How Does JE Receive Messages?

[CFLarsen]

Claus, don't you think it's about time you stop trying so hard to make Clancie and me look bad every chance you get? Your own record of accuracy is sadly lacking, and your memory is probably a lot more faulty than all of ours put together, judging from your many, many, many misstatements.

Anyhow, for your information, the "wrong brand of cigarettes in coffin" hit, was from LKL, and not "Crossing Over" as you claim. Here's the transcript within one of Gryphon2's (Clancie's) old tvtalkshows posts, which she addressed to you, Cantata/Claus......

I stand corrected.

So, even though I still believe that the quick telephone readings are not the ideal format for mediumship readings, that doesn't mean that JE never gets accurate information from spirit.

Wrong. Even here, he doesn't get "accurate" information. He asks.

In the US, there are a lot more cigarette brands than, say, in Denmark. The chances would therefore be considerably higher.

Is ClausFLarsen a mean and nasty bully who can't ever say anything nice about believers? You be the judge. ....neo

Why is it nasty to point out that Clancie is not a skeptic?

Actually, Ed, there have been a few times when JE did get a last name, but I don't make the claim that it happens very often.

Examples, please? It could be interesting to find out if JE had any opportunity to hot read the sitters.

As far as the idea of the consciousness surviving physical death, and love truly being eternal, well, I guess I just don't consider that concept quite as banal as you seem to, Ed.

Do you have any evidence that it does?

LOL Well, Ed, if all this is for real, you won't have much choice in the matter, and you'll be absolutely flabbergasted, and probably pleasantly surprised despite yourself, when friends and family members who have pre-deceased you, are there to help you make the transition to the other side.

Maybe you are in for a nasty surprise. Imagine believing this bunk for the better part of your life, all for nothing? The time you wasted believing this crap, and not noticing how wonderful the world is, without these false beliefs?

And who is "asking" for more than life, Ed? I have no problem with the "dead is dead" idea. I just think that mediumship provides some evidence that is not the case.........neo

What evidence??

Thank you, neo, for once again setting the facts straight for Claus.

We all make mistakes. I fess up to them. Do you?

His misrepresentations of what I say--and the accusations based on those misrepresentation--are too exasperating for me to keep dealing with, as you know .

I have invited you so many times to point out where I was wrong. You have declined this, and repeats the lie, until it becomes truth. Well, in your mind.

But I appreciate you still "hanging in there" to bring out the truth of these things, repetitive and tedious though that process often gets.

Leave the work to others, that's right.

 

[voidx]

I repeat, I would think, but I can't possibly know, that the information about a pregnancy would have to be coming from some consciousness that was conveying it to JE, most likely the same one that was communicating to JE at the time. (Like that example of the woman's mother coming through and bringing up her daughter's pregnancy) Since JE is a medium, and I have come to believe in the concept of mediumship, then this is what I would assume is the source of that information. Not the fetus itself.

You completely miss my point. Ok so you believe the information comes from the spirit. How does the spirit KNOW there's a baby? It must be able to either sense its "soul", or communicate with it. We're talking about an example where the birth mother doesn't yet know she's pregnant, yet the spirit does. How do they come by this information? Where do they gleam it from. To say time doesn't necessarily apply on the "other" side is the biggest vaguest cop-out I think I've seen to date.

Well yes. I realize that. With regard to your "how soon in the development of the fetus" question, I don't think it really matters since I doubt that past/present/future time restraints apply to the other side.

You realize it, so you then believe it? What have you been shown that makes you doubt the time restraints on the other side? Where did you get this idea from? I've never seen you state it before now. I'm sorry, this is just a massive logic whole to drive pretty much whatever you want through.

Yes, I agree. I think it's quite possible that it could. Providing it's dead. .....neo

Hmmm interesting. So only dead "souls" can communicate? You miss my point. Spirits which are only "souls" communicate with mediums, "souls" with physical bodies. A baby is a new "soul" with a new physical body, they should be able to communicate with whatever based on these rules no? So when does the babies "soul" start transmitting stuff out? You say the spirit probably gives the information about the baby, that the baby's "soul" couldn't communicate unless dead, and so far haven't answered how the the spirit knows about the existence of the baby. But then also spirits communicate with "alive" "souls" like mediums. So only baby "souls" are disallowed from communicating with spirits unless their dead? The process is starting to look like swiss cheese I'm sorry.

