How can Dawkins redeem himself?

MLynn said:
Hmmm, key word here is, elevator - how can a woman escape from a man in a small, sealed space? There is a reason she felt threatened. I'm not taking a side in this matter, but I know what it's like to be assaulted and not be able to escape. Really.
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So wait, because he fired magic word bullets she was somehow in more danger than if he hadn't?

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make (at least keeping in mind we're on a skeptic forum where belief in magic word bullets tends to be frowned upon)

What in the physical reality changed after he fired magic word bullets than before he fired magic word bullets?
 
I noticed Clause on the PZ Meyerz comments

Someone has to say it

"If I see a female speaker on an air plane..."
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Which controversy was the RDF thing?
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There was a great forum called the Richard Dawkins Forum. He decided to close it, which is of course his right, though it didn't involve much caring about the fact that it was about the only place that questioners of religion who lived in highly religious societies could go. However, he did it in such a fashion (or allowed Josh Timonen to do it) in such a way that expressed needless callousness to the moderators of the forum. This has caused me to believe that however good a biologist he might be, his skill at interacting with people is a bit of a non-starter.

Now, I happen to agree with what Dawkins was saying in his letter that obliquely referred to Rebecca Watson. In my interpretation, it is about privilege. Since Rebecca Watson is all about complaining that men of her society have more privilege than she, it is important to note the massive amount of privilege she has compared to women in some Islamic cultures.

Whatever one else may think about Watson's claim to being made to feel uncomfortable in an elevator, it is as nothing compared to living in a culture where one can be imprisoned or killed as a punishment for having been raped.

Nor is she the only woman to whom this needs pointed out. When I lived in Tallahassee during the 1990s, the radical feminist women I knew (and I knew a lot) practically creamed their jeans over how wonderful they thought Islamic societies were to women.

He could, however, have made the point much clearer. He didn't, and I think this is due to social naivete rather than a lack of writing skills.
 
epepke, I've noticed that many public figures who host forums on their websites have little interest or control over them. In that respect, Dawkins is no different from Randi, R. Lee Ermey, Cecil Adams, or The Mythbusters.

Running a forum is a tremendous amount of work and it's usually delegated to people with the time and expertise required.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
epepke, I've noticed that many public figures who host forums on their websites have little interest or control over them. In that respect, Dawkins is no different from Randi, R. Lee Ermey, Cecil Adams, or The Mythbusters.

Running a forum is a tremendous amount of work and it's usually delegated to people with the time and expertise required.
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In the case of the RDF, it was a deliberate decision, though, and it was delegated to Josh Timonen, who was a really bad choice that nobody with social skills would have picked (IMO).

Maybe Randi doesn't interfere much, but the website is still up and continues not only to work, but to work pretty well. So even if he doesn't run it, he had enough social sense to pick people with enough social sense to make it work. Dawkins did not.
 
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RemieV said:
The issue that I'm attempting to get feedback on actually has little, if anything, to do with Rebecca. There's at least one thread on her point of view already.

The data I'm hoping to compile is on what you would want to see Dawkins do next. If you feel he did nothing wrong, then the answer is "Whatever he was doing before." If you think he was insensitive, what would you like to see happen? An apology? A discussion? That sort of thing...
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If I were Mr. Dawkins, I would probably not do very much at this stage. Getting drawn into a debate at a high profile meeting where certainly one 'side' of the argument has shown themselves to be highly irrational and inflammatory probably is something I would prefer to avoid. He doesn't debate creationists because they don't engage in 'fair' tactics, apparently nor do the Skepchicks.

What would I like to see him do? Be the voice of reason in all this, and put out the fire. However I would suggest the person really able to have that calming effect in this case is RW.
 
SezMe said:
Then the two of them can go back to being adults.
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Don't be ridiculous, that would require self-awareness and an understanding that entrenched positions tend to end up as one's own grave.
 
Let's see:

A man gets propositioned by a woman and complains on the internet.. he'd be told to quit whining.

Stretching the envelope further: A man gets propositioned by a gay man and complains to the internet. He'd still be told to quit whining, and probably accused of homophobia as well

But a woman gets propositioned (sort of as far as I can tell) ..we're supposed to react in horror.

This sounds a lot like demanding special treatment.
 
jayh said:
Let's see:

A man gets propositioned by a woman and complains on the internet.. he'd be told to quit whining.

Stretching the envelope further: A man gets propositioned by a gay man and complains to the internet. He'd still be told to quit whining, and probably accused of homophobia as well

But a woman gets propositioned (sort of as far as I can tell) ..we're supposed to react in horror.

This sounds a lot like demanding special treatment.
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There's another thread for that. How about addressing the OP - How can Dawkins redeem himself?
 
Dear Muslima;

There's a woman here in the Western world who seems to have gotten some people upset over an incident with a young man in an elevator. Afterwards, she made a vlog post that basically said, "um, guys--I find this particular behavior a little creepy and unsettling, given the specific circumstances. Try not to do this sort of thing, could you?"

I've decided to use the life experiences you've had as a Third-World Muslim woman as a weapon with which to deride and belittle this uppity Western woman. I think of the things you endure, Muslima--things like your head-to-toe body covering, your lack of freedom, the denial of your education, the rapes and the honor killings of your sisters and daughters, your forced marriage and your capricious, male-only divorce laws, the fact that your children are the sole property of your husband--as weapons I can use in an effort to silence another woman, whose complaint I find petty and unacceptable.

It should be obvious that because other women in the world have a more difficult time with equal rights and equal treatment, this spoiled Western woman should just shut up and deal. I'm sure you won't mind your pain and your own struggle for equality being used in this ironic manner. Not, of course, that I plan to ask you.


All the best,
Dick
 
slingblade said:
Dear Muslima;

There's a woman here in the Western world who seems to have gotten some people upset over an incident with a young man in an elevator. Afterwards, she made a vlog post that basically said, "um, guys--I find this particular behavior a little creepy and unsettling, given the specific circumstances. Try not to do this sort of thing, could you?"

I've decided to use the life experiences you've had as a Third-World Muslim woman as a weapon with which to deride and belittle this uppity Western woman. I think of the things you endure, Muslima--things like your head-to-toe body covering, your lack of freedom, the denial of your education, the rapes and the honor killings of your sisters and daughters, your forced marriage and your capricious, male-only divorce laws, the fact that your children are the sole property of your husband--as weapons I can use in an effort to silence another woman, whose complaint I find petty and unacceptable.

It should be obvious that because other women in the world have a more difficult time with equal rights and equal treatment, this spoiled Western woman should just shut up and deal. I'm sure you won't mind your pain and your own struggle for equality being used in this ironic manner. Not, of course, that I plan to ask you.


All the best,
Dick
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I suspect that wouldn't actually redeem him. ;)

Linda
 
@Sling - umm... Dawkins is supposed to redeem himself by... restating the stupid post he's already made on someone else's blog?
 
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