House Impeachment Inquiry

[Armitage72]

That "plurality" is just 26%. And the bad news for Democrats isn't just that a majority oppose impeachment, but that the numbers are moving against them, particularly among independents. That can't be explained by Fox News.

Also, the survey methodology:

Data was collected using both an Interactive Voice Response (IVR) system of landlines only (n=713) and an online panel provided by Amazon Turk (n=379).

Automated messages that mainly reached older people and what appears to be crowdsourced online data collection.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Listening to Nunes accuse the Dems of foisting CTs reminds me of when Scientology acquired an anti-cult website. It's just so painfully wrong.

I wonder if there is a mental health diagnosis for someone with severe projection syndrome?

He has been chronically called out for believing a number of CTs.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trump Tweeted

The Republican Party, and me, had a GREAT day yesterday with respect to the phony Impeachment Hoax, & yet, when I got home to the White House & checked out the news coverage on much of television, you would have no idea they were reporting on the same event. FAKE & CORRUPT NEWS!

I never in my wildest dreams thought my name would in any way be associated with the ugly word, Impeachment! The calls (Transcripts) were PERFECT, there was NOTHING said that was wrong. No pressure on Ukraine. Great corruption & dishonesty by Schiff on the other side!

Corrupt politician Adam Schiff’s lies are growing by the day. Keep fighting tough, Republicans, you are dealing with human scum who have taken Due Process and all of the Republican Party’s rights away from us during the most unfair hearings in American History.
But we are winning big, and they will soon be on our turf.

“The new House Resolution gives Adam Schiff (the most dishonest man in politics) the power unilaterally to release edited transcripts. Rule 10 gives Chairman Schiff absolutely no jurisdiction. Subpoenas issued as part of Dems’ Impeachment inquiry are illegal.” Sam Dewey @FoxNews

....”Nothing gives Schiff jurisdiction over Impeachment.”

Re the highlighted: He spent the first 2 years of his Presidency worried about being impeached because of "that Rusher thing" and obstructed the Mueller investigation all the while.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Schiff is presenting an excellent closing statement dismantling the GOP arguments.

One of the major issues with this thing is that it's not being treated like a court case. For all the whinging of the Republicans about how in a court hearsay wouldn't be allowed (it can be introduced under a lot of exceptions) they are more than willing to bring in their own hearsay, for example trying to claim that Lt Col Vindman was not trusted and was a leaker. But it doesn't stop there. They enter a lot of irrelevant things that in a trial would be objected to as irrelevant, they spend a lot of time testifying, which a lawyer can't do, and often that testimony is without an established factual basis. And finally, and the biggie, against all public belief, Lawyers in a court case are not allowed to lie, and yet the Republicans (especially Nunes and Jordan) tell so many blatant lies, even after being corrected, that if they were in a court room they would have been held in contempt and disbarred by now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Does this rise to the level of lying about getting a BJ? NO WHERE CLOSE.

Starr, of course, had to resign as a college president after actively covering up a series of rapes by college athletes.

There are so many of these old white guy* cover-ups, I've lost track. I didn't remember this.


*If you know of any women or non-white guys who've been found covering this kind of thing up let me know. I wouldn't be surprised to find a black Catholic priest in the pile but my description is not much changed if so.

 

[Bob001]

One of the major issues with this thing is that it's not being treated like a court case.
.....

What the Republicans don't admit (although they surely understand it) is that the impeachment process is not a trial. It is comparable to a grand jury proceeding, where only the prosecutor presents the evidence that would support an indictment. The defense doesn't generally get to challenge evidence or call its own witnesses. But in this proceeding the Repubs get as much time to question witnesses or make statements as the Democrats. If the House votes to impeach (comparable to returning an indictment), then the Senate conducts a trial and votes to remove or not.

 

[Segnosaur]

That "plurality" is just 26%. And the bad news for Democrats isn't just that a majority oppose impeachment, but that the numbers are moving against them, particularly among independents. That can't be explained by Fox News.

Keep a few things in mind:

- As others have posted, the survey involves mostly landlines, which does not reach a certain segment of the population. (Now, there are ways that a survey company can adjust the numbers to compensate, but that introduces other types of error.)

