How Does JE Receive Messages?

[renata]

Hi g8r,

Yes, I agree with you that some of LKL messages are vague (not that I've seen any professed cold reader get anything comparable--including Ian Rowland, viewed live, where his mediumship demo yielded....zero hits, not even "vague" ones).

I -do- disagree that all LKL hits were vague messages. For example, (and I realize others disagree ), I consider "cigarettes in the coffin--not his brand" an excellent hit. [/B]

Can you link to the transcripts of the additional LKL interviews?

As to Ian Rowland, I would like to remind you, that not only did he get some hits, as you and I were in the same audience, but at leasr one other member of the audience agreed with me on that. In addition, presenting an admitted cold reader to an audience of skeptics at Caltech is a slightly different circumstance than a medium to an audience of believers.

Here were my original notes

Cold reading- that was a tough one, as he was sitting in front of a skeptic crowd. He threw out 4 threads, and I believe if it had been a more trusting crowd, he would have gotten spectacular hits on all. However, the interesting part was not so much the hits, but his entirely nimble maneuvering, making use of near misses into great hits. It was fascinating. Once again, it is impossible to do it justice here, but here were the threads
1. Charles, older man, mustache, connection with military. Now in a crowd of 300, there damn well better be a connection, but nobody bit on that- it did not phase him one bit. He just let Charles stick around
2. Conversation with Elizabeth. One woman said she had recently spoke with Elizabeth, at which point he fairly accurately described Elizabeth's appearance and said they had a professional relationship. This is where it got funny- the person said Elizabeth was her apartment manager, but I think Ian thought she was her work manager, because he talked a bit about raises and work changes. The woman appeared to validate most of his guesses- good reading
3. Recent financial troubles- also a hit and a prediction. Not as general as it might sound, the sitter validated a few things
4. Car trouble in tires- also hit, the sitter validated shock problems, and Ian pretty much guessed all.

Here is a portion of your reply, where you seem to acknowledge Elizabeth hit, which you forgot above.

However, I just do want to highlight what you mentioned, that his two attempts at "mediumship cold reading" didn't come off at all. "Deceased Charles or Charlie" got no hits, despite being an "uncle/grandfather"....or eventually "maybe a family friend", "having a military connection...." Nothing.

And "Elizabeth" was originally supposed to be someone deceased, too, until the woman claimed her as someone living.

He quickly dropped "mediumship" and switched to just "psychic readings" --about a job and money--predictably cold reading-as-you'd-expect-it, and those did seem to fit whoever he gave them to (probably also fit many others in the audience with work/money problems, as well).

Very entertaining stuff. Just no "cold reading like JE". None at all.

A portion of my reply

That is true. There are many reasons for that, including
1. He is, as he says an admitted fraud
2. This was a skeptical audience
3. He has scruples.

I believe that if this was a believer audience, who did not know he was a magician, and if did not care about their feelings and loss, he would have done as well or better than JE. Certainly his performance last night, even with the above constraints was as good as or superior to JE's undedited readings on Larry King.

And here is a comment by another JREFer who was there, Electric Monk

I'll put my vote in for audience difficulties on the cold reading portion of the program. Despite asking everyone to put themselves in the place of an earnest audience, the general familiarity of the local skeptics with the tricks of cold reading had a lot of them laughing loudly every time he tried one of the standard dodges. Kinda spoiled the mood, I think.

The sitter who responded to the "tires" prompt was the husband of Tanja Sterrmann, Mike Shermer's office manager and lovely assistant at TAM. Since TAM, I've spoken to them both a few times and can report that they're both quite sharp-minded individuals, and that he is a very lucky guy.

As to whether it was at all like John Edward- perhaps you would like to familiarize yourself with this comment by Luker
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/sho...24370&perpage=40&highlight=tire*&pagenumber=1

Anyone want to list John Edward's big misses? Misses where the info was fairly specific but got no response?

