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House Impeachment Inquiry

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Nixon isn't Trump.
The 1973 Congress isn't the 2019 Congress.
The 1973 SCOTUS isn't the 2019 SCOTUS.
And the 1973 political landscape sure as Shinola ain't the 2019 political landscape.

Cool story bro.

And you miss your own distinction in your post. The "Curtain" is already back on Trump. Hell it was never there.

What? That's not even close to true and actually flies in the face of reality. This has been the least transparent administration in the last 50 years. We haven't seen taxes, we haven't seen visitor logs, and a million other things. I have no idea where you got this from.

Nixon went down because what he did made it into the public consciousness. That's what took him down. Trump's supporters know what he did, they just don't care. That's a completely different problem to solve.

No idea why you keep bringing up Trump supporters. They wouldn't be the target audience fella. The target audience would be fence sitters, people that still have morals, independents, law and order libertarians, etc. We all, every one of us, knows that Trump supporters are going to continue to support him.

Have we got this out of the way now?

Nixon couldn't "shoot someone in the middle of Time Square and get away with it."

That makes a difference.

Trump has definitely been slippery so far, but not holding him responsible using every means necessary when, as you say, it's so blatant is just pathetic. It's weak, undisciplined, and certainly not what we as Americans should be standing for as a whole.
 
Listen I'm really not getting why I'm getting so much attitude here.

I don't think the Dems have anywhere near a strong enough hand to raise the pot right now, nothing more, nothing less.

If your goal is to appeal to the fence sitters and independents this "Agree with me about everything or be the enemy" cause purity seems like the least effective strategy.
 
No, they cannot, at least not easily. The word will already be out, and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
I have news for you. The word is already out. Trump has tweeted many of them.

Sure, if impeachment is debated in the house, his misdeeds are going to be recited ad nauseum and it may turn some voters. However, the Senate will be able to turn the debate back on the Democrats. You can expect a lot of debate about "witch hunts", "fake news", "perjured testimony" and the like. The Senate should be able to play it as a desperate attempt by Democrats to deny the voters their rights.

Public support comes from politicians in this case. The reason that it's low is that party leadership has been telling people it's too risky. When that changes, so will opinion.
Yes, that aspect might get the Democrats more votes but it will still depend on how smart the Republican Senators are.
 
Listen I'm really not getting why I'm getting so much attitude here.

You're getting equally as much as you give I guess.

I don't think the Dems have anywhere near a strong enough hand to raise the pot right now, nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps that's the problem. You keep stating your thoughts and opinions as if they're factually based. One of my points is that you don't know what the Dems hand actually is and there would be a lot more to come out if the impeachment hearings commence. Including requiring people to testify under oath. We've seen stories change when people are sworn in, and I think that would happen here as well.

If your goal is to appeal to the fence sitters and independents this "Agree with me about everything or be the enemy" cause purity seems like the least effective strategy.

Another strawman? Seriously, how many need to be built? There has to be a field of them somewhere by now.

No one "on our side" is saying that anymore than you are. No need to be the victim here.

ETA: I thought my previous post did a fairly good job at laying out the specifics of my argument without being condescending, but that's how the ball bounces I guess.
 
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You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.
Not exactly, no. I was providing the sort of narrative that I thought Democrats should use to make their case to the American people if indeed they think that Trump's actions have risen/fallen to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Personally, I think Trump's transgressions identified in the Special Counsel's report easily meet the suggestion by the Framers of "other high crimes and misdemeanors." (Wouldn't surprise me in the least if charges of treason and bribery could be justified in Trump's case too.) Specifically, Mueller spelled out perjury and obstruction of justice. Anyone looking for legal precedent for perjury and obstruction to be offenses grave enough to warrant impeachment need look no further that the Clinton impeachment.

It doesn't matter that the House was GOP-controlled at the time and it doesn't matter that you and I might agree that it was a highly partisan effort by the House. What matters is solely that perjury and obstruction were established as grave enough to warrant impeachment in the most recent example we have of a presidential impeachment. To my knowledge, there was no impeachment appeal or secondary investigation that resulted in Clinton's impeachment being ruled unConstitutional. Therefore, it stands as a precedent for legitimate impeachment, no matter how highly partisan it was.
 
