Homosexuality is a choice

[SnakeTongue]

To me, though, sexual attraction is so complex in humans that personally, (and I haven't seen any evidence of this, so it's just my own hypothesis), that all people are bi but more or less heterosexual or homosexual. Kind of like a scale. And even that scale can change for an individual depending on the people and the circumstances involved.

In this hypothetical model, what you define as "bisexual" and how you measure such scale. If people can change the sexual conduct from the social circumstances, this imply power of choice?

Circumstances completely change "homosexual" to "heterosexual". For example, let's take the "money shot" in porn. To be aroused by watching a man ejaculate sounds incredibly homoerotic. Now stick a woman in the scene, and BOOM - it's considered heterosexual. It the man was alone, (or with other men) it's considered homoerotic. But take the same circumstance, change the situation by one factor, and it's not homoerotic at all.

If the male "customers were willing to pay a higher price for actual than simulated sex.", the male customers, after consideration, freely decide to have "External male ejaculation in a pornographic film onto his parnter's body".

This imply the customers had power of choice and engaged in a sexual conduct of same-gender intercourse.

If the circumstance change the "homoerotic" behaviour of the male, how the female gender affect the change of such behaviour? How you relate the female affection with your "bisexual scale"?

money shot
External male ejaculation in a pornographic film onto his parnter's body. The term comes from earlier days of pornography in which sex acts were often simulated, and this showed that it was not. It was referred to as the money shot, because customers were willing to pay a higher price for actual than simulated sex.

It's a good thing we got the money shot unedited. Otherwise it looked simulated.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=money+shot

homoerotic [ˌhəʊməʊɪˈrɒtɪk]
adj
(Psychology) of, concerning, or arousing sexual desire for persons of one's own sex

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homoerotic

 

[SnakeTongue]

...enough dancing around, snaketongue....answer the damn question...
When did you decide to be heterosexual?

= "Queer" chill out?

queer
adj. queer·er, queer·est
1. Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
2. Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric.
3. Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.

Look posts above.

By the way, I decide to be "heterosexual" five days ago...

 

[SnakeTongue]

The biggest gay basher I ever knew in my life was a male prostitute as a teenage boy. He was and is to this day a doper and alcoholic who has destroyed every relationship he's ever been in. Theres not a single person who he has had a relationship with that didn't eventually regret it.

I think he's a bi man in denial. I hope I never run into him again.

If you come across him, offer him directions, not misdirections. Everyone deserve to choose the right path, for life or for death:

http://www.narth.com/docs/coll-harren.html

Tell him the Hermes god sing from the Olympus with his lyre:

"Follow straight, keep ahead".

 

[Thunder]

By the way, I decide to be "heterosexual" five days ago...

how was your life as a homosexual before that?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Snaketongue, nobody is arguing that engaging in sexual behavior is never a choice. They are arguing, however, that most adults have within them a certain desire for one gender and not the other, and that these desires are not chosen.

That most adults have within? Of what?

Them a certain desire for one gender (male or female) and not the other (female or male).

So you affirm that most adults have a "sexual appetite" for gender (X) and not for gender (Y), and such "sexual appetite" cannot be chosen.

So the "sexual appetite" is not a variable.

How "bisexuality" fit in your equation if "sexual appetite" cannot change from gender X to gender Y?

de·sire (d-zr)
tr.v. de·sired, de·sir·ing, de·sires
1. To wish or long for; want.
2. To express a wish for; request.
n.
1. A wish or longing.
2. A request or petition.
3. The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.
4. Sexual appetite; passion.

li·bi·do (l-bd, -b-)
n. pl. li·bi·dos
1. The psychic and emotional energy associated with instinctual biological drives.
2. Sexual desire.
3. Manifestation of the sexual drive.

I'm going to phrase this as clearly as I possibly can: You have described yourself as "an adult male which enjoy engage in sexual intercourse with a adult female." (1) Why do you enjoy intercourse with females? (2) Is this something you have chosen to desire, or is it not? (3) If it is, then at what age did you choose to desire this? Is it possible for you to desire sex with men?

1. Because it is like solve a long equation where the results are endless. It is feel that you are part of a dual system of self-duplication over a three dimensional sphere. If reproduction do not happens, energy remains stored in a dual system for the next cycle of self-duplication.
2. Yes, it is.
3. Observing the real circumstances of my social environment over a three dimension sphere, I think... Never.

By the way, I hope Atlas keep holding well the sphere! Sometimes he shake and the system over the sphere enters in emergency mode. In such mode, the system will not grant priority for what cannot help the self-duplication system.

(1) Do you believe that homosexual men have chosen to desire relations with other men? (2) If you believe they have chosen this, what makes you believe that is the case?