I happened to be home for lunch yesterday and saw a couple of big misses on one lady.
{snip=r}
3. At the seminar I attended John picked someone out of the crowd and said, "Congratulations on the new tires." The man shrugged his shoulders clearly indicating he knew nothing.
{snip=r}

Of course I could not let it pass, hence the comment by me

New tires? That is hilarious because Ian Rowland in his cold reading demo said something similar, about new tires. Of course JE was getting it psychicly... I alsways thoughts spirits were quite the kidders.

So JE somewhat like Rowland, at least.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I guess JE can't win.

Not in entertainment venues he can't. The only way JE can convince skeptics that he's real is to get tested scientifically by CREDIBLE scientists. The JREF challenge is also another venue that will raise a few brows. Right now, JE is in a position where he can't convince skeptics but can certainly profit off of the believers.

Financially, he's winning big time.

 

[RonSceptic]

3. The compromise is the 2/3rds or 75% who are anonymous guests of the primary person who gets through on the hotline.
They are identified to CO 1 to 2 hours before the taping begins
and, if read and or attended (within a year) before, they will be denied admittance as well.

Unless JE reads every single person in the audience it does not matter that some of them may be anonymous. Prior knowledge of a quarter of the audience leaves plenty of scope for hot reading. After all he would only need two or three good readings for the show to be considered a success.

 

[Instig8R]

Unless JE reads every single person in the audience it does not matter that some of them may be anonymous. Prior knowledge of a quarter of the audience leaves plenty of scope for hot reading. After all he would only need two or three good readings for the show to be considered a success.

You also need to consider that each taping of CO yields enough readings to make 5 or more shows. Therefore, it isn't as though JE is facing a different audience every time he sets foot on the stage. He is with each audience for several hours and the audience remains seated in the same seats throughout the taping. Many shows are then created from the one taping. (Even the so-called "newer" episodes of CO still feature readings that were performed in the first season. This can be determined from the stage and set design.)

Most of JE's "special hits" occurred during CO's first season, when the gallery contained between 75 and100 people. Assuming that each person brought 3 family members, this made hot reading much easier in those days. This means that it is no more than 25 families (or groups of 4). This is an easy number of people for JE to be able to track. Surely he reads at least 12 of those 25 families, and the better readings get edited and broadcast on TV.

Many "special hit" readings were for local high profile families, like Kelly and Acompora. The readings of these families appeared on different episodes of CO, but that doesn't mean that they could not have been in the CO gallery on the same day. However, even if they were read on the same day, each was unique enough that one would not be easily confused with another.

 

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

I'm a bit fuzzy on these LKL readings. Please help me out here.

Are you saying that there are a lot of problems with this format (bad phone lines, bad transcripts, spirits don't come through, too short readings, etc), but at the same time you can pluck out a hit?

Shouldn't you judge the hit the same way as the misses? How come the hit is not influenced by bad phone lines or a short period of time to do the reading in (snippets)?

If it goes bad, it's because of bad (insert explanation here).

If it goes well, it's because of spirits coming through.

Did I understand it correctly?

 

[neofight]

neofight,

I'm a bit fuzzy on these LKL readings. Please help me out here.

Are you saying that there are a lot of problems with this format (bad phone lines, bad transcripts, spirits don't come through, too short readings, etc), but at the same time you can pluck out a hit?

Shouldn't you judge the hit the same way as the misses? How come the hit is not influenced by bad phone lines or a short period of time to do the reading in (snippets)?

If it goes bad, it's because of bad (insert explanation here).

If it goes well, it's because of spirits coming through.

Did I understand it correctly?

Claus, from what I've seen on these boards, you rarely, if ever, understand anything correctly, so why should this time be an exception? I'll explain it yet again, just to be nice.

My position is most assuredly not that JE is unable to get any decent hits on LKL. My position is that due to the reasons you mentioned above, these readings are not, for the most part, comparable to the longer, unrushed readings that you can see at seminars and on "Crossing Over". They're just not.

So again, I never said that JE can't get any hits under these circumstances. My objection is that due to the fact that readings are limited to a minute or so, the opportunity for a quality reading is limited as well.......neo

 

[neofight]

(Even the so-called "newer" episodes of CO still feature readings that were performed in the first season. This can be determined from the stage and set design.)