You keep stating your thoughts and opinions as if they're factually based.

That must be easy to think when you assume your thoughts and opinions are facts and everybody else's aren't.

Not getting why you're acting like you're coming at this from an area of expertise or perspective greater than mine.

Or is this just another case of "You don't phrase your disagreements with me with groveling 'these are just my opinion' so I'm gonna pretend you're somehow trying to create reality with your words."

Of course everything I'm saying is "just my opinion" same as you. I don't have to point that out every other sentence (which I should not you don't do either.)

You haven't gone out of your way to present your statements as "just your opinion" either but I'm not claiming you're trying to pass off opinions as facts.
 
That must be easy to think when you assume your thoughts and opinions are facts and everybody else's aren't.

Not getting why you're acting like you're coming at this from an area of expertise or perspective greater than mine.

I'm not, and that has been my point. WE, you and I, don't have the expertise because we don't have all of the facts. What's a way to get more of the facts, and more information? You guessed it, impeachment proceedings!!!!

The difference between us is one of us is saying "We should do that, I'd like more information very much", while the other is saying "Whatever is in there, we shouldn't bother with it until we see how the next election shakes out". Which I think is weak, and cowardly.

Or is this just another case of "You don't phrase your disagreements with me with groveling 'these are just my opinion' so I'm gonna pretend you're somehow trying to create reality with your words."

I swear I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Of course everything I'm saying is "just my opinion" same as you. I don't have to point that out every other sentence (which I should not you don't do either.)

You haven't gone out of your way to present your statements as "just your opinion" either but I'm not claiming you're trying to pass off opinions as facts.

I use words like "I believe", and "in my opinion" littered throughout my posts. You post matter of factly. I'm not quibbling over semantics. You have stated this exact position, that the Dem's moving forward with impeachment would ensure Trump a victory, in more than one thread as a statement.

In any case, we'll move on. Given the information that could come to light, why, in your opinion of course, would you rather wait? If the Dem's do wait, Trump loses the election, and the Dem's take power, what would be the actions then? Go to the courts? What if he gets pardoned? Do we still get the information? I honestly don't know the answer to that. I want that transparency. I want all of the details. What if Trump wins anyway and the Dem's lose the House and don't get the Senate? Then they're literally ******. There's no path forward because they don't have power in the committees.
 
Not exactly, no.


Exactly, yes.
Still, the thing I keep coming back to – perhaps idealistically – is this: if there are grounds for impeachment, i.e., there is legitimate reason to believe that the Executive Branch is in any way compromised, then it is the Constitutional duty of Congress to impeach. Regardless of timing, polling, etc., the Constitution says that if x happens, y needs to follow.

It doesn't matter that the House was GOP-controlled at the time and it doesn't matter that you and I might agree that it was a highly partisan effort by the House.
What are you talking about? That's the only thing that matters at the presidential level. Impeachment will always be a partisan decision with voting mostly along party lines.
 
I'm not, and that has been my point. WE, you and I, don't have the expertise because we don't have all of the facts. What's a way to get more of the facts, and more information? You guessed it, impeachment proceedings!!!!

My understanding is that Congress can initiate investigations, with broad subpoena powers, at will. They can call witnesses, compel disclosures, and do a bunch of other stuff to get more facts and information, without necessarily having to do it in the form of impeachment proceedings.

So I don't currently buy the idea that they have to impeach to find out whether they have a basis for impeachment. I think they could probably open preliminary investigations to get the info they need, and then impeach (or not) once they have that info.

But I could be wrong on this, and would welcome correction from someone who knows better than I.
 
My understanding is that Congress can initiate investigations, with broad subpoena powers, at will. They can call witnesses, compel disclosures, and do a bunch of other stuff to get more facts and information, without necessarily having to do it in the form of impeachment proceedings.

It's my understanding that Trump has gone out of his way to get refuse or deny every subpoena, including those to his aides, lawyers, etc. So, then what?

So I don't currently buy the idea that they have to impeach to find out whether they have a basis for impeachment.

Good, I didn't say they HAD to do a damn thing. I said they would get a lot more information if they did as it becomes a legal procedure. Again, as I understand it.

I think they could probably open preliminary investigations to get the info they need, and then impeach (or not) once they have that info.

