How does a theist decide which beliefs to have?

[M.H.Mubarak]

Can you tell us why it is that you are so convinced of this? You appear to believe this quite strongly.

How am I so sure that the soul is real? In essence, you are asking me for empiricale evidence that the soul exists as a "real object" in our universe, as opposed to being a fabrication of human conception. A fairy tale, as some posters here would wish to call it. Nespa?

Knowledge derived from experiment and observaltion is equally valid for subjective reasoning as well as objective reasoning. In the parlance of objective reasoning, we are dealing with the identificaction and measuring the characteristis of an object, which can further be recorded and categorized and validated by subsequent experimentation.

Currently, we are able to measure [or at least estimate] the existence and size of cosmic rays, which leave only a visibe track in a chamber of a specialized medium. Perhaps, nano-technology will advance to the sub atomic level, and discover a sub-sub atomic stage where we will be able to detect and entire realm of waves or particles that are the warp and woof of the fabric of the soul, and the etherial worlds of the "unseen". We are trapped by our own limitations.

Every human being possess intelligenge and language skills, as do many other species, with the abilitiy to communicate amongst one another. What distinguishes Mankind from other species is the ability to perceive a thing, give it a name, measure it, and to record and categorise it.

We also possess immeausrable qualities, which are also found in other species,
such as love, hate, fear, jealousy, and pride. On a higher level we have compassion, mercy, and forgiveness. We have developed tests to measure intelligence as well as the general and specific realms of knowledge of our species. But, how do we measure love, hate, compassion, fear, jealousy,and pride? How do we measure compassion, mercy, and forgiveness? We measure them against the amount of good or harm that is effected on us. To this extent we have ascribed laws to benefit and protect our society.

Mankind takes two positions on the matter of Law: That there is an Absolute Spiritual Reality, within and apart from the animal nature of our species which govern us; and those that deny that there is a higher reality. Rather, it is just the strength or our animal instinct and drive to survive, that governs us.

To the latter grouping, there is no empiricle way to prove the existance of the Spirit. However, part of the definition of something which is empiricle is the process of observaion and experimentation. An individual can experience what we call a paranormal experience. It can happen more than once to an individual. An individual observes and experiments with these recurring "events", and records and categorizes their content, and draws a conclusion as to the nature of this experience. One can seek out others who have had similar experiences and evaluate them collectively, to reach a more conclusive determination and veracity of its nature.

For example, one day my wife was on the computer chating with someone, and discovered that she was experiencing images in her mind's eye. She began to inquire if the person with whom she was talking, wore glasses, had a certain colour of hair, whether the room she was in was a certain colour, and if there was an open window next to her, and if she was on the second floor of a building as she could see a market store, looking down from the window, next to a grove of palm trees. Amazingly, each query was answered with an affirmative answer. My wife then asked her where she lived, and she replied, Singapore. Needless to say, both my wife and this woman were freaked out a bit. This type of event began to happen more and more, on a frequent basis, so my wife went to the Library to research this type of event, to come to the understanding that she was experiencing remote vewing, and "Reading" people.

So it is with "Spiritual experiences". The more one experiences these events and researches them, the clearer they perceive the relation between man and spirit and the inter-connectedness of all things. In another post I responded to you with the analogy of a hologram, as a scientific example of understanding of the inter-connectednes of all things:

"The Creation of the Universe: The Seaven heavens and the corperal envelope of expanding galaxies; The Unseen and the Seen; the Unmeasurable and the Measurable: all follow the Laws established by the Creator. All it's elements exist simultaneously and in synergy[like an orchestra]. The best analogy that exists today to describe this is the analogy of a holographic emulsion, which can hold a multitude of packets of visual and non visual data. Every point in this emulsion contains the total 'image' of the universe."

A holorgam of a three dimensional object is generated when an object is exposed to two different beams of colomnated light [laser] from two different angles of incidence. This sets up two spherical wave paterns boucing off the object. The resulting pattern of overlapping waves is captured on a special photographic emulsion. Now, once the object is removed, exposing the emulsions to the same laser frequencies and at the same angles of incidence, the standing wave pattern of the object is generated, to form the three dimensional image of the object. One of the properties of this emulsion, is that if it is cut in half, and each portion is stimulated in the same way, each segment will generate the complete three dimensional image. The reason being that each point on the emulsion contains the total image of the object. However, the more each segment is reduced by half, the resolution of the object became less clear.

It is said: "One must polish the rust from the mirror of the heart to reveal the depth of the soul." To recognise ones' self in that mirror means to lose ones' self within the pattern, with the matrrix of our universe, and to "experience" All is One.