- The poll was taken between November 17 and 20s. That means that most people were probably contacted before Sondland gave his testimony.

- As with any poll there is a chance that this might be an outlier.

Now, I am not totally discounting the poll results... maybe it is evidence suggesting people have become immune or jaded over the issue. I would wait and see how additional polls react in the future.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I do have to say that the saddest thing I am seeing in all of this is that the Republicans believe that but jumping up and down and shouting "Look Shiny Squirrel, Democrats are bad" that they can lie directly to their base and protect a President that is out of control, and that at least 50% of Americans will believe the lies and admire the shiny squirrel all while the Republicans go back to screwing them over, and the really sad part of all that is that I actually think that they are right.

 

[Stacyhs]

One of the major issues with this thing is that it's not being treated like a court case. For all the whinging of the Republicans about how in a court hearsay wouldn't be allowed (it can be introduced under a lot of exceptions) they are more than willing to bring in their own hearsay, for example trying to claim that Lt Col Vindman was not trusted and was a leaker. But it doesn't stop there. They enter a lot of irrelevant things that in a trial would be objected to as irrelevant, they spend a lot of time testifying, which a lawyer can't do, and often that testimony is without an established factual basis. And finally, and the biggie, against all public belief, Lawyers in a court case are not allowed to lie, and yet the Republicans (especially Nunes and Jordan) tell so many blatant lies, even after being corrected, that if they were in a court room they would have been held in contempt and disbarred by now.

Excellent points. One thing that struck me is that the Dems spent most of their time asking the witnesses questions directly relevant to the issue whereas the Repubs spent much more time on their soapbox about issues not related to Ukraine. Much of their time was spent regurgitating old Trump supporter talking points like the "fake" Steele dossier and how the Dems have been out to 'get' Trump from the beginning. They spent time attempting to discredit the witnesses to little avail just as they did during the Mueller investigation.

 

[theprestige]

What the Republicans don't admit (although they surely understand it) is that the impeachment process is not a trial. It is comparable to a grand jury proceeding, where only the prosecutor presents the evidence that would support an indictment. The defense doesn't generally get to challenge evidence or call its own witnesses. But in this proceeding the Repubs get as much time to question witnesses or make statements as the Democrats. If the House votes to impeach (comparable to returning an indictment), then the Senate conducts a trial and votes to remove or not.

What Democrats don't understand (and therefore don't know to admit) is that the impeachment process is a House process, not a Democrats process. House Republicans have just as much standing to participate in the proceedings as their colleagues across the aisle. The House is in the process of building their case, prior to presenting it to the Senate. Obviously this process will be dominated by the Democrats, with the goal of arguing for removal from office. The Senate will consider that argument and vote on it.

But right now, this is a House process, and House Republicans are part of this process. In fact, this is appropriate time - the only time - for House Republicans to weigh in on the process. House Republicans aren't part of "the defense". They're part of the prosecution.

 

[Bob001]

.....
But right now, this is a House process, and House Republicans are part of this process. In fact, this is appropriate time - the only time - for House Republicans to weigh in on the process. House Republicans aren't part of "the defense". They're part of the prosecution.

They're part of the process; that's why they get as much time as the Democrats, even when they use it to defend Trump, insult witnesses and embrace crackpot conspiracy theories. They sure don't see themselves as part of the prosecution.

 

[Trebuchet]

Yeah. He might just feel compelled to obey that subpoena after all so he can set the story straight. Everyone, except Trump, thinks Rudi is a clown, not some evil genius or Machiavelli, just a clown.

You're wrong. Trump thinks that too.

Nepotism and influence peddling are rife throughout the political culture. Not illegal but unethical for sure.

Guess where Giuliani's son works!

The White House. He's in charge of arranging sports team visits to The Donald. For which he is paid more than $90,000.

 

[Craig4]

Keep a few things in mind:

- As others have posted, the survey involves mostly landlines, which does not reach a certain segment of the population. (Now, there are ways that a survey company can adjust the numbers to compensate, but that introduces other types of error.)

