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How Can they Stop the Oil Spill?

Ta.
pretty much what I expected so far
BP- It's Transocean's BOP.
Transocean "We were only obeying orders".
Halliburton " A big boy did it and ran away.

There's nothing false in what all three say, it's just beside the point.
This was a team operation.
Which failed.
Now we need to know exactly what failed, so we don't do it again.
 
Sessions' question about displacing the riser is spot on IMO.
And all three waffled.
The answer is " No, it most certainly ain't normal to remove your primary barrier before you are 100% sure of the others - and Yes, if they had not done it when they did, the kick probably could have been controlled."
 
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What would a nuclear (or any large) detonation do to all the methane?

Dunno, but I know what it would do to the rigs drilling relief wells.
There is no doubt that this solution is completely off the table. For one thing, only the government is allowed to detonate nuclear bombs of any size, and they are certainly not going to enter this fray. It is possible that it might possibly work in certain environments (though I'm dubious about the Russian claims), but the "get a bigger hammer" strategem is not going to be used in this sensitive, relatively unknown environment. No way in hell.
 
When I saw the report about the Russians using nukes I thought back to this thread and smiled.
 
Ironically, they actually did use nukes in the field where I work now, in an attempt to create underground storage areas. Super-frac job, essentially. Didn't work.
The oil is moderately radioactive though, thirty years on...
The very idea is lunacy and only a complete nutjob would take it seriously. The only way we actually know of to control this well is by drilling relief wells into it. Which is what BP started as soon as they could. That takes time. They daren't rush it and make things worse. Imagine if there's an accident during the drilling.
The last thing we need in the Gulf is cowboys with nukes.
 
That seems to be the plan, yes.

Dumb plan.

What about them?

Thanks for demonstrating the idiotic myopia of the Age of Oil.


The damage to our ecosystem is not caused by spilling oil. It's caused by burning it. Every barrel of oil currently tarring and feathering seabirds would otherwise have been burned, directly or indirectly and would have entered the ecosystem in some form.
When we see the stuff wash up on a beach we are presented with the reality of habitat destruction caused by our hunger for energy.
That we do not object when we personally do, on purpose, what has happened here by accident might seem a tad hypocritical.

Pumping crude oil into the sea certainly damages our ecosystem just as burning the stuff does. I object to both activities.




Americans mostly, Californians in particular, closely followed by Europeans.

You don't think Nigerians aren't objecting to the devastation of oil extraction?
 
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Dumb plan.
I couldn't agree more.


Thanks for demonstrating the idiotic myopia of the Age of Oil.
You're welcome. I don't have descendants. That is not a chance occurrence.


Pumping crude oil into the sea certainly damages our ecosystem just as burning the stuff does. I object to both activities.
Good. So you don't own a car, use public transport, use anything containing plastics or synthetic hydrocarbons (clothes or computers for example), use electricity generated by burning hydrocarbons, eat anything involving the use of organic chemicals or fertilisers, or use any pharmaceuticals , cosmetics or other chemicals derived from oil?

Congratulations.

You don't think Nigerians aren't objecting to the devastation of oil extraction?
I think the Nigerian government isn't, except where it sees a chance of a kickback from the energy companies. I think the way many Nigerians have been treated by their own government in cahoots with the oil business is as shabby as that of many other peoples- Turkish and Iraqi Kurds for example.

I was referring to the fact that many westerners- especially in California and Florida, while enjoying high-energy lifestyles, hypocritically object to any prospect of looking for oil and gas in their own neighbourhood.
Object by all means, but such objection would carry more moral weight if people actually did choose to do without the stuff.
 
Ironically, they actually did use nukes in the field where I work now, in an attempt to create underground storage areas. Super-frac job, essentially. Didn't work.
The oil is moderately radioactive though, thirty years on...
The very idea is lunacy and only a complete nutjob would take it seriously. The only way we actually know of to control this well is by drilling relief wells into it. Which is what BP started as soon as they could. That takes time. They daren't rush it and make things worse. Imagine if there's an accident during the drilling.
The last thing we need in the Gulf is cowboys with nukes.