So to answer your question. How am I so sure that the soul is real? Over the span of my 64 years of existence, I have experienced facing that mirror many times. And with each incident I've learned more about myself and the universe around me. You may insist this is mere subjective speculation, but my mentors and I would seriously disagree with you.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Why do I think this? Without exception, every single christian I have ever had the misfortune to engage in religious conversation is quite happy to Lie For Jesus with a perfectly straight face.

Being christian seems to be equal to thinking lying is a good thing and to be worshipped.

The phrase "I'm a christian" immediately translates to "I'm a liar" and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit a fridge.

Nope.

Part of the motivation for me to follow the path I am on is to be more honest, both with myself and all whom I encounter, and my practice reinforces that, rather than degrades it.

DR

 

[Complexity]

You may insist this is mere subjective speculation, but my mentors and I would seriously disagree with you.

Well, my mentors and I would seriously disagree with you.

Your beliefs are foolish.

 

[SezMe]

Welcome to the forum, MHM.

Do you accept evolution as the correct history of life on Earth? If so, can you identify which creature was the first to have a soul? If not, what is your explanation for the history of life on Earth?

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

Well, my mentors and I would seriously disagree with you.

Your beliefs are foolish.

Just what do you and your mentors believe?

"I am an empiricist and as such I can demonstrate empirically the existence of a totality supraordinate to consciousness."

C.G. Jung, Collected Works, X, p.463

 

[JoeEllison]

Having done some faith-jumping in my youth and a friend finally settled on one, staying with a faith as you grow older seems to be subject to how you deal with liars.

When, as you mature, you decide that one particular set of lies is perfectly acceptable and tune your brain to hear or see nothing to contradict the lies (often helped by repeating the lies to others), you can then settle in that particular lying community.

The social and economic benefits of remaining with a particular group sharing and spreading the same lies (often called "My church") and also sharing common lies with other groups of liars, are too good to let go.

Once the culture and habit of accepting lies without question is fully entrenched in ones mind you are ready to give your time, money and effort to liars, which the chief liars are happy to take.

Those that don't accept the lies become atheist or, for those that think some lying is OK, agnostic.

Why do I think this? Without exception, every single christian I have ever had the misfortune to engage in religious conversation is quite happy to Lie For Jesus with a perfectly straight face.

Being christian seems to be equal to thinking lying is a good thing and to be worshipped.

The phrase "I'm a christian" immediately translates to "I'm a liar" and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit a fridge.

.

That's hardly fair. Most of them are either apologists for liars, or haven't given it much thought either way. Most of the out-and-out lying is done by the leaders. The followers repeat the lies, of course, but I don't think most of them realize that they've been duped.

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

Welcome to the forum, MHM.

Do you accept evolution as the correct history of life on Earth? If so, can you identify which creature was the first to have a soul? If not, what is your explanation for the history of life on Earth?

"Gottes Zeit ist der allebest Zeit"

The Quran was revealed in poetic verse to a people who were steeped in an Oral Culture. Poets of the day had the capacity to memorize volumes of verse. The early Companions of the Prophet Muhammad [Peace be upon him] committed the entire Quran to memory. The meter of the Arabic of the Quran is based on the number 19, a far more complex structurethan our English iambic pentameter. As in matters of translation of one language into another in straight prose, let alone a poem with its various subtelties, it is not so easy to render a one on one translation.

The accounting of the Creation Story, in Islam is a bit different than that recorded in Genisis.

Chapter 2: The Heifer (Al-Baqarah) translator - Pickthall
2:21 O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
2:22 Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
2:25 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.
2:26 Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;
2:27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.
2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.
2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
2:30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
2:31 And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
2:32 They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.
2:33 He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth ? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.
2:34 And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
2:35 And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.
2:36 But Satan [Iblis] caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.
2:37 Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
2:38 We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

There are many other bits of information in other Suras of the Quran, which I shall endeavor to capsulate in this brief post.

The first creatures created were tha Angels and the Jinn, as well as Adam and Eve. in the "state of felicity" . Then the physical universe and earth, and the "State of Felicity" is fashiond into the "seven heavens"... and Allah Knows Best.

There is no time line, and a day in the parlance of the Lord is measured in thousands of our years. Thus, it would be hard to rule out the evolutionary process which is evident in the world and the expanding universe.

I've brought down from my original respose on this thread to tie it in with my next to most recent post above.

The Creator is One. A Oneness which is Imortal with no begining nor end, and no shape nor form that can be imagined by the Mortal Mind.

The Universe by its intrinsic nature is a Relativistic Holistic Matrix on which time and space, energy and matter, are given structure and purpose.

The first premise above has been transmitted to Mankind by The Creator via his chosen Messengers, which have been elevated above others and who have been given knowledge of the seen and the unseen elements of the universe.