- The poll was taken between November 17 and 20s. That means that most people were probably contacted before Sondland gave his testimony.

- As with any poll there is a chance that this might be an outlier.

Now, I am not totally discounting the poll results... maybe it is evidence suggesting people have become immune or jaded over the issue. I would wait and see how additional polls react in the future.

I'd also note the "The Hill" is tainted by an association with Trump. Such a taint carries with it the assumption of dishonesty.

 

[CapelDodger]

What Democrats don't understand (and therefore don't know to admit) is that the impeachment process is a House process, not a Democrats process. House Republicans have just as much standing to participate in the proceedings as their colleagues across the aisle. The House is in the process of building their case, prior to presenting it to the Senate. Obviously this process will be dominated by the Democrats, with the goal of arguing for removal from office. The Senate will consider that argument and vote on it.

But right now, this is a House process, and House Republicans are part of this process. In fact, this is appropriate time - the only time - for House Republicans to weigh in on the process. House Republicans aren't part of "the defense". They're part of the prosecution.

Democrats are not dominating the process, they have as much time as the Republicans do to ask questions. The point is that the Republicans spend most of their time lying, diverting, traducing witnesses, and pushing debunked conspiracy theories while the Democrats ask relevant questions. Have you not noticed that? Have you not wondered why they do it?

 

[llwyd]

Well, the facts are clear. But facts are bit last season these days. Interesting times for the Western world.

 

[PhantomWolf]

But right now, this is a House process, and House Republicans are part of this process.

But they aren't being a part of the process, they are spending all their time arguing the process or pointing to irrelevancies rather than actually questioning the witnesses about the issues at hand.

In fact, this is appropriate time - the only time - for House Republicans to weigh in on the process.

And yet instead of helping to get to the truth, they are spending all their time muddying the waters, attacking the witnesses and Democrats, going on about totally irrelevant things, soapbox standing, and trying to distract from the facts that are coming out.

House Republicans aren't part of "the defense". They're part of the prosecution.

Yet they are acting like the defense, in fact they are going beyond that to act as a smoke screen to hide anything that comes out. They are in a mode of Defend the President at any cost and by any means, rather than being willing to get to the truth of what occurred.

 

[CapelDodger]

It's not working.
November National Poll: Support for Impeachment Declines

It is working, "it", of course, being the Democrats effort to expose Trump's scheme to pressure Ukraine into announcing investigations which Republicans can use to smear Biden with if and when he runs against Trump. Only those like you who think the process is an attempt to smear Mr. Trump care what effect it has on polls.

That said, is the "decline" greater than the margins of error in the poll? I'd look for myself but you'll surely have already done that and can save me the time.

 

[theprestige]

They're part of the process; that's why they get as much time as the Democrats, even when they use it to defend Trump, insult witnesses and embrace crackpot conspiracy theories. They sure don't see themselves as part of the prosecution.

And yet, by design, they are part of the prosecution. Nullifying a presidential election is a serious thing. The system is designed to fail if there isn't broad bipartisan support for it. Everybody knew going into this that the House was going to be divided on the issue. While the Democrats could use their majority to push it forward, there was never any question of the Republicans quietly playing along.

 

[Shalamar]

And yet, by design, they are part of the prosecution. Nullifying a presidential election is a serious thing. The system is designed to fail if there isn't broad bipartisan support for it. Everybody knew going into this that the House was going to be divided on the issue. While the Democrats could use their majority to push it forward, there was never any question of the Republicans quietly playing along.

Of course the Republicans aren't 'playing along' They seem to be fine with Trumps Extortion, corruption, obstruction, and witness tampering.

It's Not like he did anything REALLY wrong, like wearing a tan suit.

Republican Presidents are above the law.

 

[quadraginta]

You're wrong. Trump thinks that too.


Guess where Giuliani's son works!

The White House. He's in charge of arranging sports team visits to The Donald. For which he is paid more than $90,000.

Not a bad salary for calling in to McDonald's every couple of months and ordering a gross of Happy Meals.

All the leftovers go up to Trump's 'office'.

and all of the toys, of course.