How do we know a pandemic's over?

[dann]

Your information is out of date. Since August of 2022, the CDC has been saying that people can end isolation 5 days after they first test positive or have symptoms, provided their symptoms are improving and they have had no fever for 24 hours. This is true even if they continue to test positive. They advise wearing a mask around others for 5 more days, however.

No, my information is not out of date. My information was a research article about asymptomatic transmission of the disease. jt512's reference to the CDC is about what the CDC tells people to do about it when they are infected. It is really not news that public health authorities all over the world have given very .... let's call it inexpedient advice to people throughout the pandemic. That is, inexpedient if the purpose was to prevent people from spreading the infection, which it often wasn't and isn't.

From the very beginning, some public health agencies refused to give advice according to what was known very soon, i.e. that SARS-CoV-2 was airborne and spread through aerosols and not through fomites and droplets. It was claimed that a combination of hand washing and keeping a distance of 2 meters indoors would help limit the spread. Sweden's state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell, for instance, criticized the ECDC for mentioning that the virus spreads as aerosols instead of through droplets because it would make it obvious that the Swedish claims, on which the Swedish strategy was based, were wrong: Indoors in poorly ventilated rooms, you can't distance yourself from airborne virus.

Many public health authorities still recommend hand washing as the main way to stop the spread. Others corrected false information from the early stage.

If instead of preventing or slowing down the infection, you actually 'want them infected' (the slogan is the title of Jonahan Howard's book and podcast series), then it makes sense to give people bad advice and information: that COVID-19 isn't airborne, that face masks don't work, that children don't get sick and/or don't spread the virus, that it's no worse than the flu or the common cold, that it only kills people "already in extremis," that vaccine is dangerous and infection is natural and thus healthy, that Long Covid is a delusion, that the pandemic is already over because we have achieved herd immunity (again and again),[/I] or in other words, all the damn lies we have been told throughout the pandemic.

By the way, the most recent advice mentioned in post 578 is for all of California, not just San Diego, and it's good advice if you want to help spread the virus. It is very bad advice if you want to protect yourself and others from it.

The CDC is not (yet?) as eager to spread the virus as the public health authorities in California:

Regardless of vaccination status, you should isolate from others when you have COVID-19.
You should also isolate if you are sick and suspect[/I] that you have COVID-19 but do not yet have test results. If your results are positive, follow the full isolation recommendations below. If your results are negative, you can end your isolation. Isolation and Precautions for People with COVID-19 (CDC, May 11, 2023)

When to end isolation, according to the CDC, is a little more complicated than what jt512 claims. See the same CDC page about Ending isolation. They are obviously much more keen on spreading the virus in California.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

It's already happening.
Unbelievably stupid. But that's humans for you. As the numbers from New Zealand show, just letting people get infected won't make it go away. All it does is help the virus stick around waiting for a chance to get a really good mutation - and then we will be really sorry that we didn't eliminate it when we had the chance.

How could we actually eliminate it?

The country who came closest to it was China, but their draconian measures were so massively disruptive to lives and economy that even they had to give up, after 3 years, and of course as soon as they open up, it flourishes again.

So what actual plausible plan would allow us to eliminate it permanently?

Having everyone in the world simultaneously isolate for 2 weeks? A global simultaneous vaccination push, with a 100% efficacy vaccine? It has to be global, else it just pops up again.

 

[The Atheist]

There has been quite a shift from the days of Delta which had more of an impact, (though still much smaller in absolute terms) in younger age groups.

Thanks mate, interesting. As you say, very small numbers.

So when The Atheist writes, "virtually everyone dying from covid is 80+," it means that the 2,044 (of 5,374) or 687 (of 2,330) C19 deaths in 0-79-year-olds are virtually non-existent in The Atheist's world. He doesn't see them, he doesn't register them, or, as he puts it:

Your dishonesty knows no bounds.

Those numbers are from the start of the pandemic, so are irrelevant to what's happening now, but I don't expect you to let facts stand in the way of a good attempt to panic. I specifically said deaths now, not in 2021/22.

Now, like some other countries, New Zealand has found a way to drastically reduce the embarrassing number of COVID-19 deaths since March '22. It is done by coding only less than half of them as official COVID-19 deaths

Yes, of course we should count people who died in a car crash within 28 days of having covid as a covid death.

Idiotic.