Just as an aside, Instig8R, we are now in week #2 of the brand new 3rd season. New set, new readings. .....neo

 

[TLN]

New set, new readings.

Same fiction.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Same fiction.

Yep, it amazes that people like Clancie and Neo still believe that JE has superpowers when the "agreement" gives JE and the Crossing Over show the legal power to fictionalize all events.

Oh well, lack of critical thinking ability IS why they are believers.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by thaiboxerken

Yep, it amazes that people like Clancie and Neo still believe that JE has superpowers when the "agreement" gives JE and the Crossing Over show the legal power to fictionalize all events.

Oh well, lack of critical thinking ability IS why they are believers.

Well, I guess we all have our own "amazement quotient", tbk. I'm still amazed that you post as much as you do about JE without ever trying to read much about mediumship, past or present. If it isn't easily available to glance at on TV, I guess you're just not interested in doing the work it takes to learn more.

And I find that amazing!

 

[thaiboxerken]

Well, I guess we all have our own "amazement quotient", tbk. I'm still amazed that you post as much as you do about JE without ever trying to read much about mediumship, past or present. If it isn't easily available to glance at on TV, I guess you're just not interested in doing the work it takes to learn more.

Hardly. One does not have to read about pixies to understand that pixies are fiction. Mediumship is fiction, that's evident. All it takes is one person to prove me wrong, one medium to withstand scientific scrutiny. So far, not one has to date and I predict that none ever will.

There is NO scientific evidence that supports the notion of souls, spirits or afterlife. Yet you'll take emotion over science anyday and call it real. Now THAT'S amazing.

 

[neofight]

Why not have random seating (in numbered seats) in the gallery, and then, draw a number to select the person to be read?

The system would not be perfect, but it would certainly have more integrity than it has now.

Hello, Instig8R! I don't think that system would necessarily work all that well, seeing as mediums claim to be drawn to certain people so as to deliver these messages from the other side.

The system you describe would force JE to ignore any and all of the "loud" energies that he was getting. In other words, it would require that he disregard the natural pull that he was feeling, and instead, he would have to try to focus on the person whose number was randomly called. I think that could be entirely counter-productive to the process.

Even in the personal one-on-one readings that JE has done in the past, there have been times when he was not able to connect with any spirit energy, and he had to apologize and tell the clients to come back another time to try again. Don't you think it's possible that some of these chosen sitters might be extremely disappointed if after being lucky enough to win a lottery of sorts, no spirit came through for them?......neo

 

[Instig8R]

Actually, neo, I think the "loud energy" excuse is a big lie. At the Westbury seminar, JE wasn't able to connect with energies at times, and he just moved onward and it was later edited it out. The same could be done if a "lottery-type" system of readings was implemented in the CO gallery.

Also, I find it obnoxious when, in the post-reading segments, the people who got readings seem to be bragging about how loud and determined their dead relative was, to bypass all those other spirits and "come through" for them. Sort of like a "My dead mom is better than their dead mothers".

 

[Instig8R]

Just as an aside, Instig8R, we are now in week #2 of the brand new 3rd season. New set, new readings. .....neo

Just as an aside, neo, we are now in week #2 of the brand new 3rd season. New set, old readings.

I watched a few shows last week. There were no new readings, just 2 new interviews, with 2 new authors, hawking 2 new books. As for the readings, however, it was old stuff -- the same old stuff from last season and the season before -- recycled into collages of snippets of old, old readings. These old, mediocre readings were re-edited to make them look better than they were the first time around, and even set to new music.

I guess you could call these creations "theme" shows, in a way. One episode was about the strange things that people (women, really) bring to the gallery. Here is a brief rundown:

1. John asked the audience if anyone had been drinking (for courage) before the show, and a woman held up a tiny unopened bottle of booze in her purse -- her husband was a liquor salesman... and JE got credit for a hit.