Sounds like one of Edward Teller's schemes.
 
Good. So you don't own a car, use public transport, use anything containing plastics or synthetic hydrocarbons (clothes or computers for example), use electricity generated by burning hydrocarbons, eat anything involving the use of organic chemicals or fertilisers, or use any pharmaceuticals , cosmetics or other chemicals derived from oil?

Congratulations.

We have a society built around cars. We expend vast sums of tax payer money building roads and supporting infrastructure centered on oil. Unless someone lives in a major city (or rather, a few select major cities) it is impossible to get by without a car.

The is nothing hypocritical about living in such a society and advocating for a change of policy.

As I said earlier, gas prices in America (as of 1998--it's even worse now) are subsidised at a rate of $15-1. If that same ratio of government intervention was used on better sources of energy, trains, electric cars...etc, we could move away from oil very quickly.

I have a car and advocate a change to the system. Call me evil, I guess.

I was referring to the fact that many westerners- especially in California and Florida, while enjoying high-energy lifestyles, hypocritically object to any prospect of looking for oil and gas in their own neighbourhood.
Object by all means, but such objection would carry more moral weight if people actually did choose to do without the stuff.

Looking for oil and gas in our neighborhood is a waste of time. It's an outdated, primitive way of obtaining energy, and the costs are too great. Not to mention the available oil is a pittance:

http://blog.sustainablog.org/wp-content/files/2008/09/usoilconsumption.jpg
 
As I said earlier, gas prices in America (as of 1998--it's even worse now) are subsidised at a rate of $15-1. If that same ratio of government intervention was used on better sources of energy, trains, electric cars...etc, we could move away from oil very quickly.
Could you explain what subsidy you are talking about ?
 
We have a society built around cars. We expend vast sums of tax payer money building roads and supporting infrastructure centered on oil. Unless someone lives in a major city (or rather, a few select major cities) it is impossible to get by without a car.

The is nothing hypocritical about living in such a society and advocating for a change of policy.
No there isn't. I wish more people would actively push for such change.

What is hypocritical is wanting to have our cake, eat it and simultaneously whining about the fact that occasionally, flour mills explode.
I have a car and advocate a change to the system. Call me evil, I guess.
I'm not calling anybody evil. I have a car too. I'm simply pointing out the fact that so long as we want it, we will go on looking for it. If we want to stop looking for it , that's fine. But we need to cut our coat accordingly. If we stop drilling for oil today, a lot of people will die tomorrow.


Looking for oil and gas in our neighborhood is a waste of time. It's an outdated, primitive way of obtaining energy, and the costs are too great. Not to mention the available oil is a pittance:

Not sure where you live TraneWreck. I guess it's not Louisiana. Nobody knew that reservoir was there till someone decided to spend a great deal of money finding out. Had it gone safely into production, I doubt we'd be hearing the complaints about offshore drilling we are. In fact I'd bet many of the people currently complaining would have been quite content to put the product in their car and go right on destroying the very environment they are so upset about today.

http://blog.sustainablog.org/wp-content/files/2008/09/usoilconsumption.jpgThe bottom line is, we either get serious about conserving oil for the future, or we don't. Preaching about it doesn't count. Dead seabirds and shrimps are not the issue. The issue is the way we live.
 
Not sure where you live TraneWreck. I guess it's not Louisiana. Nobody knew that reservoir was there till someone decided to spend a great deal of money finding out. Had it gone safely into production, I doubt we'd be hearing the complaints about offshore drilling we are. In fact I'd bet many of the people currently complaining would have been quite content to put the product in their car and go right on destroying the very environment they are so upset about today.

That's a pretty massive if.

You're basically arguing that no one would complain if there weren't any problems.