The Ministry of Health is clearly a lot more honest than you, coding only deaths from covid as deaths from covid.

You're hilarious.

 

[dann]

'We Want Them Infected!'

Unbelievably stupid. But that's humans for you. As the numbers from New Zealand show, just letting people get infected won't make it go away. All it does is help the virus stick around waiting for a chance to get a really good mutation - and then we will be really sorry that we didn't eliminate it when we had the chance.

We agree on most of this, but not on what constitutes humans.
In the quotation, there are obviously two kinds of humans: There are we, and there are them. 'We' are, for instance, whoever decided the new (anti-)isolation rules in California. Whereas 'they' are the people who are affected (and infected) by those rules.

There are scientists who study this disease and come up with all the laws of nature that SARS-CoV-2 and the immune system abide by. There are ordinary people, most of whom never get to hear about the science of the pandemic. And there are the captains of industry and their paid politicians and scientists, i.e. those who don't want people to do what it takes to not get infected and to keep the virus at bay because it means that business won't be running as smoothly as it did in pre-pandemic times while ignoring that an infection running rampant in and of itself makes the labor force less efficient and ruins the health of some employees completely and probably for ever. The latter is easily ignored because that is the problem of the employees and their families.

Unlike most ordinary people, you make an effort to keep up with the information. You also have the time to do so. Most people don't. With work and commuting and the kids getting sick all the time, how could they?

That's 'humans for you'! There are the ones who have the money to pay other people to make sure that they are safe: the #DavosStandard. 'Because we're worth it!' And there are the others, the ones who are told that there is really notthing to worry about: 'Infection is natural and good for you!' The ones who don't even deserve #PigStandard! 'Because they're not worth it.' In that group of undeserving we even find the useful idiots telling the other undeserving that they aren't good enough to deserve being protected by the fairly cheap air purifying systems, which are much too expensive for the likes of them. And the virus isn't dangerous to poor people anyway unless they are already wearing toe tags ...

You know how easily misled you yourself were by the NZ (dis)information about the updated vaccines, but don't blame it on humanity and don't even blame it on yourself. That's the whole point of disinformation: It disinforms!

The Davos ******** have people in their pay to keep them up to date with the latest science on protection and the corresponding technology. And they have other people (or maybe they're the same; I don't know) to disinform the rest of us: They Want Us Infected!

Don't fall for the canard about humanity. Humanity is fine, basically, but it is being led by the nose by people who aren't. Pandemic disinformation is an industry, and much like the other means of production the owners of that industry isn't humanity even though they are human, sort of. (It isn't difficult to see the appeal of David Icke's fairy tale about reptilians!)

 

[dann]

Thanks mate, interesting. As you say, very small numbers.

Notice the part of marting's post that The Atheist chooses to ignore entirely:

The SD report only covers acute stats. Turns out sequalae may be more of a factor than generally understood. And it appears to impact younger ages more than the elderly. Quite the opposite of the acute phase.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2021.778434/full
COVID-19 Post-acute Sequelae Among Adults: 12 Month Mortality Risk

Minimizers minimize. Sometimes they do so by simply ignoring all the information that doesn't suit their tall tales about the pandemic. And The Atheist really doesn't want people to know that COVID-19 sequelae may impact young people. On the contrary, he has been trying to deny the existence of Long Covid in the pandemic thread in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology sub-forum.

Your dishonesty knows no bounds.
Those numbers are from the start of the pandemic, so are irrelevant to what's happening now, but I don't expect you to let facts stand in the way of a good attempt to panic. I specifically said deaths now, not in 2021/22.

My honesty knows no bounds, which The Atheist's dishonesty finds it hard to come to terms with:
"Those numbers" aren't from the start of the pandemic. And The Atheist knows that they aren't!
"Those numbers" are from all of the pandemic. And in New Zealand, the great dying didn't really start till the spring of 2022, which can hardly be called "the start of the pandemic."

Of the 3,645 COVID-19 deaths on Jan 14, 2024, according to Our World in Data, only 65 are from the first two years of the pandemic. So - at this point, I think I can safely say, as always! - The Atheist is lying about the pandemic! Blatantly and deliberately!