Is that not part of "impeachment proceedings"? Maybe I'm confused but I picked those words for a reason.

But I could be wrong on this, and would welcome correction from someone who knows better than I.

You and I both, sir. You and I both.
 
It's my understanding that Trump has gone out of his way to get refuse or deny every subpoena, including those to his aides, lawyers, etc. So, then what?
Then impeachment proceedings will run into the same brick wall anyway.

Good, I didn't say they HAD to do a damn thing. I said they would get a lot more information if they did as it becomes a legal procedure. Again, as I understand it.



Is that not part of "impeachment proceedings"? Maybe I'm confused but I picked those words for a reason.
My understanding is that all Congressional inquiries are legal procedures, and that an impeachment inquiry is on the same legal basis as any other.

Actually, looking at the Constitution, it seems that "impeachment", as such, is the part of the process where the House votes to make a case to the Senate that the President should be removed from office, and then proceeds to make that case.

The information used to support that case would be acquired by the House through its normal Congressional powers of investigation. That part of it, investigating and assembling information, is not strictly part of the impeachment itself.

You and I both, sir. You and I both.
Well, if you are saying that Congress should use its investigatory powers to build a case for impeachment, and calling that part of the "impeachment process", then I agree. Depending on context, I might make a distinction between the investigation and the impeachment itself, but I don't think it's important here.

Sorry for the churn.

Carry on!
 
What are you talking about?
Can't tell if we're talking past each other or you're being intentionally obtuse.

Article 2 lays out treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors as justification for impeachment (with conviction of same resulting in removal from office).

This language is purposefully vague, making it incumbent on Representatives favoring impeachment proceedings to make their case and put the question to a vote. You are correct that decisions to proceed with impeachment or not are perhaps universally a function of partisan politics, i.e., parties in opposition to the President make the political decision to proceed, those in the President's party make the decision not to.

It is precisely because of the political posturing that plays into these actions that I would want to see Democrats who favor impeachment to make their case as Constitutionally-grounded as possible, but the obvious question is whether there's a credible case to be made that the President might have engaged in treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors. The most recent impeachment we have to set precedent established perjury and obstruction beneath that umbrella, and those are the primary offenses Mueller worked so hard to not decide about in Trump's case.
 
I kind of think Pelosi is seeing things my way. She's going to resist until she can't and then give in just in time for Trump to have to campaign during the hearings.
 
I don't think the Dems have anywhere near a strong enough hand to raise the pot right now, nothing more, nothing less.

And an impeachment inquiry gives them more legal power to gather evidence. I don't know where you're expecting a "strong enough hand" to come from if they don't have a proper inquiry.
 
Sure, if impeachment is debated in the house, his misdeeds are going to be recited ad nauseum and it may turn some voters. However, the Senate will be able to turn the debate back on the Democrats. You can expect a lot of debate about "witch hunts", "fake news", "perjured testimony" and the like. The Senate should be able to play it as a desperate attempt by Democrats to deny the voters their rights.

The thing I dislike about this argument is the implied "so he should just be allowed to get away with it". When it becomes possible to avoid even being investigated for crimes simply because of the fear that the public might believe the target of the investigation when they say "no, you!", when "fake news" becomes a legitimate effective defence, that's when you know your political and legal systems are irreparably broken.
 
My understanding is that all Congressional inquiries are legal procedures, and that an impeachment inquiry is on the same legal basis as any other.

Actually, looking at the Constitution, it seems that "impeachment", as such, is the part of the process where the House votes to make a case to the Senate that the President should be removed from office, and then proceeds to make that case.

The information used to support that case would be acquired by the House through its normal Congressional powers of investigation. That part of it, investigating and assembling information, is not strictly part of the impeachment itself.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-powers-does-formal-impeachment-inquiry-give-house

Impeachment proceedings may also give the judiciary committee a stronger case for obtaining certain materials protected from disclosure by statute, like the grand jury materials from Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. Under Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, certain people—including the government attorney presenting the case—involved in a grand jury proceeding “must not disclose a matter occurring before the grand jury.” There are certain exceptions in the statute that would allow a judge to authorize disclosure for certain specified purposes, including “preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.”