The second premise is rooted in the Objective and Subjective nature of Mankinds Psyche. The Continuum of Time and Space with infinite beginnings and endings of actions and reactions, have given Mankind more to measure and define than the human mind can concieve.

According to the first premise, amongst the vast realms of knowledge given to Mankind through the "Prophets" (messengers), is the dictum that we all are owners of a soul which exists in "The State of Felicity", which then becomes attached to the fetus in the womb, and which subsequently returns to "The State of Felicity" to await the reckoning of it's deeds and actions, which will finalise it's relative "state" in the hereafter.

I have exceded my time limit for this morning, I hope this may help answer your question somewhat.

 

[SezMe]

"Gottes Zeit ist der allebest Zeit"

"Sprechen das Deutsch mir - nicht"

See what one year of German taken late in the Holocene Age will get you.

More later.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Surely you mean "early" in the Holocene?
Ur-Deutsch, naturlich.

MHM Your post #61, while interesting, simplifies to the monosyllable "no" in answer to Arthwollipot's question.
You have no evidence for the existence of souls and would have been unlikely to imagine them had someone not given you the notion. (No more than any of us, I expect). Nor can you clarify why your belief is so firm.
No more can I prove souls are non existent. Or unicorns. But I keep failing to find them. I am not so old as you, but I have looked hard and found nothing to support souls, unicorns, Djinns or gods. The world seems to function very well without them. Hate, love, fear and jealously I have extensive evidence for, on the other hand.

"Mankind takes two positions on the matter of Law: That there is an Absolute Spiritual Reality, within and apart from the animal nature of our species which govern us; and those that deny that there is a higher reality. Mankind takes two positions on the matter of Law: That there is an Absolute Spiritual Reality, within and apart from the animal nature of our species which govern us; and those that deny that there is a higher reality. Rather, it is just the strength or our animal instinct and drive to survive, that governs us.
"

Now this is, assuredly, a brief paragraph within a complex comment, but it seems also to be a great oversimplification.
First, Law (capitalised or otherwise) has nothing to do with spirituality. The speed limit remains the speed limit whether the driver is Muslim, Christian or atheist. That, surely is the essence of the law? This applies to all law between humans. Between humans and gods there is (to my POV) no question of law, as if gods exist they hold all the cards and if they do not exist, then the concept is meaningless).

Second, as one of those who deny any "higher" reality, (or "lower"- to me there is only reality)- I would profoundly disagree with the following line:- (Rather, it is just the strength or our animal instinct and drive to survive, that governs us.)
No.The animal instinct and strength is precisely what law is supposed to control and restrain. Natural selection is an observation about how the world is- not how human behaviour ought to be.

ETA- Apologies if I am getting off the thread topic here, but I feel this latter conflation of what is with what should be is a source of confusion between the religious and the scientific POV. Happy to take it to another thread if needs be.

 

[Civilized Worm]

Perhapse not. However, your avatar reveals an inner hostility, wouldn't you think? Or is that just a Scottish thing?

No my avatar reveals the outer hostility of Buzz Aldrin. Besides, I'm not damning anyone to eternal hellfire.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Aye,but yer fae Glesca pal. (but)*
If that disnae imply aggression, whit the fog dis it imply, eh?


* note to foreigners. The use of the conjunction "but" at the end of a sentence , is practically mandatory in parts of Glasgow.
Likewise, commencing a sentence with the words "See you?"

ETA- Or the extreme version, "See you, pal?", which is basically a declaration of war.

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

Surely you mean "early" in the Holocene?
Ur-Deutsch, naturlich.
MHM Your post #61, while interesting, simplifies to the monosyllable "no" in answer to Arthwollipot's question.
You have no evidence for the existence of souls and would have been unlikely to imagine them had someone not given you the notion. (No more than any of us, I expect). Nor can you clarify why your belief is so firm.
No more can I prove souls are non existent. Or unicorns. But I keep failing to find them. I am not so old as you, but I have looked hard and found nothing to support souls, unicorns, Djinns or gods. The world seems to function very well without them. Hate, love, fear and jealously I have extensive evidence for, on the other hand.
Now this is, assuredly, a brief paragraph within a complex comment, but it seems also to be a great oversimplification.
First, Law (capitalised or otherwise) has nothing to do with spirituality. The speed limit remains the speed limit whether the driver is Muslim, Christian or atheist. That, surely is the essence of the law? This applies to all law between humans. Between humans and gods there is (to my POV) no question of law, as if gods exist they hold all the cards and if they do not exist, then the concept is meaningless).
Second, as one of those who deny any "higher" reality, (or "lower"- to me there is only reality)- I would profoundly disagree with the following line:- (Rather, it is just the strength or our animal instinct and drive to survive, that governs us.)
No.The animal instinct and strength is precisely what law is supposed to control and restrain. Natural selection is an observation about how the world is- not how human behaviour ought to be.
ETA- Apologies if I am getting off the thread topic here, but I feel this latter conflation of what is with what should be is a source of confusion between the religious and the scientific POV. Happy to take it to another thread if needs be.