The picture has changed since then after New Zealand started minimizing the number of C19 deaths which I explained and showed in my post. It's how the number 3,645 was reduced from 5,374. And it is how Our World in Data's number of Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths has been reduced even further to 2,330.
You saw it in my post. All three numbers, 5,374, 3,645 and 2,330. It is one of those things that The Atheist would never do. It is also the reason why he didn't include Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths from my post. His quotations from my posts are always very ... selective!

Yes, of course we should count people who died in a car crash within 28 days of having covid as a covid death.

The old minimizer lie, i.e. that a considerable number of people (if any at all) died in car crashes within 28 days of having covid and were thus registered as C19 deaths. In this thread, I have repeatedly cited the number of deaths from car crashes.

I think this was the first time:

Those traffic deaths! The Atheist can't seem to get enough of them:

According to the latest data, 352 persons lost their life in road crashes in 2019. This represents a 6.9% decline on 2018. In 2018, 378 persons lost their lives in traffic crashes in New Zealand
Road Safety Data (International Transport Forum)

Compared to:
Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths in New Zealand in 2022, i.e. Jan 1 to Sep 21 ... and counting.

1,924

If we ask people to watch where they're going, to stop looking at their cell phones while driving, and to use seatbelts and helmets in traffic, good luck trying to get them to pay attention to traffic lights! What were we talking about? Really?!

Minimizers gonna minimize!

They are indeed!

Idiotic.
The Ministry of Health is clearly a lot more honest than you, coding only deaths from covid as deaths from covid.
You're hilarious.

Idiotic indeed!
The Ministry of Health is a lot more honest than The Atheist and shows both the Age and ethnicity of deaths within 28 days of being reported as a case[/I] and Age and ethnicity of deaths where COVID-19 is officially coded as the underlying cause.
Who else showed both number? I did!
Who didn't show both number? The Atheist, obviously!

The Atheist finds full disclosure idiotic and hilarious.
It is obvious why!

 

[jt512]

No, my information is not out of date. My information was a research article about asymptomatic transmission of the disease. jt512's reference to the CDC is about what the CDC tells people to do about it when they are infected. It is really not news that public health authorities all over the world have given very .... let's call it inexpedient advice to people throughout the pandemic. That is, inexpedient if the purpose was to prevent people from spreading the infection, which it often wasn't and isn't.

From the very beginning, some public health agencies refused to give advice according to what was known very soon, i.e. that SARS-CoV-2 was airborne and spread through aerosols and not through fomites and droplets. It was claimed that a combination of hand washing and keeping a distance of 2 meters indoors would help limit the spread. Sweden's state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell, for instance, criticized the ECDC for mentioning that the virus spreads as aerosols instead of through droplets because it would make it obvious that the Swedish claims, on which the Swedish strategy was based, were wrong: Indoors in poorly ventilated rooms, you can't distance yourself from airborne virus.

Many public health authorities still recommend hand washing as the main way to stop the spread. Others corrected false information from the early stage.

If instead of preventing or slowing down the infection, you actually 'want them infected' (the slogan is the title of Jonahan Howard's book and podcast series), then it makes sense to give people bad advice and information: that COVID-19 isn't airborne, that face masks don't work, that children don't get sick and/or don't spread the virus, that it's no worse than the flu or the common cold, that it only kills people "already in extremis," that vaccine is dangerous and infection is natural and thus healthy, that Long Covid is a delusion, that the pandemic is already over because we have achieved herd immunity (again and again),[/I] or in other words, all the damn lies we have been told throughout the pandemic.

By the way, the most recent advice mentioned in post 578 is for all of California, not just San Diego, and it's good advice if you want to help spread the virus. It is very bad advice if you want to protect yourself and others from it.

The CDC is not (yet?) as eager to spread the virus as the public health authorities in California:


When to end isolation, according to the CDC, is a little more complicated than what jt512 claims. See the same CDC page about Ending isolation. They are obviously much more keen on spreading the virus in California.

Well, that's the most unhinged rant I've seen in a long time. To think, I actually thought you could be reasoned with.

 

[icerat]

Well, that's the most unhinged rant I've seen in a long time. To think, I actually thought you could be reasoned with.

Which part is "unhinged"? Can you be specific?

 

[dann]

How could we actually eliminate it?

The country who came closest to it was China, but their draconian measures were so massively disruptive to lives and economy that even they had to give up, after 3 years, and of course as soon as they open up, it flourishes again.

