Ed How do you Feel about this?

[Lucian]

It's an American-born word, directly meant to be derogatory. What's the point that it's less derogatory there? Less derogatory is still derogatory, and it's not the same as the root word it comes from.

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You're conflating the word 'negro' with the epithet. It came about in the 18th century to refer to a slave, so the only sense it was 'neutral' was that the slaves weren't considered equal.

I'm really not because, first of all, I'm not the OED, I'm just quoting it. Secondly, the OED is extremely detailed in its etymology and its quotations; it is clearly NOT conflating the "n-word" with "negro." The quotations show that the word was NOT originally used for slaves exclusively, nor were the earliest uses American. The earliest quotations come from the late 16th century. Granted, the word was then spelled with one "g." The OED also explains g/gg in some detail.

 

[truethat]

Dragging it out is stupid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it might be offensive. Just change it already.

 

[empeake]

African --> colored --> negro --> black --> African-American --> ?

From Wikipedia:

1835 black leaders called upon black Americans to remove the title of "African" from their institutions and replace it with "Negro" or "Colored American".

With the successes of the civil rights movement a new term was needed to break from the past and help shed the reminders of legalized discrimination. In place of Negro, black was promoted as standing for racial pride, militancy and power.

In 1988 Jesse Jackson urged Americans to use the term African American because the term has a historical cultural base.

After all these years, back to the beginning.

 

[empeake]

It's an American-born word, directly meant to be derogatory.

In the United States, certainly. In Australia, it seems not, judging from the posts.

One thing that strikes me as odd is this: If the term is so offensive, why did it take 10 years for the issue to be solved? Wouldn't an outburst of aboriginal rejection have pressured the authorities or owners (or whoever is responsible) to make the name change many years ago?

Methinks Stephen Hagan is in this for his 15 minutes of fame (and the money that comes along).

By the way, yankee is a derogatory word. Should we rename the new "Y****e Stadium" "Evil Empire Stadium"?

 

[lionking]

Dragging it out is stupid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it might be offensive. Just change it already.

What, to make some Americans and a handful of aboriginal activists happy?

"Coon" cheese was named after a man. The name is well known and accepted and shouldn't change.

The "N" word can be offensive in context, as can the word "bastard", but it is not always offensive here. My son has a highly tanned, non-indigenous friend nicknamed "N*****"; the indigenous boxer Anthony Mundine's nickname is "Choc", and he is referred to as such in interviews; as I said, black dogs are sometimes called "n*****". And the name on the stand commemorates someone who was happy to be known as "N*****".

An absolute storm in a teacup. If the government forces a name change, I will be calling for dozens of name changes of places which could potentially cause offence.

 

[dingogirl]

One thing that strikes me as odd is this: If the term is so offensive, why did it take 10 years for the issue to be solved? Wouldn't an outburst of aboriginal rejection have pressured the authorities or owners (or whoever is responsible) to make the name change many years ago?

Methinks Stephen Hagan is in this for his 15 minutes of fame (and the money that comes along).

These may help explain:

google "Letter to Editor 26 Sept 08-Queensland Greens"

Google "The N word Interview by Rob O'Brien"

 

[dingogirl]

Hagan emailed me and said "my campaign would not have been a success if it was not for the support of many non-Indigenous people."

 

[linusrichard]

If Coon Cheese was indeed named after someone named Coon, then there should be no need to change it. I have no problem with PC (and I'm not afraid to admit it, which I think makes me very un-PC!), but the stupidest examples of PC (like the "niggardly" incident) are, I think, not PC at all, but sort of a PC-inspired mindset taken to the extreme.

As far as the other one, the one conclusion I've come to after reading through this thread is that non-Australians, and particularly Americans, should probably recuse ourselves from the discussion, since it's impossible for us to know exactly the role the n-word plays in Australian culture, which I think is essential knowledge in order to express an opinion on it. I will say that if "N*****" had been his surname, rather than his nickname, I would have no problem at all with their retaining the name. As things are, I don't know - like I say, it's not something Americans should feel qualified to talk too much about.

Of course, we Americans are way too sensitive and PC, which is why you'll never find racial slurs mixed in with our sports (unless you count our capital's NFL franchise, of course).

 

[empeake]

These may help explain:

google "Letter to Editor 26 Sept 08-Queensland Greens"

Google "The N word Interview by Rob O'Brien"

From the second source:

...Hagan’s case failed to move Australia’s domestic judiciaries including the Supreme Court...

From the same source:

(Interviewer) But Aboriginals in Toowoomba have supported the sign?
(Stephen Hagan) That was a convenient excuse that the first judge used against me, there are a number of contradictions there. Those Aboriginals had issues with me personally, they were offended by the word ‘◊◊◊◊◊◊’, but because I was calling for accountability and transparency in the Aboriginal organisations they worked in, and they didn’t want me questioning how they handled taxpayer’s money - with investigations they would have all been closed down anyway. They sold their soul, but it was convenient for the judge to say ‘there are Aboriginal people who weren’t offended by the sign so it can’t be offensive’.

Now I understand: it is a conspiracy!

 

[truethat]

What, to make some Americans and a handful of aboriginal activists happy?

"Coon" cheese was named after a man. The name is well known and accepted and shouldn't change.