Why, don't you know that as a theist, I believe that God informed Mankind that he had a soul through the Prophets?
For me, old fool that I am, I will take that conviction to the grave with me.

As for my statement which you quote above, "governs" is perhaps not the best operative word. "Drives" would be more accurate.

You do not think that there are laws which apply to spirituality? The entire universe is governed by the laws of the Creator, whom you deny exists. Thus, there are only man made laws then? There are the laws of your god "Nature" that the scientific POV has proven by experimentation.

the point I am trying to make is that the laws governing the universe are the same for the theist POV and the scientific POV, and I use the similitude of a "holographic universe" to support my argument.

Obviously, you have never been touched by a true spiritual experience in your lifetime.

 

[arthwollipot]

How am I so sure that the soul is real? In essence, you are asking me for empiricale evidence that the soul exists as a "real object" in our universe, as opposed to being a fabrication of human conception. A fairy tale, as some posters here would wish to call it. Nespa?

No. I wasn't asking for anything of the kind. I was asking for what it was that convinced you that a soul exists. If you were convinced by experiment or observation, then fine, but I would consider that to be highly unusual.

Currently, we are able to measure [or at least estimate] the existence and size of cosmic rays, which leave only a visibe track in a chamber of a specialized medium. Perhaps, nano-technology will advance to the sub atomic level, and discover a sub-sub atomic stage where we will be able to detect and entire realm of waves or particles that are the warp and woof of the fabric of the soul, and the etherial worlds of the "unseen". We are trapped by our own limitations.

You're saying here that the "soul" exists on a material substrate. How does that differ from materialistic conceptions of the "mind"?

Every human being possess intelligenge and language skills, as do many other species, with the abilitiy to communicate amongst one another. What distinguishes Mankind from other species is the ability to perceive a thing, give it a name, measure it, and to record and categorise it.

How do you know that dolphins can't do that? What about dogs? What about Alex, the African grey parrot (now deceased), who had a vocabulary of several hundred words and understood abstracts (for example, when shown a blue key and a green key and asked "what's different", Alex responded "colour". When shown a blue key and a blue ball, he responded "shape".)

We also possess immeausrable qualities, which are also found in other species, such as love, hate, fear, jealousy, and pride. On a higher level we have compassion, mercy, and forgiveness. We have developed tests to measure intelligence as well as the general and specific realms of knowledge of our species.

And what is it that distinguishes the love, hate, fear, jealousy and pride that humans feel from the love, hate, fear, jealousy and pride that animals feel?

To the latter grouping, there is no empiricle way to prove the existance of the Spirit.

Woah, hang on. Are we talking about the soul or the spirit? They are separate things, according to some.

This type of event began to happen more and more, on a frequent basis, so my wife went to the Library to research this type of event, to come to the understanding that she was experiencing remote vewing, and "Reading" people.

So do you believe that your wife is psychic?

It is said: "One must polish the rust from the mirror of the heart to reveal the depth of the soul." To recognise ones' self in that mirror means to lose ones' self within the pattern, with the matrrix of our universe, and to "experience" All is One.

So to answer your question. How am I so sure that the soul is real? Over the span of my 64 years of existence, I have experienced facing that mirror many times. And with each incident I've learned more about myself and the universe around me. You may insist this is mere subjective speculation, but my mentors and I would seriously disagree with you.

And I thank you for making an honest and sincere attempt to answer my question.

My next question is - have those like me who deny the existence of the soul just not spent enough time in front of the mirror?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Why, don't you know that as a theist, I believe that God informed Mankind that he had a soul through the Prophets?
For me, old fool that I am, I will take that conviction to the grave with me.

So, your belief in this preceded the spiritual experience that led to you embracing Islam?

You do not think that there are laws which apply to spirituality? The entire universe is governed by the laws of the Creator, whom you deny exists. Thus, there are only man made laws then? There are the laws of your god "Nature" that the scientific POV has proven by experimentation.

Nature is no god of mine. Reality exists however. I try to remember that and observe it as I can. "Law" has two meanings, which are quite different. There are the laws of physics, which are simply observations about what happens and the way it happens. That is not what I mean by "law" here.
I mean rules for human behaviour. These are derived from human needs and wants and tend to be remarkably similar across most cultures. The biblical commandments and Koranic equivalents are pretty much found in non JCM cultures too. (People not "of the book").

the point I am trying to make is that the laws governing the universe are the same for the theist POV and the scientific POV, and I use the similitude of a "holographic universe" to support my argument.