So what actual plausible plan would allow us to eliminate it permanently?

Having everyone in the world simultaneously isolate for 2 weeks? A global simultaneous vaccination push, with a 100% efficacy vaccine? It has to be global, else it just pops up again.

Are you actually interested in eradicating the virus, i.e. eliminating it permanently? Eradication and letting it run wild aren't the only two options! The reason why China allegedly "had to give up" shouldn't be ignored. 'Had to' gives China an excuse of giving up, but I am not sure that China should be excused for this. And why pretend that China was the country that came closest to eradicating SARS-CoV-2?

1) New Zealand not only came close but actually managed to eliminate the virus, and its measures were far from draconian. NZ actually succeeded in doing so a couple of times. So did Iceland, which didn't even have a ZeroCovid strategy, but merely attempted to suppress it as much as possible, which resulted in eliminating it - also more than once.

2) China didn't abandon its ZeroCovid policy until Western industrialists threatened to move their production lines in China to other countries, which I find interesting. In my opinion, it was very wrong of China to give in to the pressure from abroad in this respect. However, I am also in doubt that China's ZeroCovid policy was ever as successful as we were given the impression that it was. This report, for instance, makes it seem as if the virus was all over China even before the country adopted the learn-to-live-with-the-virus 'strategy':

CNN's Selina Wang traveled to rural China during the traditional Lunar New Year. See how government officials responded.
See moment that shocked CNN reporter during interview deep in rural China (CNN on YouTube, Jan 27, 2023 - 9:37 min.)

But CNN (and most of the Western media, actually) was campaigning against China's restrictions almost from day one, so it's hard to tell if the report is reliable. I don't know.

3) Some countries are actually doing much, much better than the majority of Western countries: Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people (Our World in Data). I have cut it off at Jan 1, 2023, because many countries stopped reporting at some point last year, but the graph still shows that letting the virus run wild after vaccinations is not the only alternative to ZeroCovid.
Notice that Singapore, for instance, has one of the highest population densities in the world: 8,592 per km² (in comparison: USA: 96; UK: 270; Italy 200). And Cuba managed to reduce its horrendous death toll during the Delta wave to zero in a year thanks to its own vaccines and occasional mandatory masking. In the case of both Singapore and Cuba, it should be stressed that they both got almost their entire populations vaccinated - including young children, i.e. six-month-olds+ in the case of Singapore. I am not sure if Cuba starts at six months or at 2+, but by vaccinating women during pregnancy, babies probably get some protection.

4) At this point, we don't even know what the long-term effect on children will be of gettng infected again and again, and yet we let them be exposed to repeated infections. We do know that more and more people will get Long Covid. The vaccines (in particular the updated versions) offer some protection from hospitalization, Long Covid and death, but every new infection still includes the risk of all three outcomes. It is not as if one apparently mild acute infection means that the next one won't leave you debilitated. Many people are not aware of this. (Recently, Long Covid has been mentioned often in the other thread.)

 

[jt512]

Which part is "unhinged"? Can you be specific?

Seriously? I can't believe I'm actually dignifying that question with an answer. He is claiming that public health agencies are actually trying to promote infection.

 

[icerat]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. The only part of it I think is significantly wrong is the belief that SARS2 had significantly spread in China before they changed policy.

 

[dann]

An appeal to Maria Van Kerkhove from down under:

Please help us in New Zealand. Our new government has decided to wait to release the updated XBB vaccine to its population for our winter (June 2024!).
They think "Covid is seasonal" despite our biggest waves being last summer and this summer.
WicMar (X, Jan 22, 2024)

Same in Oz… co temp table.. and we have a ‘progressive’ government
Dr Kelly Jones #cleanairclassrooms (X, Jan 22, 2024)

You have the updated XBB Pfizer and Moderna though in Australia? We don't have any XBB vaccines.
We are still using the 2022 bivalents, and the government says they still work 'based on a study' from 2022!
Embarrassing @minhealthnz @DrShaneRetiMP
WicMar (X, Jan 22, 2024)

Novavax vaccine update
20/12/2023:
Medsafe requested additional information from Novavax.
18/01/2024:
Additional evaluation started.
Living Safely With Covid #CovidIsAirborne @CovidSafeNZ (X, Jan 22, 2024)

5 months later.
NZ grant the updated XBB Novavax to the people for the winter! Halleluja!
Meanwhile the rest of the world has used it for 9 months.
WicMar (X, Jan 22, 2024)

 

[jt512]

Yes, seriously. The only part of it I think is significantly wrong is the belief that SARS2 had significantly spread in China before they changed policy.