As we wrote on Lawfare last month, there is some historical precedent for the House judiciary committee to obtain such information from the court—most notably in the context of the Watergate impeachment proceedings. The relevant court opinion relied largely on a theory of inherent judicial authority, rather than an exception in statute, to turn the Watergate “road map” over to the House judiciary committee.

But on April 5, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled that judges don’t have inherent authority to release grand jury materials and must instead rely solely on exceptions outlined in Rule 6(e). So if the committee wishes to access that information, Nadler will likely need to convince the judge overseeing the Mueller grand jury that release of materials to the committee is “preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding.” Bottom line: It is easier to argue that an open impeachment proceeding is akin to a “judicial proceeding” than it is to argue that any run-of-the-mill oversight activities are preliminary to a judicial proceeding.

There are also important questions about whether impeachment proceedings would produce compliance with congressional subpoenas—by either the executive branch or the courts.

The White House’s principal justification for its current stonewalling strategy for ongoing House investigations would not be relevant in the context of impeachment. On April 24, the president told reporters, “We’re fighting all of the subpoenas,” and Cipollone’s May 15 letter supplies various legal arguments in support of this approach. First, the letter relies heavily on the argument that there is no legitimate “legislative purpose” for the request. (Congress’s general investigative powers are derived from its power to legislate.) Whatever the merits of this argument, it would simply not be relevant in the context of impeachment proceedings, because the power to impeach is contained in an entirely separate and discrete section of the U.S. Constitution.

Second, the letter argues that even if a legitimate legislative purpose can be articulated, committees have limited authority to explore in detail any particular case of alleged wrongdoing, because Congress does not need such details in order to craft legislative fixes. Again, this would likewise not be relevant in the context of impeachment proceedings. The decision of whether to impeach requires the development of a detailed, backward-looking factual record of specific conduct by the president. While it is of course possible the White House could come up with different theories for stonewalling in the context of impeachment proceedings, these two arguments would fall away, leaving only arguments related to executive privilege to be made before the courts.

Beyond the substance, it’s unclear whether courts would consider and decide such cases more quickly in the context of impeachment proceedings than similar cases pursued under the Congress’s investigative authority. One district court judge expedited consideration of one of the current investigative impasses—the House oversight and reform committee’s quest for Trump’s financial and accounting records from Mazars—and ruled in favor of the committee. Trump has already appealed the case, and it is unclear how long this appeal and similar appeals will take. Moreover, the case does not involve any claims of executive privilege. Sorting out the scope of executive privilege is the most thorny and time-consuming issue in cases involving congressional requests for information from the executive branch.

We think it is entirely possible—probable even—that judges would recognize the primacy of impeachment proceedings against the president of the United States and expedite consideration of such cases. The case of U.S. v. Nixon—in which the Supreme Court ruled that the president had to turn over the infamous Oval Office recordings to the special prosecutor—was decided just over three months after the relevant grand jury subpoena had been issued. That was a criminal investigation, so the analogy is not entirely apt, but we think it reasonable to assume courts would take a similarly expeditious view in the context of a subpoena issued pursuant to impeachment proceedings. Of course, it is worth remembering that the Supreme Court has never decided a case concerning a congressional subpoena for information issued to an executive branch official where the president has asserted executive privilege. In theory, the Supreme Court could decide the issue is a political question and leave it to the other two branches to sort out in some other way.
 
The thing I dislike about this argument is the implied "so he should just be allowed to get away with it". When it becomes possible to avoid even being investigated for crimes simply because of the fear that the public might believe the target of the investigation when they say "no, you!", when "fake news" becomes a legitimate effective defence, that's when you know your political and legal systems are irreparably broken.
Like it or not, it all comes down to votes. If impeachment doesn't get the Dems more votes then it will not proceed.
 
Like it or not, it all comes down to votes. If impeachment doesn't get the Dems more votes then it will not proceed.

Dems need to push the fact that Trump is a seriously compromised individual heading up a seriously compromised administration, and that they are an ongoing threat to our national security, e.g. refusing to act to prevent foreign intrusion on our elections, and the shady stuff like the Saudi nuclear deal and lifting sanctions on Russian oligarchs, to name a few. That works for both a reason to impeach and a reason to burn the Party of Trump to the ground in 2020.
 
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