I opposed "Drill Baby, Drill" before the spill. One of the primary reasons was the likelihood of a spill, though there were others.

I don't know why I should ignore the potential negatives of a chosen course of action when evaluating the prudence of said action.

http://blog.sustainablog.org/wp-content/files/2008/09/usoilconsumption.jpgThe bottom line is, we either get serious about conserving oil for the future, or we don't. Preaching about it doesn't count. Dead seabirds and shrimps are not the issue. The issue is the way we live.

Sure, no disagreement there. But it has to be asked, why can't we move forward and eliminate the reliance on fossil fuels?

In America, there's a very specific answer and a more general one. The specific problem: The United States Senate. The House has already passed a solid bill that starts moving the country away from primitive energy sources.

The general problem: the massive, powerful oil industry, their political allies (political servants, perhaps), and the money they devote to distorting scientific reality.

Look, the source of the current catastrophe is simple. Once in office, Cheney was so eager to deregulate industry that they eliminated the need for $500,000 accostic shut off switches:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704423504575212031417936798.html

If that cheap switch is in place, this becomes a tragic event that killed 11 workers, instead of a historic catastrophe.

It's also worth noting that BP, this corporate bastion of environmental responsibility, chose to save $500,000 on a $560 million rig. This is why regulation is necessary. Business cannot be relied upon to act responsibly without the threat of consequence.

But the larger story involves decades of dedication to creating doubt about climate science, to reinforce this bizarre meme that drilling is "safe," and generally promote hatred of "government" such that the regulators become the enemy.

I don't know exactly where "people who want structural change but still drive cars" fall on the list of threats to the environment, but it's probably somewhere near "burps."
 
That's a pretty massive if.

You're basically arguing that no one would complain if there weren't any problems.

I opposed "Drill Baby, Drill" before the spill. One of the primary reasons was the likelihood of a spill, though there were others.

I don't know why I should ignore the potential negatives of a chosen course of action when evaluating the prudence of said action.
" You should not. So when you say you opposed drilling, what form did your opposition take? You sold your car, bought a pushbike, wrote letters to your representatives at local , state and federal level, then what? Or would my guess be right that what you actually did was grumble a bit to anyone who would listen. (Just like what the rest of us do).



Sure, no disagreement there. But it has to be asked, why can't we move forward and eliminate the reliance on fossil fuels?

In America, there's a very specific answer and a more general one. The specific problem: The United States Senate. The House has already passed a solid bill that starts moving the country away from primitive energy sources.

The general problem: the massive, powerful oil industry, their political allies (political servants, perhaps), and the money they devote to distorting scientific reality.

Look, the source of the current catastrophe is simple. Once in office, Cheney was so eager to deregulate industry that they eliminated the need for $500,000 accostic shut off switches:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704423504575212031417936798.html

If that cheap switch is in place, this becomes a tragic event that killed 11 workers, instead of a historic catastrophe.

It's also worth noting that BP, this corporate bastion of environmental responsibility, chose to save $500,000 on a $560 million rig. This is why regulation is necessary. Business cannot be relied upon to act responsibly without the threat of consequence.
I have no reliable data on the actual efficacy of remote devices. My suspicion is it would have made no difference and is intrinsically useless. Either the BOP was not closed because the men on the drillfloor died before they could try to close it, or because they did try and something inside - possibly the same condensates that blocked the bell coffer dam-probably mixed with boulders of cement- prevented it from closing. I think this was a failure of procedures. Human error. But we don't know yet. Certainly such a backup might become a requirement of the new rules we expect will come out of this, but whether it would have made any difference is doubtful. What I did not like was Hayward's aexpressed dependence on Transocean's BOP. The BOP is not your primary defence. It's your last line of defence. The well was drilled already. They knew the downhole pressures. They should never have needed to rely on the BOP at all.
But the larger story involves decades of dedication to creating doubt about climate science, to reinforce this bizarre meme that drilling is "safe," and generally promote hatred of "government" such that the regulators become the enemy.
You've lost me here. The only oil company personnel I ever meet are engineers. I never heard one in thirty years say anything of the sort.
I don't know exactly where "people who want structural change but still drive cars" fall on the list of threats to the environment, but it's probably somewhere near "burps."
Wrong. It's you and me and anbother 600 million people in Europe and North America and a lot more around the planet who are either like us, or want to be, in our casual acceptance of our right to burn more energy, personally and individually, than all our ancestors back to the Miocene.