Well, I think the part of it...which is to say just about all of it...where he says that public health agencies are trying to perpetuate the disease is unhinged. If you disagree, perhaps you should be owning a global conspiracy theory forum rather than a skeptical one.

 

[dann]

PS

But that's humans for you.

Just stumbled on this:

So I posted something about long covid on Instagram this morning & the number of messages I’ve received - ‘why don’t we know about this?’ ‘Why isn’t this on the news?’. People honestly have no idea what covid is doing to their bodies. Absolutely clueless! Public health???
Lara Crowther (X, Jan 22, 2024)

They responded?! Bravo!!
Covid Solidarity
(X, Jan 22, 2024)

I haven’t stopped chatting about it for 3 hrs-they want papers! IG needs to targeted because it’s largely Aseem Malhotra blaming everything going on vaccines - the replies I’ve received from his followers Who knew I just had to eat the diet I’ve been eating for 9 yrs
Lara Crowther (X, Jan 22, 2024)

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

Are you actually interested in eradicating the virus, i.e. eliminating it permanently? Eradication and letting it run wild aren't the only two options! The reason why China allegedly "had to give up" shouldn't be ignored. 'Had to' gives China an excuse of giving up, but I am not sure that China should be excused for this. And why pretend that China was the country that came closest to eradicating SARS-CoV-2?

1) New Zealand not only came close but actually managed to eliminate the virus, and its measures were far from draconian. NZ actually succeeded in doing so a couple of times. So did Iceland, which didn't even have a ZeroCovid strategy, but merely attempted to suppress it as much as possible, which resulted in eliminating it - also more than once.

2) China didn't abandon its ZeroCovid policy until Western industrialists threatened to move their production lines in China to other countries, which I find interesting. In my opinion, it was very wrong of China to give in to the pressure from abroad in this respect. However, I am also in doubt that China's ZeroCovid policy was ever as successful as we were given the impression that it was. This report, for instance, makes it seem as if the virus was all over China even before the country adopted the learn-to-live-with-the-virus 'strategy':


But CNN (and most of the Western media, actually) was campaigning against China's restrictions almost from day one, so it's hard to tell if the report is reliable. I don't know.

3) Some countries are actually doing much, much better than the majority of Western countries: Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people (Our World in Data). I have cut it off at Jan 1, 2023, because many countries stopped reporting at some point last year, but the graph still shows that letting the virus run wild after vaccinations is not the only alternative to ZeroCovid.
Notice that Singapore, for instance, has one of the highest population densities in the world: 8,592 per km² (in comparison: USA: 96; UK: 270; Italy 200). And Cuba managed to reduce its horrendous death toll during the Delta wave to zero in a year thanks to its own vaccines and occasional mandatory masking. In the case of both Singapore and Cuba, it should be stressed that they both got almost their entire populations vaccinated - including young children, i.e. six-month-olds+ in the case of Singapore. I am not sure if Cuba starts at six months or at 2+, but by vaccinating women during pregnancy, babies probably get some protection.

4) At this point, we don't even know what the long-term effect on children will be of gettng infected again and again, and yet we let them be exposed to repeated infections. We do know that more and more people will get Long Covid. The vaccines (in particular the updated versions) offer some protection from hospitalization, Long Covid and death, but every new infection still includes the risk of all three outcomes. It is not as if one apparently mild acute infection means that the next one won't leave you debilitated. Many people are not aware of this. (Recently, Long Covid has been mentioned often in the other thread.)

1. Both relatively small Islands. How would a European country do it? And if New Zealand eliminated it, how did it come back? The infectivity of the modern variants is far higher than before.

2. China abandoned zero covid not because of Western industrialists, but because its population had finally run out of patience after 3 years and was starting to riot. That is the only thing that the Xi cared about, that the population was no longer controllable and social stability was affected.

Although I agree its highly likely we will never actually know how many died in China, as they cover everything up as a matter of course. So I would use Hong Kong as a better example, whose stats are actually trustworthy and fact checkable.