Right- there you mean physical law, which we agree is religion independent.

Obviously, you have never been touched by a true spiritual experience in your lifetime.

No, I have not, so far as I know. Nor would I know how to recognise such, or how to distinguish it from any other mental event. The question of interest to me is how one objectively tests any conclusion arising from such an event to see if the conclusion is worth supporting.
Many people claim spiritual experiences, the conclusions of which flatly contradict your own. The point of the thread is to know how the theist decides whether his experience has validity in terms of the conclusions arising from it, or whether the "spiritual experience" has no more relevance to the way the world actually is, than any other experience- for example winning the lottery, which is a real event, with measurable consequences for the winner, his friends and family, but is rarely interpreted in any spiritual way.

If I did have a "spiritual experience" I would (I hope) examine it in the light of what I know about me, life and the brain. I would be very unlikely to conclude it was a profound insight received from some hypothetical external source, unless it actually answered questions unanswerable in any other way- and the answers could be checked.
It's noticeable, for instance, that such spiritual experience never gives anyone the answer to questions which can actually be checked. This leads me to suspect the experience is purely internal and cannot, rationally be used to justify external conclusions.

A related experience might be the sort of Eureka moment in which a researcher , who has been thinking constantly about some topic, suddenly "sees the light" and understands the answer to a problem. The researcher tends to interpret this as a consequence of his subconscious working constantly on the problem, rather than as an external revelation.
I wonder why the spiritual experience is interpreted so differently.
For example- while you switched religions, you nonetheless interpreted your spiritual experience in religious terms.
Did it ever occur to you that it might be interpretable in any other way?

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

No. I wasn't asking for anything of the kind. I was asking for what it was that convinced you that a soul exists. If you were convinced by experiment or observation, then fine, but I would consider that to be highly unusual.

Sorry I haven't had the time to repond to your post, but I have spells where I can't get to the computer any lenghth of time.

If your normal life experience is interrupted with a series Auras leading to petit mal siezures, perhapse eventally evoling into grand mal siezures, that one suffers from epilepsy. "Spiritual experiences" disrupt your normal life style also, but rather than being a pathological nervous disorder, they are like "mind expansion" experiences (not drug induced, either).

You're saying here that the "soul" exists on a material substrate. How does that differ from materialistic conceptions of the "mind"?

What I am saying is that all things "seen" and "unseen" are created substance. And thus, have their existance in a "unified field". That we haven't the means to measure that substrata does not mean that it does not exist as such.

The human mind is quite facinating. Grey matter infused with electrochemical impulses via a complex nerve system; and the manufacture of the essential harmones which govern the growth and health of the body; functions of memory an language; and much more. If we imagine the mind possessing a "unified field" there is a continuum from it's smallest aspect to it's gratest aspects.

How do you know that dolphins can't do that? What about dogs? What about Alex, the African grey parrot (now deceased), who had a vocabulary of several hundred words and understood abstracts (for example, when shown a blue key and a green key and asked "what's different", Alex responded "colour". When shown a blue key and a blue ball, he responded "shape".)

Only mankind has "defined, recorded, and filed and indexed" his environment according to his knowledge. (unless dolphins have an underwater kingdom filled with universities and libraries).

And what is it that distinguishes the love, hate, fear, jealousy and pride that humans feel from the love, hate, fear, jealousy and pride that animals feel?

They are pretty much the same. AS I said in my post, there are many things which we share along with other species.

Woah, hang on. Are we talking about the soul or the spirit? They are separate things, according to some.

According to Websters Dictionary, "soul" has 9 entries and "spirit" has 15 entries. The first two entries are very similar for each.

So do you believe that your wife is psychic?

I believe as my wife believes: that every human being has the same potentialities. The talent for tapping those potentialities is something individual. A CEO of a company reaches the top of his or her career by being able to "read other people" and project potential courses of action. It is a talent.

And I thank you for making an honest and sincere attempt to answer my question.

My next question is - have those like me who deny the existence of the soul just not spent enough time in front of the mirror?

You're welcome.

The mirror is your spiritual heart. If a mirror is encrusted with rust, There are some rust removers on the market. Not all of them are effective in removing hard encusted rust. Sometimes it takes a rubber mallet and chisel to chip away at it's various levels. Denying that the rust is not there, that the spiritual heart is not there, does not make it's reality any less important to you. You can manage to navigate your course through life. It depends on your own personal value system. This reminds me of the Japanese producer Kurosawa and his film entitled: "The Lower Depths".