No, this suggests that mediums can only know whatever information it is that others who have crossed over wish to convey to him, and we do not know the extent of the knowledge they possess.

Which means you can make up whatever process you like, and we've no way of verifying it whatsoever. Oh but wait, Clancie says some physic mediums say they can get information telepathically from live people, so are you sure its ONLY know what people that have crossed tell them?

 

[voidx]

Hi voidx,

Well, not commenting on the specifics of the readings (which I didn't see), but getting information about pregnancy is something that psychics say they could do, too.. So it's possible that some information a "psychic medium" (i.e. both) receives could also be received through psychic skills, not ADC. Just an observation, not necessarily for JE, but I have heard other mediums explain some of their information being received in this way. [/B]

Saying they could do it does nothing for me I'm sorry. How do they do it? Any consistent theory between the psychics that claim this ability? Perhaps one a little more logical than Neo's? To me this just adds a new and interesting out. I'd be interested though too, do they admit that they are getting information from the sitter's mind, rather than a spirit? Do they say this during the reading? Do they have examples? Do they know for sure what comes telepathically from the sitter, and what comes from spirits? How is the telepathic message different? A growing level of unanswered questions about the specifics of any of these process' in my opinion.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by voidx

Saying they could do it does nothing for me I'm sorry. How do they do it? Any consistent theory between the psychics that claim this ability?

I don't know if you'd consider it a "consistent theory" or not, but I've heard psychics attribute it to highly developed intuition-like skills (the "sixth sense" idea. Something we all have, but to different degrees.)

I don't find this far fetched. For example, I don't consider myself "psychic", but sometimes I do "know" things that I haven't been told. Like yesterday, waiting for my car servicing, I "knew" the woman sitting there was a teacher. Nothing mystical about it, but sometimes your "intution" just kicks in.

Don't you have that happen to you sometimes, voidx? That you "know" something with certainty even though an outside observer would not be able to determine exactly why or how you know it?

I think good cold readers would be highly intuitive, btw. Some of them (Mark Edward; Ian Rowland) have said as much themselves, that they often don't exactly understand how they "know" or sense the hits they get, or where they come from.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by voidx

I'd be interested though too, do they admit that they are getting information from the sitter's mind, rather than a spirit? Do they say this during the reading? Do they have examples? Do they know for sure what comes telepathically from the sitter, and what comes from spirits? How is the telepathic message different? A growing level of unanswered questions about the specifics of any of these process' in my opinion.

Well, here's the key difference that I would say: psychics (as opposed to "psychic mediums") don't claim to get any information at all from spirit communication.

But knowing things "intuitively" is not exactly the same as saying you get information "telepathically" by reading the mind of the sitter.

From what I've read (and you might find Dr. Judith Orloff's book, "Second Sight" interesting on the subject of becoming a psychic and respected practicing psychologist--and she's also a medium), many psychics don't exactly know how or why their process of high-level intuition works better than someone else's.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think good cold readers would be highly intuitive, btw. Some of them (Mark Edward; Ian Rowland) have said as much themselves, that they often don't exactly understand how they "know" or sense the hits they get, or where they come from.

Intuition is nothing more than subconscious observations of the actual physical world using the 5 senses.

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, here's the key difference that I would say: psychics (as opposed to "psychic mediums") don't claim to get any information at all from spirit communication.

But, as we have seen, these people can switch at a moment's notice, depending on where the session takes them. So, no real difference at all.

But knowing things "intuitively" is not exactly the same as saying you get information "telepathically" by reading the mind of the sitter.

How do you know that people who are intuitive aren't using telepathy? Since you don't know how telepathy works, how can you rule this out immediately?

From what I've read (and you might find Dr. Judith Orloff's book, "Second Sight" interesting on the subject of becoming a psychic and respected practicing psychologist--and she's also a medium), many psychics don't exactly know how or why their process of high-level intuition works better than someone else's.

Being a psychic is not being telepathic, then? This contradicts what neofight claims.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by thaiboxerken

Intuition is nothing more than subconscious observations of the actual physical world using the 5 senses

Fine, tbk. I don't really see that the semantics of it really matter as much as realizing the effect.

So then we agree that some people are able to use their five senses cumulatively, subconsciously, however this happens exactly...to perceive things about other people better than the rest of us do.

 

[Ed]

Intuition is nothing more than subconscious observations of the actual physical world using the 5 senses.

Like a cop doing an interrogation

 

[dingler44]

I think some of you might be completely missing the point. The fact that this hit was "sports" or "Mets" related is not what made it a decent hit.