Hong Kong had 21 day quarantine, universal mandatory mask wearing for 3 years, mass testing of buildings where a single infection was found, forced isolation of infected in centres, much higher criteria for recovery than most countries, relatively high vaccination and even Hong Kong couldn't keep a lid on Omicron in 2022. 1 or two cases a day zoomed up to 75,000 new cases per day within a few weeks, at which point even that government had to throw in the towel and admit that it was uncontrollable, and there was no alternative but herd immunity from vaccination and direct infection.

So do you think its possible to actually to eliminate the virus globally, once and for all, for a variant that is even more infectious than omicron? And do you think global society is prepared to endorse what would need to be done? Not sure I do.

And if we can't eliminate it, what could we do to mitigate it, again bearing in mind a the real world concern of a population weary of more restrictions, vaccinations etc.

 

[dann]

1. Both relatively small Islands. How would a European country do it? And if New Zealand eliminated it, how did it come back? The infectivity of the modern variants is far higher than before.

New Zealand is much larger than many European countries: 268,021 km²! Denmark: 43,094 km²; Belgium: 30,689 km²; Netherlands 41,865 km² (much of it water!); Great Britain: 209,331 km² (That one surprised me! NZ is even bigger than the UK.
It came back because the border control slipped a couple of times. And yes, it was a bad idea to give the virus the opportunity to evolve to the extent it did, becoming more infectious and better at evading immunity.

2. China abandoned zero covid not because of Western industrialists, but because its population had finally run out of patience after 3 years and was starting to riot. That is the only thing that the Xi cared about, that the population was no longer controllable and social stability was affected.

Yes, that's the story we were told by Western media, which broadcast every little Chinese voice (and Western voice in China). And yet, China didn't let the virus loose until Western companies threatened to move production to other countries. Thailand was a favorite, if I remember correctly.
There were no riots, only peaceful protests: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/longform/2022/12/22/the-protests-that-exposed-cracks-in-chinas-middle-class-dream (AlJazeera, Dec 22, 2023)
That the Western media would like to have seen riots is another thing. Similar protests in the West would hardly have been noticed by the media.

Although I agree its highly likely we will never actually know how many died in China, as they cover everything up as a matter of course. So I would use Hong Kong as a better example, whose stats are actually trustworthy and fact checkable.

Hong Kong had 21 day quarantine, universal mandatory mask wearing for 3 years, mass testing of buildings where a single infection was found, forced isolation of infected in centres, much higher criteria for recovery than most countries, relatively high vaccination and even Hong Kong couldn't keep a lid on Omicron in 2022. 1 or two cases a day zoomed up to 75,000 new cases per day within a few weeks, at which point even that government had to throw in the towel and admit that it was uncontrollable, and there was no alternative but herd immunity from vaccination and direct infection.

Yes, China used the same excuse as the Western world: even the government had to surrender to an invincible enemy, and people were allegedly against restrictions. The economy wasn't mentioned as the reason because that particular excuse doesn't sell as well. Particularly not in an alleged people's republic.
I am not sure if you understand this, but are you aware that the alternative that you mention doesn't actually exist and never existed with this virus, i.e. "herd immunity from vaccination and direct infection"? Are you aware that many countries attempted to achieve herd immunity from the start - without vaccines? And are you aware that they lied about it? jt512 will probably claim that it's yet another conspiracy theory, but it is not a theory, unfortunately. And IIRC, icerat mentioned it in an article.

So do you think its possible to actually to eliminate the virus globally, once and for all, for a variant that is even more infectious than omicron? And do you think global society is prepared to endorse what would need to be done? Not sure I do.

And if we can't eliminate it, what could we do to mitigate it, again bearing in mind a the real world concern of a population weary of more restrictions, vaccinations etc.

JN.1, which is currently running rampant in most of the world, is actually an Omicron sub-variant.

That the population is allegedly "weary of more restrictions, vaccinations etc." is a phantasmagoria we are being told to believe in by the media and right-wing think tanks like the Brownstone Institute. In most of the Western world, there have been no restrictions since very early 2022. In my own country, those restrictions were few and far between, and they were nowhere near anything that could be called draconic like in China and Italy where, by the way, 'draconian' measures were necessary.