Pardon me I digress.

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

So, your belief in this preceded the spiritual experience that led to you embracing Islam?


Nature is no god of mine. Reality exists however. I try to remember that and observe it as I can. "Law" has two meanings, which are quite different. There are the laws of physics, which are simply observations about what happens and the way it happens. That is not what I mean by "law" here.
I mean rules for human behaviour. These are derived from human needs and wants and tend to be remarkably similar across most cultures. The biblical commandments and Koranic equivalents are pretty much found in non JCM cultures too. (People not "of the book").

As I said earlier: "We also possess immeausrable qualities, which are also found in other species, such as love, hate, fear, jealousy, and pride. On a higher level we have compassion, mercy, and forgiveness. We have developed tests to measure intelligence as well as the general and specific realms of knowledge of our species. But, how do we measure love, hate, compassion, fear, jealousy,and pride? How do we measure compassion, mercy, and forgiveness? We measure them against the amount of good or harm that is effected on us. To this extent we have ascribed laws to benefit and protect our society. "

In response to my query as to whether you have ever had a real "spiritual experience, you replied:

No, I have not, so far as I know. Nor would I know how to recognise such, or how to distinguish it from any other mental event. The question of interest to me is how one objectively tests any conclusion arising from such an event to see if the conclusion is worth supporting.
Many people claim spiritual experiences, the conclusions of which flatly contradict your own. The point of the thread is to know how the theist decides whether his experience has validity in terms of the conclusions arising from it, or whether the "spiritual experience" has no more relevance to the way the world actually is, than any other experience- for example winning the lottery, which is a real event, with measurable consequences for the winner, his friends and family, but is rarely interpreted in any spiritual way.

If I did have a "spiritual experience" I would (I hope) examine it in the light of what I know about me, life and the brain. I would be very unlikely to conclude it was a profound insight received from some hypothetical external source, unless it actually answered questions unanswerable in any other way- and the answers could be checked.
It's noticeable, for instance, that such spiritual experience never gives anyone the answer to questions which can actually be checked. This leads me to suspect the experience is purely internal and cannot, rationally be used to justify external conclusions.

A related experience might be the sort of Eureka moment in which a researcher , who has been thinking constantly about some topic, suddenly "sees the light" and understands the answer to a problem. The researcher tends to interpret this as a consequence of his subconscious working constantly on the problem, rather than as an external revelation.
I wonder why the spiritual experience is interpreted so differently.
For example- while you switched religions, you nonetheless interpreted your spiritual experience in religious terms.
Did it ever occur to you that it might be interpretable in any other way?

A real "spiritual experience" has many levels of magnitude. Sometimes you may shrug them off , ignoring their effect on your being. Sometimes an individual will delibrately ignore the "signs" of these events. Some have buried them deep within the psyche, untill he or she reaches a point referred to as "The dark night of the soul" where everything you are is shattered into a million pieces, and you are left standing naked and alone... a hollow shell.
Standing in this void, more often than not, you will find the answers to the questions which you harbor within yourself. It is just as real as winning a lottery. However, the species is not greenbacks or precious metal.

 

[SezMe]

The Quran was revealed in poetic verse to a people who were steeped in an Oral Culture. Poets of the day had the capacity to memorize volumes of verse. The early Companions of the Prophet Muhammad [Peace be upon him] committed the entire Quran to memory. The meter of the Arabic of the Quran is based on the number 19, a far more complex structurethan our English iambic pentameter. As in matters of translation of one language into another in straight prose, let alone a poem with its various subtelties, it is not so easy to render a one on one translation.

I feared you had abandoned this thread so, since my fears were unfounded, I'd like to go back to this post. Your first paragraph above prompts several comments.

First and foremost, your statement that Muhammad's contemporaneous companions memorized the Quran is absolutely astonishing. How can this be in light of the fact that the Quran was not written in its entirety for about 100 years after Muhammad's death! Now, they may have memorized portions that later became parts of the Quran but that hardly qualifies as memorizing the whole thing.

English iambic pentameter is only one of numerous rythmic schemes available in that language. Comparing the meter of the Quran to this one scheme, then, does not seem to add any insight.

I could not agree more that language translation of poetry from one language to another is fraught with hazard. I suspect that some cultural concepts simply cannot survive the process.

You then responded to my query about evolution but in a way that leaves me unenlightened. First you say that some entities, including Adam and Eve were created. But later you say that evolution cannot be ruled out. These two positions cannot be reconciled. Either Adam and Eve were created as the first humans with, presumably, souls or humans arose out the evolutionary process. In the latter case, I can only go back to original question: what creature had the first soul?

