't know what causes homosexuality, you can hardly say, "well, I used to like blondes and now I like redheads. That means you can like same sex and change to like the opposite sex" because you can't prove that these two are related, that changing your preference in someone's looks or bedplay = you can change your sexual orientation.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Actually, my attitude has more to do with a failure to accept that gender is more than a cultural fiction.
My problem is that all I can hear is, "I have never been attracted to a member of [culturally constructed subgroup X], not even a little bit". Most people aren't primarily attracted to sexual organs and secondarily biological characteristics; they're attracted to certain manners of speaking and dressing and acting, certain paradigms of behavior and outlook that they and their culture have associated exclusively or primarily with "men" or with "women". I don't think it's possible for any attraction to men-only to be hardwired unless it's a hardwired attraction to just male-exclusive pheromones and penes; I don't expect that that reflects very many people. Being strongly attracted to our cultural construct of maleness is just that -- and I don't see it any differently than being strongly attracted to a cultural construct of gothness or geekiness or fashionableness.
I'm not saying that everyone I know is bisexual; I'm saying that everyone I know has changed what specific traits attract them in people over time, whether or not those traits have been put into a specific box we label "masculinity" or "femininity".
And perhaps this does say something about my own sexuality, as well as the way in which I see gender. Personally I just think I've made it a little further outside the indoctrination on gender than some others. I fail to see the need to define myself by what gender I'm attacted to because I fail to see the need to define people primarily by their gender -- and I find the idea that others are so wrapped up in cultural doctrine as to be so constrained, to be a bit baffling.
Ostracizing people for being homosexual baffles me, and I consider it to be a symptom of our over-genderized culture. The difference is, I feel exactly the same way about the attempt to wear sexuality as an identity. I think it's all still just buying into a gender model that woefully outdated and restrictive. "Gay" and "straight" labels play into that too, and are just as fictional.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Actually, my attitude has more to do with a failure to accept that gender is more than a cultural fiction.
My problem is that all I can hear is, "I have never been attracted to a member of [culturally constructed subgroup X], not even a little bit". Most people aren't primarily attracted to sexual organs and secondarily biological characteristics; they're attracted to certain manners of speaking and dressing and acting, certain paradigms of behavior and outlook that they and their culture have associated exclusively or primarily with "men" or with "women". I don't think it's possible for any attraction to men-only to be hardwired unless it's a hardwired attraction to just male-exclusive pheromones and penes; I don't expect that that reflects very many people. Being strongly attracted to our cultural construct of maleness is just that -- and I don't see it any differently than being strongly attracted to a cultural construct of gothness or geekiness or fashionableness.
I'm not saying that everyone I know is bisexual; I'm saying that everyone I know has changed what specific traits attract them in people over time, whether or not those traits have been put into a specific box we label "masculinity" or "femininity".
And perhaps this does say something about my own sexuality, as well as the way in which I see gender. Personally I just think I've made it a little further outside the indoctrination on gender than some others. I fail to see the need to define myself by what gender I'm attacted to because I fail to see the need to define people primarily by their gender -- and I find the idea that others are so wrapped up in cultural doctrine as to be so constrained, to be a bit baffling.
Ostracizing people for being homosexual baffles me, and I consider it to be a symptom of our over-genderized culture. The difference is, I feel exactly the same way about the attempt to wear sexuality as an identity. I think it's all still just buying into a gender model that woefully outdated and restrictive. "Gay" and "straight" labels play into that too, and are just as fictional.

I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Because you say not everyone you know is bisexual. But then you said that thinking we should be attracted to someone based on gender is a result of cultural conditioning. That would indicate to me that you DO believe that all humans are bisexual and that a preference for one sex over another is completely based on cultural and environmental factors. Is that what you mean? I'm not trying to give you a hard time or anything, just want to make sure I'm accurately understanding your position.

Besides, we agree on the key point anyways, which is whether or not it's possible for a person to only be attracted to a specific gender doesn't really matter anyways. I do agree with you absolutely that in the end, such concerns over sexual orientation are "buying into a gender model that woefully outdated and restrictive."

I also agree that I don't think someone's entire identity should be wrapped around their sexual orientation. But I also understand why it is that way for some homosexuals, whose identity is so wrapped up in their sexuality. They are treated by so many heterosexual people in this country like the only thing that counts about them is their sexual orientation...so it's not suprising to me when some of them act accordingly.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Because you say not everyone you know is bisexual. But then you said that thinking we should be attracted to someone based on gender is a result of cultural conditioning. That would indicated to me that you DO believe that all humans are bisexual and that a preference for one sex over another is completely based on cultural and environmental factors. Is that what you mean? I'm not trying to give you a hard time or anything, just want to make sure I'm accurately understanding your position.

My position is that the majority of things human beings are sexually attracted to aren't tied directly to sex; they are tied culturally to gender. A "gay man" is attracted to some of the many things we have culturally tied to masculinity; a "straight man" is attracted to some of the many things we have culturally tied to femininity. While it's possible that actual anatomy makes up some part of it, I believe it to genuinely be a small part for most people in modern society.
If a straight man gets "fooled" by a transvestite, you might say it's because he assumed the existence of sexual organs that weren't there. I think it's more likely to be because the transvestite exhibited behavioral and aesthetic traits that he's genuinely attracted to -- which in this case were tied to different sexual organs.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I also agree that I don't think someone's entire identity should be wrapped around their sexual orientation. But I also understand why it is that way for some homosexuals, whose identity is so wrapped up in their sexuality. They are treated by so many heterosexual people in this country like the only thing that counts about them is their sexual orientation...so it's not suprising to me when some of them act accordingly.

Personally I think it's less about being labeled "the gay guy" (after all, these factors apply very strongly to those who stay closeted) as it is the overwhelmingly heteronormative culture and the constant reminders entailed by having different reactions than you're "supposed to" have. Even if nobody else can see it, we know when we're different and when the cultural expects us to want/feel X and we don't. That's very easy to internalize.

 

[bikerdruid]

How do you know that it's just the way someone is born and not a choice?
.

i am queer. i never chose to be queer.
did you choose to be straight? (i am assuming that you are straight.)

 

[bikerdruid]

Because, as I said before, nearly all the gay men I know have said that at one point (or more points) in there life they have wished they weren't gay.

my life would have been a lot easier if i had been born straight.
however, having been born queer, it has been a very difficult path.
i would certaibnly not have chosen to be queer.