I'm not a pollster, but I get the impression that people are more pissed off by the constant claims from public health officials that we have now achieved herd immunity, super immunity, whatever immunity, when it is obvious to everybody that we haven't. I haven't heard a single one of my friends and acquaintances say that they are tired of masking up and getting the shots. They all line up for the shots they are eligible for, and those who aren't are angry that people younger than 65 are no longer eligible for the free shots. But they still pay up to get them anyway. They don't usually mask up, and they come up with all kinds of dumb excuses, but it often becomes apparent that they don't like to do so because the majority of people don't do it, and the majority of people don't understand that masks work and protect them from infection, which is not surprising since it's one of those facts they haven't been told. I haven't even once heard the argument that face masks were so uncomfortable or unpleasant to wear that they would rather not do so. A few of my friends who were honest with both themselves and me admitted that they didn't like to stand out by wearing a mask.
Currently, it's necessary for maskers to not give a **** about what other people think of you.

However, I have seen plenty of antimaskers and antivaxxers online, on X or here, for instance, spreading their lies and thus contributing to making people feel embarrassed about wearing face masks. I have also seen several complaints from people who do wear face masks and experience harassment from aggressive antimaskers. Most of the people on X complaining about this kind of harassment are women. It never happened to me, not even once. Nobody has as much as asked me why I mask up. I kind of wish they would, so I could explain it to them. I assume that antimaskers are just cowardly trolls who feel brave online or when they see a woman wearing a face mask on the bus or in the grocery store.

Have you seen or heard anybody at all complain about being weary of air purifiers? Have you heard anybody say that they have had enough of virus-free air and can't put up with any more of it? (Anybody but The Atheist, that is, but I don't think he is a "real world concern.")

 

[TragicMonkey]

It seems there's little the individual can do except for take steps for their own individual safety. I resumed masking when going out back in December, and have not been confronted or criticized for it although I have noticed some looks. Possibly they were admiring my beautiful hair, though. I've been letting it grow out a little more than usual and if I do say so myself it's a shimmering lustrous mane of dark amber glory mingled with the radiance of purest white shooting through like falling stars across the majesty of the nighttime heavens. And it smells like coconut passionfruit peach, according to the label on the shampoo, which was seven dollars.

 

[The Atheist]

Seriously?

If you thought that was nuts, how about a descent into complete insanity?

Are you actually interested in eradicating the virus, i.e. eliminating it permanently?

Elimination is a strategy that only a truly deluded person would even contemplate.

Still given this level of ignorance, I guess it fits:

New Zealand not only came close but actually managed to eliminate the virus, and its measures were far from draconian.

"Far from draconian!"

From someone who has no clue whatsoever. The incredibly draconian measures implemented not only failed, they cost the country somewhere around $40B.

Since we don't steal money off billionaires to pay for that, it's the taxpayers who will be doing so for the next 50 years. Why do you hate workers so much?

The idiocy gets worse by the day.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, I think the part of it...which is to say just about all of it...where he says that public health agencies are trying to perpetuate the disease is unhinged. If you disagree, perhaps you should be owning a global conspiracy theory forum rather than a skeptical one.

A global CT forum? Your post makes no sense.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

New Zealand is much larger than many European countries: 268,021 km²! Denmark: 43,094 km²; Belgium: 30,689 km²; Netherlands 41,865 km² (much of it water!); Great Britain: 209,331 km² (That one surprised me! NZ is even bigger than the UK.
It came back because the border control slipped a couple of times. And yes, it was a bad idea to give the virus the opportunity to evolve to the extent it did, becoming more infectious and better at evading immunity.




Yes, that's the story we were told by Western media, which broadcast every little Chinese voice (and Western voice in China). And yet, China didn't let the virus loose until Western companies threatened to move production to other countries. Thailand was a favorite, if I remember correctly.
There were no riots, only peaceful protests: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/longform/2022/12/22/the-protests-that-exposed-cracks-in-chinas-middle-class-dream (AlJazeera, Dec 22, 2023)
That the Western media would like to have seen riots is another thing. Similar protests in the West would hardly have been noticed by the media.




Yes, China used the same excuse as the Western world: even the government had to surrender to an invincible enemy, and people were allegedly against restrictions. The economy wasn't mentioned as the reason because that particular excuse doesn't sell as well. Particularly not in an alleged people's republic.
I am not sure if you understand this, but are you aware that the alternative that you mention doesn't actually exist and never existed with this virus, i.e. "herd immunity from vaccination and direct infection"? Are you aware that many countries attempted to achieve herd immunity from the start - without vaccines? And are you aware that they lied about it? jt512 will probably claim that it's yet another conspiracy theory, but it is not a theory, unfortunately. And IIRC, icerat mentioned it in an article.