Finally, I would prefer that you not quote big chunks of the Quran in response to questions. I do not give that book any special credence so citing it cannot respond to my queries. I'd prefer to hear your own personal thoughts.

That said, I understand that you left Christianity for Islam based on a search of various religions. Note these two selections that you posted:

2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

So Islam, the religion of peace, condemns non-believers to eternal torture in hell. Nice. How in the world could you pick such a religion to follow since there are so many others that do not contain such a horrific concept. To say nothing of choosing, for example, Humanism, which excludes the whole notion of hell, retribution, judgement, etc. Why Islam?

 

[M.H.Mubarak]

I feared you had abandoned this thread so, since my fears were unfounded, I'd like to go back to this post. Your first paragraph above prompts several comments.

First and foremost, your statement that Muhammad's contemporaneous companions memorized the Quran is absolutely astonishing. How can this be in light of the fact that the Quran was not written in its entirety for about 100 years after Muhammad's death! Now, they may have memorized portions that later became parts of the Quran but that hardly qualifies as memorizing the whole thing.

In the Oral Society that thrived at the time of Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be upon him) the memorization of volumes of poetic verse was common place. To this day there are reciters of the Quran in it's entirity.
The Sunnah [Hadith] of the Prophet (pbuh) were also committed to memory, including the lines of transmission (That is, who narrated it, and how many others also reported the same Hadith) by Savant Scholars of that time. They could memorize thousands of Hadith.

You and I are products of a society that has become dependant upon the written word. Ever since Gutenburg initiated the mass production of the printed word, the oral traditions began to wane. In Islam, however, there are some who still safeguard the oral traditions passed down through the centuries.

English iambic pentameter is only one of numerous rythmic schemes available in that language. Comparing the meter of the Quran to this one scheme, then, does not seem to add any insight.

The only insight it offers is that Muhammad (pbuh) would have had to have been more than a genius to have composed the Quran with such a rythmic meter. He would have had to carry around in his head the whole "oral format" of the Quran, from beginning to end for the 23 years of his prophethood. However, we Muslims know that the Quran was revealed to him in bits and parts over that period of twenty three years, via the arch angel Gabriel. [Which is why the Quran is a Divine Revelation].

Thus, I've now reached the point where I must touch upon the Articles of Faith of all Muskims, which are six in number to Believe: 1) That God is One. 2) All the Angels 3) All the Books given to the prophets 4) All the Prophets, from Adam to Muhammad 5) Life after death and The Day of Judgement, and 6) Qader and Qadem [which is something akin to predestination, but not quite that).

Even though you are not Muslim and do not believe any of this, it will help you to to perceive the underlying factors of my Faith, and the subsequent belief that these are factual elements in the Muslim perception of the universe in which we both find ourselves.

I could not agree more that language translation of poetry from one language to another is fraught with hazard. I suspect that some cultural concepts simply cannot survive the process.

Hazard is the best choice of words here. Poetic imagery and similitudes are often twisted into pretzels.

You then responded to my query about evolution but in a way that leaves me unenlightened. First you say that some entities, including Adam and Eve were created. But later you say that evolution cannot be ruled out. These two positions cannot be reconciled. Either Adam and Eve were created as the first humans with, presumably, souls or humans arose out the evolutionary process. In the latter case, I can only go back to original question: what creature had the first soul?

"Gottes Zeit ist der allebest Zeit" [Gods' Time is the all best time].
This is not tme based on our solar years. A day could represent eons.

As I stated in my previous post, but with a slightly different angle: The first "realm" of creation is the "State of Felicity". This is the initial realm of the unseen; of the angels, which according to the Quran were created out of smokless flame; the jinn which were created from the lower flame; and Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve, who were fashioned out of five types of "clay". The physical universe and the "State of Felicity" is fashioned of "seven heavens" and our frirmament... and Allah Knows Best.

I shall not endeavor to bore you with the entire creation story here, since you are adverse to lengthy quotes from a book which you find to be foolish.
Have you ever comptemplated reading the entire Quran, even though you believe it to be a fairy tale? It would be a bit different from "Gullivers Travels," but you would get a better "Gestalt" of the Muslim text.

Change and Evolution happens to the earth and it's creatures. Why the Creator chose this corner of the universe to posit The tribe of Adam and Eve is anyones guess, but they did not come from monkies or apes

That said, I understand that you left Christianity for Islam based on a search of various religions. Note these two selections that you posted:

2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

So Islam, the religion of peace, condemns non-believers to eternal torture in hell. Nice. How in the world could you pick such a religion to follow since there are so many others that do not contain such a horrific concept. To say nothing of choosing, for example, Humanism, which excludes the whole notion of hell, retribution, judgement, etc. Why Islam?

