How do we know that places like Narnia do not exist?

We're not talking about talking Lions. We're talking about whether physical laws as currently known can be violated. We can only assert they can't be by supposing that these current physical laws are a 100% accurate description of reality.
Why don't you give us an example of a physical law that is different in Narnia than in this universe? I can think of several, but since you don't seem to accept some of them, lets stick to the one that you agree are different.
 
Yet another example of skeptics trying to divert attention from the issue at stake.


The issue at stake being your own misrepresentation of Dawkins' views?

Excuse me? I have not misrepresented his views. If the guy from that website has misrepresented his views then have a go at him. But don't accuse me of anything.

Let's keep this simple and concentrate on one of these things that Dawkin's[sic] apparently knows (italics in original -- drk) doesn't exist; namely Narnia. What arguments does Dawkin's [sic]come out with that another world like Narnia, only accessible through magic, doesn't exist? Does he actually come out with any arguments for this assertion?



Dawkins never made the assertion you claim he did.

Another lying bastard. I made no such claim. I said he apparently knows. That is to say that from the extract I quoted it appears to be the case that he is saying he knows that no Narnia type worlds exist.

By your own admission, no one on this thread has made the assertion you claim.

Yes of course no one has made the assertion that Narnia type worlds are friggin impossible!!

So why the bloody hell does it keep coming up all the time when no damn person -- least of all myself -- has ever remotely suggested that anyone has said this??

Get it through that concrete block you call your skull.

I have never said that anyone --least of all Dawkins -- has said a Narnia world is impossible!

How many times must I repeat myself?


As it happens, I have very good reason for rejecting the claim that Narnia exists. It's fictitious. It's imaginary.

Oh for crying out loud!!

Read the thread!


Since a primary defining property of Narnia is that it is fictitious, any "Narnia-like" world is also, by definition, fictitious and equally does not exist.

Any novel portrays a fictitious world. But to suggest that there cannot be a world like the fictitious world is flat out wrong since most novels are based upon this world we're existing in right now.

Absolutely incredible how stupid everyone is. Is stupidity the defining characteristic of a skeptic? Certainly seems to be.

PS Does anyone actually understand the distinction between saying X is impossible and saying they know it doesn't exist. Because it doesn't appear that people do!
 
So if I'm reading this thread correctly, people are accusing other people of misrepresenting something that deserves more nuance than some people assumed other people think?
 
Is there some kind of study guide or summary available for this thread? I got lost a while back and some kind of position statement for the two sides beliefs would be good.

I only started reading this because I'd just finished The Lion the witch and the wardrobe. Turkish delight anyone?
 
We're not talking about talking Lions. We're talking about whether physical laws as currently known can be violated. We can only assert they can't be by supposing that these current physical laws are a 100% accurate description of reality.

Your predisposition to fantasy has lead you to once again create your opponent out of thin air.

a) So far, nobody has observed these laws being violated. If they did, we would immediately begin experimenting to understand what caused this violation. You are free to alert us to these violations, should you find them. Being that you've spent the better part of 7 pages trying to convince me that Narnia is real, forgive me if I'm reluctant to believe you.

b) We don't assume the laws of physics are a 100% accurate description of reality. They are the most accurate description we've managed to build so far as a species. As we make more observations, our descriptions will become more accurate. It's called "science."

Without our collective understanding those laws, you wouldn't be talking to us now, Ian. Each character you type is testament to hundrends of years of engineering. Clearly at some level you understand the benefit of the accurate descriptions of reality science provides. That's your problem. You are constantly telling us how the "western science" is limiting our potential, but precisely the opposite is true. Without science, we wouldn't have the plastics that make up your keyboard, the computer you're typing on, the electric lines carrying power to your home, the fiber optic lines carrying your message to the forum server, and all of the rest of the technology that makes your ranting about "western science" here possible. It's adorable watching you get all worked up about science USING the very technology science provides.

So you can sit there on your ass wishing reality would conform to your imagination. Scientists have stopped wishing and started working.
 
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Once again, for the thinking impaired...

Let's keep this simple and concentrate on one of these things that Dawkin's apparently knows doesn't exist; namely Narnia.

Strawman. As analyzed earlier, Dawkins is not saying he knows Narnia doesn't exist.

What arguments does Dawkin's come out with that another world like Narnia, only accessible through magic, doesn't exist?