2. Then, there was deceased NYC firefighter Kevin Prior's mother, who wore her son's shield number on her necklace, backwards. JE didn't know that she did so, but he still got credit for a hit.

3. Also, JE called out (in the direction of a bunch of fat women) if anybody had Cookie Monster, but they all said "no". However, a female from the other side of the room said she had a chocolate chip cookie in her purse, and JE was credited with yet another hit.

Then, in another episode, JE showed how healing and insightful his readings are. He called out into the gallery for someone who had passed from cirrhosis of the liver. A woman claimed that it could be her dad. JE correctly sensed that her dad was an alcoholic, opined that they didn't have a good relationship, didn't communicate, etc. ...and JE got credit for the hit.

The best reading of the week goes to Patti, whose child was stillborn. This was a sad case. This unfortunate woman went into premature labor during her 8th month of pregnancy, and the doctors stopped the labor so that she could carry to full term. She did carry a few weeks longer, and the child died. However, she gave this information to JE, not the other way around. Then, fortified with this information, JE said to her: "You had a premonition about this child's death, didn't you", and the woman said "yes". However, after having to be admitted to the hospital for premature labor, this would be a pretty reasonable premonition... yet, JE got credit for the hit.

Yup, the new season is off to a great start. I guess you haven't been watching.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Instig8r

Also, I find it obnoxious when, in the post-reading segments, the people who got readings seem to be bragging about how loud and determined their dead relative was, to bypass all those other spirits and "come through" for them. Sort of like a "My dead mom is better than their dead mothers".

Hi g8r,

Just have to say for the record that I don't remember seeing any of the kind of bragging that you describe above. I've heard people talk about their relatives saying a quick hello and then thoughtfully bringing through other energies for other gallery members, but I don't remember the competitive bragging thing at all.

As for different energies coming through in different ways....I only think of the seance RC and I went to with Brian Hurst. Brian seemed to connect with some sitters very strongly, others...okay, and several not at all, including one woman who had seen him once before.

If he'd used a lottery system the odds are good that his best readings of the evening never would have happened--in fact, he might have gotten nothing at all.

 

[Instig8R]

Clancie, I kid you not: I can recall a few post-reading segments that really annoyed me, with various sitters saying things like: "Yep, that's just like my mom, pushing everybody else out of the way", or "My dad just had to get out ahead of everybody", "So and so, he/she just ran right ahead of the bunch". ...All in all, really stupid comments.

As for the "loud energy" stuff, it doesn't hold water as far as JE is concerned. He has bragged far too often about his powers. He has even bragged that he can connect with famous dead people if he is reading a relative of theirs. If JE cannot connect at will for the sitter, he has no business doing private readings, and he certainly has no business doing those LKL readings on the telephone.

 

[CFLarsen]

So again, I never said that JE can't get any hits under these circumstances. My objection is that due to the fact that readings are limited to a minute or so, the opportunity for a quality reading is limited as well.......neo

Please stop misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say you "never" said that JE can't get any hits under these circumstances. I only pointed out that since you dismiss the readings for being inadequate for a number of reasons, it is very unfair of you to point to the hits.

Either a reading has adequate conditions, or it doesn't. It seems very much like you are selecting your data: If it doesn't work, it is because of inadequate conditions. If it does work, then it's because JE talks to dead people.

 

[voidx]

I don't know if you'd consider it a "consistent theory" or not, but I've heard psychics attribute it to highly developed intuition-like skills (the "sixth sense" idea. Something we all have, but to different degrees.)

Your right I don't consider it a consistent theory, its barely a theory at all. It doesn't explain anything. I could have come up with the "sixth sense" idea myself, is that all the detail that can be had for this? And if its like highly developed intuition, perhaps its just intuition. I've yet to see where its required, and necessary to posit and add the paranormal onto that explanation, and no one seems to have any well drawn out theory with any details. Its merely accepted for the process' to work, so no one pays much attention to the "details".

