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House Impeachment Inquiry

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The Shrike said:
Correct, but the reason for their hesitancy is the same mistake Democrats always make: they're worried about polling, optics, etc. The Democrats tight-lipped at the moment on impeachment are only holding out because they're worried about re-election by this mythical centrist voter. They don't get that mobilizing their base (which actually does represent mainstream views on a lot of issues) is the key.

This is not what Republicans do to get stuff done. They stake out some space and then proclaim to the voters "this is where you should be if you love America!" All the voters shout "YEAH!" and stampede to that position. It's the reason they get their constituents to vote for stuff they don't actually want.

Imagine if Democrats came out with a full-throated "We're Democrats and we're the real patriots because x, y, and z. If you want to defeat the enemies of America, then join us in this fight, etc."

It was the mealy-mouthed, hand-wringing safety of seeking the middle that led to the Hillary Clinton campaign and, ultimately of course, to President Trump. Pussy-footing around on impeachment is straight out of the losing Democratic playbook.
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A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
 
dudalb said:
A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
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Is there anything the Dems can do that WON'T be considered, by you, to be doing Trump a huge favor? It would appear there are certain members of this forum that have made up their mind. There is nothing the Dems will do that's right.

Thank God, that's really helping the cause. :rolleyes: What a joke.
 
plague311 said:
Is there anything the Dems can do that WON'T be considered, by you, to be doing Trump a huge favor?
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Here's my list:
- Ignore Trump.
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

That last one is tricky, but if you can figure it out, you'll crush Trump in the general regardless of whether you're a (D) or an (R).

Dunno how that helps you get the nomination, though.

Probably your best bet is to run the standard primary "more extreme than the rest of them" primary playbook. And then when Trump tries to throw that back in your face:
- Ignore Trump
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.

I figure, a good chunk of the electorate won't remember what you said to win the primaries anyway. Another good chunk will understand that what you said was just political expedience. Another good chunk will start out suspicious but be brought around by:
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

Add it all up, and I think the total comes out to... a violent kick in the crotch for Donald Trump in 2020.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not everyone believes this GOP narrative, you know.
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Yes. Everything that isn't the Dem party line (not even the Dem Party line but basically the "Dems with nothing to lose" Party Line) is automatically the GOP Party line.

*Puts on my Maga Hat, NRA shirt, and... and... I have no idea what kind of pants Republicans wear*
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes. Everything that isn't the Dem party line (not even the Dem Party line but basically the "Dems with nothing to lose" Party Line) is automatically the GOP Party line.

*Puts on my Maga Hat, NRA shirt, and... and... I have no idea what kind of pants Republicans wear*
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Just because it's a GOP narrative doesn't mean others aren't repeating it. That's the point of injecting the narrative into public discourse, to influence how people view a thing.
 
I'm don't give a **** about "narratives." Narratives aren't a thing. Reality is the narrative, it doesn't have a separate distinct story being written on top of it.
 
theprestige said:
Here's my list:
- Ignore Trump.
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

That last one is tricky, but if you can figure it out, you'll crush Trump in the general regardless of whether you're a (D) or an (R).

Dunno how that helps you get the nomination, though.

Probably your best bet is to run the standard primary "more extreme than the rest of them" primary playbook. And then when Trump tries to throw that back in your face:
- Ignore Trump
- Dismiss attempts to make the campaign about Trump as a distraction.

I figure, a good chunk of the electorate won't remember what you said to win the primaries anyway. Another good chunk will understand that what you said was just political expedience. Another good chunk will start out suspicious but be brought around by:
- Run on the issues. What issues? Any issues. If you have a policy to propose, do that.
- Talk to Americans about their concerns. Not to Democrats. Not to Republicans. Americans.

Add it all up, and I think the total comes out to... a violent kick in the crotch for Donald Trump in 2020.
Click to expand...

...Nancy?
 
The Shrike said:
Two-way street, evidently.

I'm not predicting what House Dems will do, I'm suggesting the route they should take to pursue impeachment while minimizing backlash of partisanship.
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Then you have changed your argument. You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.

Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach. It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I think there is value in this, even though we know Republicans won't vote to convict.
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There is - for the Republicans. An impeachment trial in the Senate won't focus on Trump's misdeeds. It will instead focus on the sore losers who are trying all the tricks in the book to deny Trump the presidency. It will be a massive boost for Trump come 2020.
 
The Shrike said:
Correct, but the reason for their hesitancy is the same mistake Democrats always make: they're worried about polling, optics, etc. The Democrats tight-lipped at the moment on impeachment are only holding out because they're worried about re-election by this mythical centrist voter. They don't get that mobilizing their base (which actually does represent mainstream views on a lot of issues) is the key.

This is not what Republicans do to get stuff done. They stake out some space and then proclaim to the voters "this is where you should be if you love America!" All the voters shout "YEAH!" and stampede to that position. It's the reason they get their constituents to vote for stuff they don't actually want.

Imagine if Democrats came out with a full-throated "We're Democrats and we're the real patriots because x, y, and z. If you want to defeat the enemies of America, then join us in this fight, etc."