He never made that claim, so he has no need to provide those arguments.

Does he actually come out with any arguments for this assertion?

No, nor does he come out with the assertion itself.

If not are there any half decent arguments against the existence of worlds/Universes like Narnia?

Yes; read through this thread, and you will see several.

I'm guessing II has me on 'ignore', so could one of you kindly copy this so Ian may partake of it?

Thanks!
 
Is there some kind of study guide or summary available for this thread? I got lost a while back and some kind of position statement for the two sides beliefs would be good.

I only started reading this because I'd just finished The Lion the witch and the wardrobe. Turkish delight anyone?

I'm saying that we don't know whether any Narnia type world exists or not. Everybody else is saying either they do know or they are saying that it's overwhelmingly probable that no such type of world exists. I feel that such a world doesn't exist, but I deny that we can say that we either know it, or can claim that it's overwhelming improbable (how does one calculate probabilities in such a scenario??). Their justification for their position is that you cannot prove that Narnia type worlds do not exist.

They seem to have this axiom that if you cannot prove that X does not exist and likewise one cannot give any evidence or proof that X does exist, then it is reasonable to claim that we have knowledge or can be almost certain that X does not exist.

Their justification for this has not been forthcoming.
 
They seem to have this axiom that if you cannot prove that X does not exist and likewise one cannot give any evidence or proof that X does exist, then it is reasonable to claim that we have knowledge or can be almost certain that X does not exist.

Their justification for this has not been forthcoming.

Breakdown:

You cannot prove that X does not exist. In order to prove X does not exist, you would have to have access to all information in all existent realities/dimensions. For example, I can safely say that there are absolutely no live African elephants in my home, because I can access all parts of my home, and no African elephant can be observed within my home. But I cannot say there are no African elephants anywhere within a 12 mile radius, because I cannot examine the entire 12 mile radius to check for African elephants that may be wandering by.

If proof of X is nonexistent, then there is no reason to believe otherwise. Why? Simple practicality. If there is no proof of X, then X has no actual direct influence on our lives and our existence, save only whatever psychological influence belief in X may have. For example, if someone claims there is a huge flaming sword in their home, and there is no proof that such sword exists, there is no reason to believe this claim, since there is no chance of being either cut or burned by said sword. The only effect such sword has is the psychological effect on the afflicted person who may not enter his home due to his belief in this sword.

Now, it is right that to claim certain knowledge that X does not exist is erroneous; more properly, it is correct to state that, to the best of our knowledge, X does not exist; or, that X does not appear to exist; or, that X has been claimed to be fictional, and we have no reason to believe otherwise. As to 'almost certain', that would depend entirely upon the X under discussion. In the case of a world such as Narnia, in order to posit the possibility of its existence, we would have to come up with an internally logical construction of altered physics models that would allow for magic, talking animals, magic portals into our world (probably THE key stumbling block), and so forth. If we were to spend the time doing so, we could probably calculate what changes would be needed for another universe to contain a Narnia-like world; however, at best, we could only claim that a Narnia-like world is highly unlikely to exist within our universe. Of course, if we accept a multi-universe model, then ANY possible reality could exist; however, it is clear from Dawkins' statement that he wasn't discussing a multiverse model, but the simple Adult world - i.e. our modern, mundane, normal planet Earth. And on such an Earth, no Narnia exists -

- as far as we know.
 
Breakdown:

You cannot prove that X does not exist. In order to prove X does not exist, you would have to have access to all information in all existent realities/dimensions. For example, I can safely say that there are absolutely no live African elephants in my home, because I can access all parts of my home, and no African elephant can be observed within my home. But I cannot say there are no African elephants anywhere within a 12 mile radius, because I cannot examine the entire 12 mile radius to check for African elephants that may be wandering by.

Ah! I think I now understand why PixyMisa was going on about induction all the time. If X is some putative physical existent in the world which no one has ever experienced, then clearly, through inductive reasoning, the probability of X actually existing is small.

Unfortunately another world, should it exist, is not something within our physical Universe. Therefore this line of argument achieves nothing.
 
If proof of X is nonexistent, then there is no reason to believe otherwise. Why? Simple practicality. If there is no proof of X, then X has no actual direct influence on our lives and our existence, save only whatever psychological influence belief in X may have.