Let's not blame the legislators or the oil companies. Let's place the blame squarely where it belongs. On us.


ETA- None of the above is a personal attack on you, TraneWreck. You just happen to be the one asking the questions.
 
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" You should not. So when you say you opposed drilling, what form did your opposition take? You sold your car, bought a pushbike, wrote letters to your representatives at local , state and federal level, then what? Or would my guess be right that what you actually did was grumble a bit to anyone who would listen. (Just like what the rest of us do).

Well, I worked very hard to elect a gentleman running against the "Drill Baby, Drill" folks. It turns out he was more worried about "bipartisanship" and "compromise" than living up to those environmental commitments.

But yes, in a democracy the way to change policy is to talk and participate in the electoral process. What else would you expect? Die on a cross for your cause?

I have no reliable data on the actual efficacy of remote devices. My suspicion is it would have made no difference and is intrinsically useless. Either the BOP was not closed because the men on the drillfloor died before they could try to close it, or because they did try and something inside - possibly the same condensates that blocked the bell coffer dam-probably mixed with boulders of cement- prevented it from closing. I think this was a failure of procedures. Human error. But we don't know yet. Certainly such a backup might become a requirement of the new rules we expect will come out of this, but whether it would have made any difference is doubtful. What I did not like was Hayward's aexpressed dependence on Transocean's BOP. The BOP is not your primary defence. It's your last line of defence. The well was drilled already. They knew the downhole pressures. They should never have needed to rely on the BOP at all.

I understand it was a terrible, unanticipated accident. Of course it "shouldn't" have happened. Chrenobyl shouldn't have happend, Valdez shouldn't have happened, the mining disasters shouldn't have happened.

That's just not the point. BP or Horizon could have prevented this disaster with a $500,000 device (I have seen no authority say otherwise--the WSJ and other publications have asserted that the switch lower down in the pipeline would be sufficient), but they spent millions of dollars lobbying Washington to eliminate that regulation.

You've lost me here. The only oil company personnel I ever meet are engineers. I never heard one in thirty years say anything of the sort.
Wrong. It's you and me and anbother 600 million people in Europe and North America and a lot more around the planet who are either like us, or want to be, in our casual acceptance of our right to burn more energy, personally and individually, than all our ancestors back to the Miocene.

I'm not making claims about employees of oil companies, I'm making claims about their behavior as corporations.

I don't want to waste my afternoon (and yours) tracing through the endless ties between deregulation promoting, anti-science groups and oil companies. Thus, I will just offer one clear example:

Freedomworks, the organization responsible for setting up all these teabagger rallies, is run by a guy named Dick Armey. Right wing leaders like Steve Forbes are on the board. They are financed by the usual right wing suspects including getting a significant portion of their funds from Exxon Mobile.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/the-corporate-lobbyists-b_b_186367.html

Thus, oil company gives money to right wing activists who try to organize the base to oppose any politicians that try to pass climate legislation, regulate corporations, or strengthen environmental regulation.

This happens perpetually. Both of the recent mine disasters occured at locations with hundreds of safety violations. The owner of the West Virginia mine lobbied was a teabagger who consistently lobbied the government to eliminate safety regulations.

Let's not blame the legislators or the oil companies. Let's place the blame squarely where it belongs. On us.

ETA- None of the above is a personal attack on you, TraneWreck. You just happen to be the one asking the questions.