Islam does not condemn the non-believers, but rather the non-belivers who condemn themselves. The Creator wishes mankind (us) to recognise Him out of his (our) own free will, and for us to give thanks and respect for that which he has placed before us. If we don't need "Him", then "He" doesn't necessarily need us. The master gardener mows the grass, trims the hedges, and removes the weeds from the flower beds.

 

[tsig]

In the Oral Society that thrived at the time of Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be upon him) the memorization of volumes of poetic verse was common place. To this day there are reciters of the Quran in it's entirity.
The Sunnah [Hadith] of the Prophet (pbuh) were also committed to memory, including the lines of transmission (That is, who narrated it, and how many others also reported the same Hadith) by Savant Scholars of that time. They could memorize thousands of Hadith.

You and I are products of a society that has become dependant upon the written word. Ever since Gutenburg initiated the mass production of the printed word, the oral traditions began to wane. In Islam, however, there are some who still safeguard the oral traditions passed down through the centuries.




The only insight it offers is that Muhammad (pbuh) would have had to have been more than a genius to have composed the Quran with such a rythmic meter. He would have had to carry around in his head the whole "oral format" of the Quran, from beginning to end for the 23 years of his prophethood. However, we Muslims know that the Quran was revealed to him in bits and parts over that period of twenty three years, via the arch angel Gabriel. [Which is why the Quran is a Divine Revelation].

Thus, I've now reached the point where I must touch upon the Articles of Faith of all Muskims, which are six in number to Believe: 1) That God is One. 2) All the Angels 3) All the Books given to the prophets 4) All the Prophets, from Adam to Muhammad 5) Life after death and The Day of Judgement, and 6) Qader and Qadem [which is something akin to predestination, but not quite that).

Even though you are not Muslim and do not believe any of this, it will help you to to perceive the underlying factors of my Faith, and the subsequent belief that these are factual elements in the Muslim perception of the universe in which we both find ourselves.



Hazard is the best choice of words here. Poetic imagery and similitudes are often twisted into pretzels.



"Gottes Zeit ist der allebest Zeit" [Gods' Time is the all best time].
This is not tme based on our solar years. A day could represent eons.

As I stated in my previous post, but with a slightly different angle: The first "realm" of creation is the "State of Felicity". This is the initial realm of the unseen; of the angels, which according to the Quran were created out of smokless flame; the jinn which were created from the lower flame; and Mankind in the form of Adam and Eve, who were fashioned out of five types of "clay". The physical universe and the "State of Felicity" is fashioned of "seven heavens" and our frirmament... and Allah Knows Best.

I shall not endeavor to bore you with the entire creation story here, since you are adverse to lengthy quotes from a book which you find to be foolish.
Have you ever comptemplated reading the entire Quran, even though you believe it to be a fairy tale? It would be a bit different from "Gullivers Travels," but you would get a better "Gestalt" of the Muslim text.

Change and Evolution happens to the earth and it's creatures. Why the Creator chose this corner of the universe to posit The tribe of Adam and Eve is anyones guess, but they did not come from monkies or apes






Islam does not condemn the non-believers, but rather the non-belivers who condemn themselves. The Creator wishes mankind (us) to recognise Him out of his (our) own free will, and for us to give thanks and respect for that which he has placed before us. If we don't need "Him", then "He" doesn't necessarily need us. The master gardener mows the grass, trims the hedges, and removes the weeds from the flower beds.

Muhammed got it all wrong Gabe was having him on. I know because I talk directly to god and he told me he had to have a long talk with Gabe but he couldn't change anything because of free will and all.

Now since your god-talk comes from Gabe to Mo to Companions to who knows to you and mine comes directly from the source I got the trumps.

Further revelations will be available on youtube. Please click on Paypal and buy my book. It's the last one you will ever need.

Your name will be added to the list to receive notice of new editions

 

[SezMe]

I shall not endeavor to bore you with the entire creation story here, since you are adverse to lengthy quotes from a book which you find to be foolish.

Nowhere have I stated that the Quran is "foolish". Do not put words in my mouth.

Have you ever comptemplated reading the entire Quran, even though you believe it to be a fairy tale?

Nowhere have I stated that the Quran is "a fairy tale". Do not put words in my mouth.

Islam does not condemn the non-believers, but rather the non-belivers who condemn themselves.

C'mon, MHM, don't play word games. My disbelief in Allah is just that and nothing more. It is Islam and Christianity that pile on the consequence of everlasting hell. If you're going to be a Muslim, then stand up for your beliefs rather than trying to muck around with words to deny what your faith clearly states in its holy book.