This is simply utterly preposterous. This is a basic tenet of logical empiricism which philosophers have long since abandoned.

For example, if someone claims there is a huge flaming sword in their home, and there is no proof that such sword exists, there is no reason to believe this claim, since there is no chance of being either cut or burned by said sword. The only effect such sword has is the psychological effect on the afflicted person who may not enter his home due to his belief in this sword.

If there is a sword in someones home then you can go into the home and see it. If you cannot see it or feel it then by definition it doesn't exist.

It's perfectly simple. A physical entity is defined by the causal role it plays in effecting its environment. If there is no effect on the environment whatsoever, then by definition it doesn't exist.

This is not at all the same for the proposed existence of other worlds/Universes. To exist they do not need to have any effect on our physical reality.

I think I'm beginning to understand peoples' confusion now though. People are treating another world on the same basis as a physical existent within our physical reality. In which case it is understandable why PixyMisa is appealing to induction. He doesn't understand that other worlds/Universes do not exist within our world!! :eek:
 
Ok, old school reference:

There is no elephant in my basement.

(Some of you may not get that.)


Now, Ian, I am concerned about something here. Throughout the course of your rounds of posting, yous start out rather coherent then degrade into what seems to be a belligerent angry refusal to actually read what is posted then erode further to name calling.

Are you posting while getting drunk? Because your behavior shows the same pattern as a belligerent drunk that gets rather angry when people don't agree with you.
 
If there is an other world which does not affect our world then there is no way to test for it since we need to measure an effect in this world. Likewise if a world like that existed then practically speaking it would amount to an imaginary world as far as we can tell since it as far as we can tell it doesn't exist.
 
If there is an other world which does not affect our world then there is no way to test for it since we need to measure an effect in this world. Likewise if a world like that existed then practically speaking it would amount to an imaginary world as far as we can tell since it as far as we can tell it doesn't exist.

As I said the same can be said for galaxies lying beyond the cosmic horizon. They are being carried away faster than the speed of light so they cannot possibly have any influence on us and can be detected by no means whatsoever. Yet it would be absurd to suggest the the Universe literally ends at the cosmic horizon.

We could even in principle get there by going through a wormhole.

Likewise we could get to the year 3000 in a fraction of a second (eg by travelling extremely close to teh speed of light). But the future does not affect the present (unless you subscribe to the notion of backwards causation).
 
As I said the same can be said for galaxies lying beyond the cosmic horizon. They are being carried away faster than the speed of light so they cannot possibly have any influence on us and can be detected by no means whatsoever. Yet it would be absurd to suggest the the Universe literally ends at the cosmic horizon.

We could even in principle get there by going through a wormhole.

Likewise we could get to the year 3000 in a fraction of a second (eg by travelling extremely close to teh speed of light). But the future does not affect the present (unless you subscribe to the notion of backwards causation).

Wow... do I detect some coherence, finally?

Yes, the same could be said for galaxies beyond the cosmic horizon - assuming nothing in any of our physical models suggests additional matter beyond our cosmic horizon, etc. However, if we could somehow move at FTL speeds and therefore reach out beyond our present ability to detect things, we would then have evidence of the existence of something else; likewise, the future does not exist, at the moment, but once we're in the future, obviously it would exist then.

Now, if you're discussing possible universes, then, yes, everything is possible. Even probable - if we can prove, somehow, that other universes exist. However, this isn't what Dawkins was discussing, now was it?

Simply put, he was discussing belief in the imaginary - i.e. those fictional things that were made up by people in our past, that make our childhoods more interesting and fantastical, such as fairies, Father Christmas, Narnia, etc. - and the emotional result of becoming an adult, and having to separate the imaginary from the real. Certainly, you cannot fault Dawkins for categorizing Narnia as a fictional/imaginary place, can you? ALL evidence for Narnia comes from or is derived from the works of a single individual, who has stated that this is purely a work of fiction; therefore, according to all available evidence, the world of Narnia is entirely fictitious and, therefore, not real. This is the only implied claim concerning Narnia that Dawkins was making, really.

Now, this, I think, might be worthy of some discussion:

Originally Posted by zaayrdragon :

If proof of X is nonexistent, then there is no reason to believe otherwise. Why? Simple practicality. If there is no proof of X, then X has no actual direct influence on our lives and our existence, save only whatever psychological influence belief in X may have.