I don't find this far fetched. For example, I don't consider myself "psychic", but sometimes I do "know" things that I haven't been told. Like yesterday, waiting for my car servicing, I "knew" the woman sitting there was a teacher. Nothing mystical about it, but sometimes your "intution" just kicks in.

It's not far fetched if you don't spend anytime thinking about it, or ask for details. Its vague beyond belief when you do. I couldn't even say if it was far fetched or not, because no one knows enough about how it seems to work in order for me to posit a clear opinion, so what makes you so sure? As for the example, did you verify the woman was a teacher? You "knew", but did you ask? And even so, deductive reasoning and yes normal intuition could easily do this. I work with computers, I can spot an IT guy seven miles off. We don't all look like the stereotype, but those of us that do are often in the field. We're wandering further into grey area here, away from the paranormal if you ask me.

Don't you have that happen to you sometimes, voidx? That you "know" something with certainty even though an outside observer would not be able to determine exactly why or how you know it?

Yup, and guess what, sometimes my absolute certainty, is "absolutely" wrong. Intuition is often wrong, cold-reading is often wrong. And dare say JE is often wrong, or at least so vague, that most people don't bat an eye at all his misses, or narrowings and broadens whilst fishing for information.

I think good cold readers would be highly intuitive, btw. Some of them (Mark Edward; Ian Rowland) have said as much themselves, that they often don't exactly understand how they "know" or sense the hits they get, or where they come from.

So whats your point here? That you seem to think that they would posit a paranormal explanation for these things they "know" but can't tell where they came from? I bet they think its just deductive reasoning and intuition and luck, and it most likely is.

 

[voidx]

Well, here's the key difference that I would say: psychics (as opposed to "psychic mediums") don't claim to get any information at all from spirit communication.

Well that's a nice dodge. Someone mentions JE tosses out information on pregnancies, I ask for more details on how this process would work, I get a process' from Neo that seems rather inconsistent, I ask again how its possible, its then related that some "psychics" get the pregnancy info from "psychic abilities" which must be some form of seeing into the future or something because if they do not communicate with spirits, and its not telepathy from the sitter, where the hell does it come from? If they get it "intuitively", where are they getting it "intuitively" from? So "psychics" process' for obtaining pregnancy info is vague. "Psychic mediums" whose potential "psychic abilities" have already failed because of the above stated vagueness, can also communicate with the spirits about pregnance info, but the process' doesn't seem consistent her either as no one knows for sure if spirits talk to a babies/fetus' spirt, or how all that works. So "psychic" or "psychic medium" doesn't matter, I've not been offered a logical valid explanation for either process', and thus how JE "does" it. I tend to think the "psychic" and "psychic medium" bit just gets trotted out to muddy the water, or to provide outs. "Psychic medium explanations fall flat, hmmm perhaps they got it through normal psychic means, of which all psychic mediums have to varying degree's, and now their not getting info from spirits, but rather are getting it "intuitively"". I'm sorry but this amount of spin control on a topic makes my head spin.

But knowing things "intuitively" is not exactly the same as saying you get information "telepathically" by reading the mind of the sitter.

I would say getting something intuitively is how things actually happen, and things gotten telepathically is how we might like to believe they happen but I digress. Yes their not the same, as in telepathy is communication with a spirit, or with the sitters mind, intuitively is....what is it again?

From what I've read (and you might find Dr. Judith Orloff's book, "Second Sight" interesting on the subject of becoming a psychic and respected practicing psychologist--and she's also a medium), many psychics don't exactly know how or why their process of high-level intuition works better than someone else's.

They don't know why it works better than others because they don't know how it works period. And the part about her being a medium an a psychologist is pretty pointless, I'm not sure what you meant by highlighting that point. Many professional people have their beliefs in things, ADC and telepathy being a few of them. It does nothing to change the fact that they ALSO have no idea how it works, and have no solid evidences for it either.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I don't know if you'd consider it a "consistent theory" or not, but I've heard psychics attribute it to highly developed intuition-like skills (the "sixth sense" idea. Something we all have, but to different degrees.)

That's crap, there is no sixth sense, none at all.