What made it a good hit was that JE "took" us downstairs into the basement, and told us where we could expect to see a specific item.

2 floor home, JE has 50/50 odds. 3 floor home he gets 1/3. I'll gamble my money on those odds any day. JE would too... especially since he can distract from, cover up or redirect his misses.

 

[Instig8R]

2 floor home, JE has 50/50 odds. 3 floor home he gets 1/3. I'll gamble my money on those odds any day. JE would too... especially since he can distract from, cover up or redirect his misses.

Most Long Island houses have basements. Most of the homes in the development where the dead boy lived are high ranches and colonials, which feature laundry rooms in the basement areas.

I would be more impressed with JE identifying Mets memorabilia in the basement area if we were also shown that there was no such baseball memorabilia in other parts of the house. However, since this family was very sports-oriented, it is likely that there would be sports stuff in other rooms, too -- not just the basement.

As for JE's so-called remote-viewing tour of the Kelly home, perhaps it would have been more impressive if JE didn't have advance notice that the family would be in the CO gallery that day. After all, JE could have recognized the family from the news coverage of their tragedy. He could have known who they were, where they lived (10 miles away from his home, btw), and how the boy died.

When there is an anonymous ticketholder system for the CO gallery audience, along with a no-editing format, I'll attach more significance to this type of "hit".

 

[Jeff Corey]

I know a large number of people around here that have family rooms in the basement, with sports trophies, posters and pennants on display. There are a lot of Mets (and Giants, even some Yankee) fans here.
Now if he said the LI Ducks, that would be more surprizing.

 

[Iamme]

I am with Insig8R and Jeff. And, I have always been skeptical when JE 'reads' a fellow New Yorker...for a host of reasons.

I grin when JE brings up stuff to some New Yorker, about some restaurant/pizza connection, as just one example. I also conjure up images in my head of JE talking to the potential sitter back stage, or in advance of the show, in a voice like Marlon Brando in The Godfather, making a deal with them.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Inst8r:

When there is an anonymous ticketholder system for the CO gallery audience, along with a no-editing format, I'll attach more significance to this type of "hit".

How do you suggest CO implements the no repeat rule if such a system were enacted? JE would then stand accused of having read the person before.

1. If somebody gets through on the hotline and they were repeaters they won't send them a new ticket and the slot can go
to somebody who was never there before -- at least for a year;

2. If somebody was read before and gets through on the hotline they will not send them a ticket, ever. Banned for life. And the slot can go to somebody who was never there and never read before.

3. The compromise is the 2/3rds or 75% who are anonymous guests of the primary person who gets through on the hotline.
They are identified to CO 1 to 2 hours before the taping begins
and, if read and or attended (within a year) before, they will be denied admittance as well.

 

[thaiboxerken]

When there is an anonymous ticketholder system for the CO gallery audience, along with a no-editing format, I'll attach more significance to this type of "hit".

SG brings up some good points. I'll attach significance to JE's hits when he can do them during a JREF challenge or CSICOP test.

 

[Instig8R]

Why does there need to be a no-repeat visit rule on CO? Not everyone in the CO Gallery is read, are they? Besides, there isn't a no-repeat rule in effect for seminars or for private readings.

Most importantly, JE himself says that whoever is supposed to receive a reading will receive a reading.

The CO line is busy, constantly, on the first Saturday of the month, so it is next to impossible to get through once, let alone twice. The likelihood of a double appearance is nil, so there is no valid reason why an anonymous (lottery-type) ticket system cannot be implemented.

If JE is a genuine medium, the spirits will choose who receives the readings and who does not. If the spirits want to deliver messages to the same people 3 times or more, I expect they can do so. If it gets boring for the TV audience, well... the producers can just edit it out, right?

Why doesn't JE trust the spirits not to keep reading the same sitters if they somehow get into the gallery for a second time? After all, JE read Dante, the Cameraman -- and Dante still has his job, is still permitted in the studio, and hasn't been read a second time (and if he has, it hasn't been broadcast on TV).

 

[SteveGrenard]

Why does there need to be a no-repeat visit rule on CO? Not everyone in the CO Gallery is read, are they? Besides, there isn't a no-repeat rule in effect for seminars or for private readings.

Most importantly, JE himself says that whoever is supposed to receive a reading will receive a reading.