No worries, the same goes in the other direction. I'm not going after you personally or really anyone you've worked with, and I appreciate the knowledge you've brought to this discussion.

But there is a huge political component to this disaster that made it very predictible in a statistical sense (if this hadn't happened, something would). We are very deeply suffering in this country from a series of disasters, starting with the economic collapse, that could have been avoided if our nation had a strong commitment to regulating industry.
 
Well, I worked very hard to elect a gentleman running against the "Drill Baby, Drill" folks. It turns out he was more worried about "bipartisanship" and "compromise" than living up to those environmental commitments.

But yes, in a democracy the way to change policy is to talk and participate in the electoral process. What else would you expect? Die on a cross for your cause?
My congratulations. (on your activism I mean). I have to say here that I never actually heard of "Drill Baby Drill" before. I'm not au fait with US politics these days, so I'll have to take your word for the comments you make about it here. I even had to google "teabagger". (Carpet baggers I know about).


I understand it was a terrible, unanticipated accident. Of course it "shouldn't" have happened. Chrenobyl shouldn't have happend, Valdez shouldn't have happened, the mining disasters shouldn't have happened.

That's just not the point. BP or Horizon could have prevented this disaster with a $500,000 device (I have seen no authority say otherwise--the WSJ and other publications have asserted that the switch lower down in the pipeline would be sufficient), but they spent millions of dollars lobbying Washington to eliminate that regulation.
Again, I just couldn't say. I'm not familiar with this bit of kit. First principles tell me it would have made no difference, but of course I don't know that.



I'm not making claims about employees of oil companies, I'm making claims about their behavior as corporations.

I don't want to waste my afternoon (and yours) tracing through the endless ties between deregulation promoting, anti-science groups and oil companies. Thus, I will just offer one clear example:

Freedomworks, the organization responsible for setting up all these teabagger rallies, is run by a guy named Dick Armey. Right wing leaders like Steve Forbes are on the board. They are financed by the usual right wing suspects including getting a significant portion of their funds from Exxon Mobile.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/the-corporate-lobbyists-b_b_186367.html

Thus, oil company gives money to right wing activists who try to organize the base to oppose any politicians that try to pass climate legislation, regulate corporations, or strengthen environmental regulation.
Oddly- I have worked with Huffco, the Huffington Bros. Oil company. (Long time ago). Like I said, apart from training in the US around 1980, I never worked there. You know your own politics. My experience of oil companies- including BP- is that they are severe sticklers for environmental responsibility, but maybe the guys in the field take it more seriously than those in the boardrooms. Right now I work onshore in Kazakhstan. If we spill so much as a litre of oil-based fluids on the ground someone wants a report on how, why and what we propose to stop a recurrence. I'm serious about this . A litre. And this is onshore.

But there is a huge political component to this disaster that made it very predictible in a statistical sense (if this hadn't happened, something would). We are very deeply suffering in this country from a series of disasters, starting with the economic collapse, that could have been avoided if our nation had a strong commitment to regulating industry.
Don't misunderstand me. I don't oppose regulation. I just ask that it be effective and that people don't confuse safety rules with safe practice.

Interesting you mention mining. Humphrey Davy (and others) produced the safety lamp about 1815. It has long been cited as the greatest safety innovation in mining history.In fact, virtually every major British mine explosion disaster happened after the introduction of safety lamps.
Why?
Simple. Before they were available, deeper and more methane rich seams were unreachable. What the lamp made possible was production from seams earlier miners would have avoided. So when a lamp burned through, or a hammer struck a pyrite crystal - kaboom.
In some ways a similar situation exists whenever another "safety" device is introduced. It doesn't automatically make work safer, it makes more unsafe work possible.
What makes for safety is teamwork , knowledge and safe thinking.

I don't think we can guarantee 100% that things like this won't happen. We can decide we don't want to take the chance- but that's a political decision, not an engineering one.
 
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