JN.1, which is currently running rampant in most of the world, is actually an Omicron sub-variant.

That the population is allegedly "weary of more restrictions, vaccinations etc." is a phantasmagoria we are being told to believe in by the media and right-wing think tanks like the Brownstone Institute. In most of the Western world, there have been no restrictions since very early 2022. In my own country, those restrictions were few and far between, and they were nowhere near anything that could be called draconic like in China and Italy where, by the way, 'draconian' measures were necessary.

I'm not a pollster, but I get the impression that people are more pissed off by the constant claims from public health officials that we have now achieved herd immunity, super immunity, whatever immunity, when it is obvious to everybody that we haven't. I haven't heard a single one of my friends and acquaintances say that they are tired of masking up and getting the shots. They all line up for the shots they are eligible for, and those who aren't are angry that people younger than 65 are no longer eligible for the free shots. But they still pay up to get them anyway. They don't usually mask up, and they come up with all kinds of dumb excuses, but it often becomes apparent that they don't like to do so because the majority of people don't do it, and the majority of people don't understand that masks work and protect them from infection, which is not surprising since it's one of those facts they haven't been told. I haven't even once heard the argument that face masks were so uncomfortable or unpleasant to wear that they would rather not do so. A few of my friends who were honest with both themselves and me admitted that they didn't like to stand out by wearing a mask.
Currently, it's necessary for maskers to not give a **** about what other people think of you.

However, I have seen plenty of antimaskers and antivaxxers online, on X or here, for instance, spreading their lies and thus contributing to making people feel embarrassed about wearing face masks. I have also seen several complaints from people who do wear face masks and experience harassment from aggressive antimaskers. Most of the people on X complaining about this kind of harassment are women. It never happened to me, not even once. Nobody has as much as asked me why I mask up. I kind of wish they would, so I could explain it to them. I assume that antimaskers are just cowardly trolls who feel brave online or when they see a woman wearing a face mask on the bus or in the grocery store.

Have you seen or heard anybody at all complain about being weary of air purifiers? Have you heard anybody say that they have had enough of virus-free air and can't put up with any more of it? (Anybody but The Atheist, that is, but I don't think he is a "real world concern.")

1. The point is they are Islands. Hence can close the borders completely.

2. No, there were riots, that involved huge stand offs with police, trashing of buildings and covid testing booths etc. That you didn't see this simply means China did a good job of censoring it, but the riots happened, and video is still available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_COVID-19_protests_in_China

And, again, your timing is wrong. Western companies had been derisking for a long time, closing factories and moving to other places, Vietnam in particular. Xi didnt care about that, against the advice of his premier, Li, who was actively concerned about the economy, because zero covid had become so closely associated with Xi, it was his personal policy. Even in December 2022, he was still publically unshakable in his belief that Zero Covid was the way forward, forever.

Then the riots started happening, and in 1 month, zero covid was over. Just like that.

And you completely ignored my example of Hong Kong. If all those restrictions couldn't stop it from spreading uncontrollably, what possibly could? There was no alternative to lifting the restrictions in Hong Kong, because they demonstrably had failed, and were overly onerous on the population TO NO GOOD EFFECT. Once it was out, it was out.

And, I think masking may have helped a bit initially, but it didnt stop Omicron. And that is in a population where it was illegal to NOT wear a mask, where you could and were fined on the spot. Where everybody wore a mask, police, bus drivers, children, even babies.

So again, what do you suggest that governments and people do?

The brutal truth is that life is a bit more dangerous now than before Covid, and there is nothing we can do about it, beyond cutting ourselves off completely. The vast majority have come to terms with that, and have learned to live with it.

Whats your plan? Are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life?

 

[The Atheist]

The brutal truth is that life is a bit more dangerous now than before Covid, and there is nothing we can do about it, beyond cutting ourselves off completely. The vast majority have come to terms with that, and have learned to live with it.

Absolutely correct.

The number of people concerned about covid is infinitesimal, which is as it should be. Governments aren't concerned, health departments aren't concerned and only a very few squeaky wheels are bleating on about it.