The "N" word can be offensive in context, as can the word "bastard", but it is not always offensive here. My son has a highly tanned, non-indigenous friend nicknamed "N*****"; the indigenous boxer Anthony Mundine's nickname is "Choc", and he is referred to as such in interviews; as I said, black dogs are sometimes called "n*****". And the name on the stand commemorates someone who was happy to be known as "N*****".

An absolute storm in a teacup. If the government forces a name change, I will be calling for dozens of name changes of places which could potentially cause offence.

The storm is made by the fighting it. And the "calling for dozens of name changes is" a tempest in a tea cup is it not. Over here in America we call it being a drama queen

So drama queen much?

Seems to be your standard MO

 

[lionking]

It would be nice if further posters addressed the issue and not descend into ad homs.

 

[Doberman_Pip]

Incidentally, the name of Guy Gibson's (of "Dambusters" fame) dog was "******", and was to Gibson, a significant part of his life.

Should we re-write history on that one as well?

Too late! Here's the URL (my blood is too young for a live link) of a report in the British "Daily Telegraph" about the censorship of that very dog's name by ITV (a Brit TV company) when reshowing the film "The Dam Busters".

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1308760/Dam-Busters-offensive-dog-cut-by-censor.html

ITV was criticised by anti-censorship campaigners yesterday after it expunged the name of ******, the famous black labrador owned by the Dam Busters leader Guy Gibson, from the film version of the bombing raid.

 

[rjh01]

Too late! Here's the URL (my blood is too young for a live link) of a report in the British "Daily Telegraph" about the censorship of that very dog's name by ITV (a Brit TV company) when reshowing the film "The Dam Busters".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1308760/Dam-Busters-offensive-dog-cut-by-censor.html

Fixed your link for you.

 

[lionking]

Too late! Here's the URL (my blood is too young for a live link) of a report in the British "Daily Telegraph" about the censorship of that very dog's name by ITV (a Brit TV company) when reshowing the film "The Dam Busters".

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1308760/Dam-Busters-offensive-dog-cut-by-censor.html

More re-writing of history lunacy.

 

[BTMO]

Too late! Here's the URL (my blood is too young for a live link) of a report in the British "Daily Telegraph" about the censorship of that very dog's name by ITV (a Brit TV company) when reshowing the film "The Dam Busters".

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1308760/Dam-Busters-offensive-dog-cut-by-censor.html

And in more recent news...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/2387071/Offensive-name-dogs-Dambusters

If they are whining over a dogs name, why on earth are they making a movie about a war, in which people actually died - innocent, civilian children, whose only crime was to be downstream of the dam?

This is what annoys me about the whole PC thing - people will work themselves into a froth over a word, and when confronted with real tragedies, simply ignore them.

 

[El_Spectre]

It's an American-born word, directly meant to be derogatory. What's the point that it's less derogatory there? Less derogatory is still derogatory, and it's not the same as the root word it comes from.

Language evolves, and is regional. It is entirely possible that a term, no matter how distasteful it might be *HERE* isn't a big deal *OVER THERE*.

Or, to (badly) quote Carlin: "They're just words. It's the racist ******** who use them to harm people we should be afraid of."

If a large portion of society decides to make a change, that's fair enough. Offended individuals have no right to have their way, just because they claim offense.

 

[Doberman_Pip]

Offended individuals have no right to have their way, just because they claim offense.

I agree. And I think it also applies particularly to religious belief. (I realise it's not an original thought of mine - see e.g. Sam Harris "The End of Belief".)

"We should respect other people's beliefs." Why? Particularly if they're absurd. To claim that you're offended by something says nothing about the alleged offending item, but a lot about the person making the statement.

I think it's particularly odd when people claim that something is offensive to other people. Here in the UK there have been occasions when certain things have been... censored would be my word... to "avoid offending Muslims". (e.g. downplaying Christmas, because it's a Christian festival.) It often turns out that Muslims are not at all offended.

 

[El_Spectre]

I agree. And I think it also applies particularly to religious belief. (I realise it's not an original thought of mine - see e.g. Sam Harris "The End of Belief".)

"We should respect other people's beliefs." Why? Particularly if they're absurd. To claim that you're offended by something says nothing about the alleged offending item, but a lot about the person making the statement.

Yup. I recall a memorable after-Thanksgiving discussion with a family member who said "but... it seems like you don't respect my beliefs"

"It's more than that, I think your belief is ridiculous. I DON'T respect it. But I respect your right to express it. Incidently, I notice you don't seem to respect my right to do the same about lack of belief"

Yeah, I'm fun at family get togethers

 

[Doberman_Pip]

Yup. I recall a memorable after-Thanksgiving discussion with a family member who said "but... it seems like you don't respect my beliefs"

Such comments often go along with:

"But I'm entitled to my belief..."

Yep, never said you weren't. And I'm entitled to my belief that you're an idiot. And that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.

"It's more than that, I think your belief is ridiculous. I DON'T respect it."

Nor do I respect the Nazi beliefs about the Jews etc.

I used to teach religious education in British secondary schools (N.B. this was "education about various religions", NOT "bible class".) I remember being particularly annoyed that the headteacher said that we should "respect all beliefs."

Many "believers" seem to think that all beliefs are equally valid ("why don't you respect MY beliefs") AND that some beliefs are MORE valid than others ("you're going to hell if you don't believe that Jesus...")

Yeah, I'm fun at family get togethers

I'll bet!