It was the mealy-mouthed, hand-wringing safety of seeking the middle that led to the Hillary Clinton campaign and, ultimately of course, to President Trump. Pussy-footing around on impeachment is straight out of the losing Democratic playbook.
Click to expand...

Listen you're preaching to the choir. The Dems being Milquetoast goobers who can't say water is wet without running it through a focus group is the very reason a madman talked his way into the White House.

The one thing Trump understands in that deformed misplaced third testicle that passes for his brain is there was a sizable number of Americans who thought "Insult me, lie to me, just don't be a pussy."

The problem, and I get a feeling this is where we are going to start to differ, is that I see a HUGE (YUGE even) difference between "Be more assertive" and "Just be more Democrat."

The Dems are on the majority of American's side on most things. Most Americans want abortions to be legal, most Americans want gay marriage to be legal, most Americans want paths for citizenship for immigrants, most Americans agree Trump needs to wear longer ties, etc. So you know they could just do those things but.... like with some balls instead of jumping into their unpopular pet projects.
 
dudalb said:
A variation on "Who Needs Moderates and Centrists"?
Click to expand...
Centrist in the US = center/right, ignoring huge segments of the population to the left of "almighty dollar, but slightly less of a jerk about it." This is why voters don't show up. This is why so many people said in 2016 "they're both bad" and either stayed home or voted for the weird guy.

dudalb said:
Keep that up, you are doing Trump a huge favor.
Click to expand...
How so? There's no way his cult isn't showing up at the polls no matter what. You can't mobilize his base, it's pre-mobilized and immune to reason.

dudalb said:
The Dems now have their own version of the Tea Party, sadly.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
 
theprestige said:
Grace, Reagan, Pelosi, or Drew?
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Pelosi.

I don't find your advise crazy, but as a whole the Dems currently in government can't ignore the President and his administration's continuing crimes and malfeasance. Even limiting it to just elections (a quick check of the thread title confirms that this line of discussion might be better suited for another thread), they can't completely ignore him, but they shouldn't get stuck chasing down every claim or outrage he throws out.

Running largely on the issues (like with the historic gains in the midterms) can work, especially on things like healthcare. It also would likely work with wages and the economy, because you can't actually lie to most people and tell them they are doing good. They know that they aren't doing good. It happens to them every day, and no matter how the GOP could crow about Wallstreet, they know that metric has almost nothing to do with how they are doing.

Some policies need a contrast too. Running on 'we won't break the law to waste money, burnout our employees, and be stupidly cruel to refugees' doesn't make sense without pointing out that this is currently what is happening.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm don't give a **** about "narratives." Narratives aren't a thing. Reality is the narrative, it doesn't have a separate distinct story being written on top of it.
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Oh my! Yes they are real things.

For example where's your evidence that impeachment proceedings will benefit Trump? Who are you repeating? Who benefits from injecting the narrative out there that impeachment will hurt the Democrats?

The news media have implied Nancy Pelosi believes that, yet she never directly said it. But even if she did, where did she get her information from? I believe she said at one point she believed Trump wanted the impeachment because he could use it against the Democrats. I think if you look a little closer you'll find Trump is afraid of impeachment proceedings. He spouts bravado of course, but that isn't truthful.
 
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psionl0 said:
Then you have changed your argument. You originally stated that impeachment was mandated by the constitution and that there is precedent for this.

Now you are only saying that congress is morally obliged to impeach. It turns out that the "precedent" was Bill Clinton. If you think that was anything other than base politics by a Republican dominated congress then you should have your stock broker examine the shares in the Brooklyn bridge that you bought.
Click to expand...
Everyone keeps repeating this false equivalence.

Ken Starr hunted and hunted for something to get on Clinton and finally got an unrelated thing to what he started with.

Trump and his family are corrupt, the Russians helped him get elected, and an investigation has turned up multiple attempts at obstructing the investigation.

There is no political equivalence here except the Republicans in the Senate are protecting Trump.
 
psionl0 said:
There is - for the Republicans. An impeachment trial in the Senate won't focus on Trump's misdeeds. It will instead focus on the sore losers who are trying all the tricks in the book to deny Trump the presidency. It will be a massive boost for Trump come 2020.
Click to expand...

And before that time, during the House investigation, the Democrats will plaster Trump's crimes over and over in the media.

What makes you think the false narrative (GOP'S) will be more influential in the long run?

And you know what? I believe it was Buttigieg who said, the GOP will do all that if the Democrats move to impeach and guess what? The GOP will do all that if the Democrats don't move to impeach. He's absolutely right.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And before that time, during the House investigation, the Democrats will plaster Trump's crimes over and over in the media.

What makes you think the false narrative (GOP'S) will be more influential in the long run?

And you know what? I believe it was Buttigieg who said, the GOP will do all that if the Democrats move to impeach and guess what? The GOP will do all that if the Democrats don't move to impeach. He's absolutely right.
Click to expand...

This is the reason why I don't belive there's any real risk to impeaching Trump. I do think there's a risk in not doing it, as that would piss of a lot of the voters who came out in 2018. People want Trump to be held accountable. The reason polling for impeachment is low (it's growing) is that the narrative of how dangerous it would be for Democrats is being fed by mainly centrists and Republicans.

I think the Democrats either impeach Trump, or they lose in 2020.
 
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