This is simply utterly preposterous. This is a basic tenet of logical empiricism which philosophers have long since abandoned.

For one thing, let me correct my statement:

If evidence of X is nonexistent, then there is no reason to believe that X exists.... etc. Replace 'proof' with 'evidence'. My error.

Surely then, you could agree? After all, if we have no evidence of a thing existing, we can safely say that thing does not exist? Or do you still disagree, in this case?

(I do tend to erroneously use 'proof' when I mean 'evidence', just like I often use 'infer' when I mean 'imply')
 
As I said the same can be said for galaxies lying beyond the cosmic horizon. They are being carried away faster than the speed of light so they cannot possibly have any influence on us and can be detected by no means whatsoever. Yet it would be absurd to suggest the the Universe literally ends at the cosmic horizon.

We could even in principle get there by going through a wormhole.

Likewise we could get to the year 3000 in a fraction of a second (eg by travelling extremely close to teh speed of light). But the future does not affect the present (unless you subscribe to the notion of backwards causation).
It would be absurd to think we know what we don't know. And a waste of time to think about stuff without evidence for it's existence.
 
Another lying bastard. I made no such claim. I said he apparently knows. That is to say that from the extract I quoted it appears to be the case that he is saying he knows that no Narnia type worlds exist.

Perhaps we need to backtrack a bit then. I disagree with this primary assertion on which you base your entire discussion. I don't think it's apparent at all that Dawkins believed he knew with certainty that no Narnia-type worlds exist, based solely on that single statement. This would probably be a good starting point. Perhaps you can go into detail your reason for making this assertion. No doubt you will claim it obvious, and declare any that disagree as doo-doo heads, but I fail to find another single supporter of this assertion in this entire discussion. Perhaps you need to convince at least one person that Dawkins did believe such a thing, so that you may then properly argue with them that he was wrong to do so.

I'm saying that we don't know whether any Narnia type world exists or not. Everybody else is saying either they do know or they are saying that it's overwhelmingly probable that no such type of world exists. I feel that such a world doesn't exist, but I deny that we can say that we either know it, or can claim that it's overwhelming improbable (how does one calculate probabilities in such a scenario??). Their justification for their position is that you cannot prove that Narnia type worlds do not exist.

Given your reply earlier, I find this bolded part of your statement superfluous and intentionally misleading, as you have already made clear no one has said this. The statement is saved from being an outright lie, of course, by the qualifying 'or' and subsequent information. On that track, however, it is entirely consistent for such a world to be "overwhelming[sic] improbable" and yet not "know whether any Narnia type world exists or not". Therefore, you do not necessarily disagree with this misterious "everybody else" you complain about.

As to your final exasperation about probability, understand it this way. There are three possible scenarios for such a world:

1. There is not now, nor will there ever be any interaction between our existance and that world.
2. Interaction is one way. Specifically, we can travel from this existance to that world, but cannot return (e.g. an afterlife).
3. There is some possible interaction between our existance and that world.

Case 1 is resistant to any probability examination, but is also uninteresting, since there is absolutely nothing more do discuss about such a world. I'm sure this is painful for some, for such a wonderous world to be discarded out of hand just because it can never be touched, but that is how adults deal with things with no relation to themselves.

Case 2 is also resistant to any probability examination, but is discarded as uninteresting by skeptics. Their focus is on examining this existance, and the examination of others can wait until this one is finished.

Case 3 we can talk about probabilities a bit, but only in abstract terms. Since in our specific example, we're discussing travel, let's look at the history of travel discovery. In the beginning, man walked. After a time, man domesticated animals and used flowing water for travel power. Later, combustion allowed new records in speed, even permitting one to reach another planet within a lifetime.

In the end, though, the type of travel is still the same as the first. Given enough time, some gravity, a suitable surface to produce friction, and protection from the environment, it is still possible to walk to any destination reachable by the most advanced modes of travel. Therefore, for such a world to exist, there must exist a mode of travel very different from any so far and yet completely undiscovered in all of human history.

To a skeptic, the odds of such a discovery are the length of his lifetime(since discovery after his passing is relatively uninteresting for discussion) vs. all of history, which is very small indeed.

To a dreamer, the odds of such a discovery is all of the future vs. all of the past. The former being infinate and the later being at least no larger, the odds seem much better, I'm sure.
 

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