The CO line is busy, constantly, on the first Saturday of the month, so it is next to impossible to get through once, let alone twice. The likelihood of a double appearance is nil, so there is no valid reason why an anonymous (lottery-type) ticket system cannot be implemented.

If JE is a genuine medium, the spirits will choose who receives the readings and who does not. If the spirits want to deliver messages to the same people 3 times or more, I expect they can do so. If it gets boring for the TV audience, well... the producers can just edit it out, right?

Why doesn't JE trust the spirits not to keep reading the same sitters if they somehow get into the gallery for a second time? After all, JE read Dante, the Cameraman -- and Dante still has his job, is still permitted in the studio, and hasn't been read a second time (and if he has, it hasn't been broadcast on TV).

I guess JE can't win. Apparently on more than one occasion people have been read twice (in the past) and people with nothing better to do than exercise their speed dial finger have been there on multiple occasions within one year. It is not fair to those who havent gotten in once and it is not fair to those who have never been read. Clearly without imposing physical
barriers to these, C.O. has no other control over this, nor does
J.E.

Insofar as editing out duplicate readings, this does not solve the fairness issue and costs the production a great deal of money with cameras rolling footage that will never be used. If you think its just a couple of dollars worth of beta or one inch tape, wrong. It easily costs CO thousands of dollars an hour to do a taping.

In public venues where people are paying for tickets the bill is footed by the public, not the producers. In addition these venues are not (usually) taped and scrutinized by home viewers and skeptics who would jump all over JE if he read somebody twice on air. I don't think he can consciously rely on the spirit communicator to defer or forgo communication in this manner if they had the opportunity so this was a silly and facetious
suggestion. We know nothing about what JE tells his camerman from his departed communicators off air.

The fact is, in answer to critics, he imposed these rules but it has, as you indicate, opened up other avenues for accusatory remarks
where hot reading is concerned even though only a smaller % of the information he gets may be publicly available. The balance then then is attributed to cold reading, warm reading and wild or informed guessing. Have we left anything out?

 

[Clancie]

When I saw JVP last year in a seminar, he read someone in the audience who had been read before on "Beyond". Even though he said he didn't remember her, knowing that took away from any credibility the reading might have had. The "not twice" rule on CO seems good to me--also to give more people a chance to get through since, as g8r says, its very difficult.

I'm not really sure how they could have 100% anonymity and still give out admission letters in advance. Without at least one of the people's names to reserve seats--and an idea of how many were coming--how would random admission work?

I suppose they could assign numbers and people could identify themselves by number at the door. But when people travel so far--as they often do--they want to be certain they will get in when they arrive--and to have something in hand in advance.

Also, a number system could become complicated if people tried to claim they had been given a number in advance when they really hadn't (even complicated numbers could be overheard in line and guessed at). And a number that was dictated to you on the phone could be easy to misplace, too.

I think JE does it this way for the same reason he doesn't answer the critics--because the current system is practical and works well and if he changed it, the people who think he's a fraud now would still think he's a fraud anyway. It would be more headaches for the CO staff--and its audience--but the criticism that he was cheating somehow wouldn't change.

So...just not worth it.

 

[renata]

So, even though I still believe that the quick telephone readings are not the ideal format for mediumship readings, that doesn't mean that JE never gets accurate information from spirit.

Neo,

Previously you said, regarding your refusal to comment on my LKL reading hit count

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870039166&highlight=*snipp*#post1870039166

No, actually. Although I am very appreciative of all the work renata did on breaking down those LKL transcripts, I do not consider such reading "snippets" to be of much use in evaluating JE's mediumship abilities. So it's not that I didn't notice what messages were wrong, I just never checked out that thread, since it's basically useless, imo.

It seems your evaluation of usefulness of information a spirit gives JE varies with success of the hit.

Can someone link with the transcript of LKL interview in full, not just a single reading. We already saw how plucking a single good reading (the Timothy reading) out of a a host of abysmal readings does not represent the work of an evening accurately. Or, as a Russian saying goes even a blind pig gets an acorn sometimes.

 

[Instig8R]

I'm not really sure how they could have 100% anonymity and still give out admission letters in advance. Without at least one of the people's names to reserve seats--and an idea of how many were coming--how would random admission work?

Hi ya, Clancie!

If the existing system of giving out tickets cannot be changed, then why not devise a better system of who gets a reading?

Why not have random seating (in numbered seats) in the gallery, and then, draw a number to select the person to be read?

The system would not be perfect, but it would certainly have more integrity than it has now.