1. Yes, I accept as true.
2. "Sexual appetite": You are what you eat and what you do.

Q: If hormone problems can lower a woman's libido, would they also increase it significantly? My Dr. thinks that I may have a hormonal imbalance. Recently I have been experiencing an overwhelming sexual appetite. I am constantly excited and can thinking of nothing other than sex.

A: It used to be thought that elevated testosterone levels could cause increased sex drive in women. In my experience, this is most unusual -- over the past 20 years I have seen hundreds of women with high testosterone and very few complain of increased sex drive and some complain of a decrease -- though the decrease is not caused by testosterone.

An increase in libido is not necessarily something wrong. However if it is uncomfortable or leads to inappropriate choice of partners or other behavior which might be harmful, then treatment should be considered. This can be counseling from a psychologist or psychiatrist specializing in sexual problems or antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil and others which often decrease desire.

As to which is right for you, it is best to consult a knowledgeable health professional.

Hope this is helpful.

Sincerely,

Geoffrey Redmond, MD

be·lieve (b-lv)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
v.tr.
1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.
v.intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
4. To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Q: If hormone problems can lower a woman's libido, would they also increase it significantly? My Dr. thinks that I may have a hormonal imbalance. Recently I have been experiencing an overwhelming sexual appetite. I am constantly excited and can thinking of nothing other than sex.

A: It used to be thought that elevated testosterone levels could cause increased sex drive in women. In my experience, this is most unusual -- over the past 20 years I have seen hundreds of women with high testosterone and very few complain of increased sex drive and some complain of a decrease -- though the decrease is not caused by testosterone.
An increase in libido is not necessarily something wrong. However if it is uncomfortable or leads to inappropriate choice of partners or other behavior which might be harmful, then treatment should be considered. This can be counseling from a psychologist or psychiatrist specializing in sexual problems or antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil and others which often decrease desire.

As to which is right for you, it is best to consult a knowledgeable health professional.

Hope this is helpful.

Sincerely,

Geoffrey Redmond, MD

Oh no! I post a reference with a "female gender"! I hope everyone in the JREF forum believe that the woman in the article is "lesbian"!

= Happy "lesbian" woman in the above quote.

 

[JFrankA]

Hang on a sec.
Above is mentioned by Mirrorglass: But just because something hasn't been proven doesn't automatically mean that the reverse is true.

Is it necessarily so that "choosing homosexuality" also means "choosing heterosexuality"? It could be that people who claim that "homosexuality is a choice" think that heterosexuality is the default position, so that homosexuals choose to diverge from the default.

It's possible, but I don't think there is a "default" position. Sorry, I was merely expressing my viewpoint, not stating something as fact.

In this hypothetical model, what you define as "bisexual" and how you measure such scale. If people can change the sexual conduct from the social circumstances, this imply power of choice?

Bisexual - attracted to both genders. And it's not a scale you can measure, just more attracted to one gender basically, which can change depending on the circumstances, the people and the mood one is in.

My apologies. I'm trying to give examples of how I see this, and I am failing miserably. I still say one doesn't "choose" their sexual preference just as one doesn't choose what their sexual fetish is or whether they like bananas or if the color red is ugly or not. But under certain circumstances one may not enjoy their sexual fetish, or will eat a banana and like it, or paint some room red.

Now there also maybe some people who is heterosexual and likes to have a man involved in sex, such as a threesome, but not alone, just like someone might like bananas only with ice cream, or even maybe not liking the color red, but loving the color burgundy.

We are talking about basic likes and dislikes. To me, arguing if chooses homosexuality is like arguing if someone dislike celery.

...I hope I didn't make it more confusing...

 

[I Am The Scum]

So you affirm that most adults have a "sexual appetite" for gender (X) and not for gender (Y), and such "sexual appetite" cannot be chosen.

So the "sexual appetite" is not a variable.

How badly did you fail logic class?

Are you saying that because something is not chosen, it is not variable? How does that follow? I didn't choose the temperature outside, and yet it's different from what it was last night.

How "bisexuality" fit in your equation if "sexual appetite" cannot change from gender X to gender Y?

Again I must reiterate that I never stated that a person's sexual desires (or any desires, for that matter) cannot be changed.

Whereas most people strongly favor one gender over another romantically or sexually, bisexuals prefer both genders more or less equally. I can't imagine why you need someone else to explain this for you.

Then we have this interesting section. I asked you if your heterosexuality - your desire to be with a female - is a choice. You say, "Yes, it is." I then ask when you chose to have this desire. Your response: "Never." So you chose it, but you never chose it. That makes tons of sense!

This is a blatant contradiction. If you have to resort to irrationality to prove your case, then don't be upset when nobody agrees with you.

1. Yes, I accept as true.
2. "Sexual appetite": You are what you eat and what you do.

You're not explaining yourself. You believe that homosexuals choose to desire their own gender over the opposite gender. Please explain to me why you think this is true. Explain to me how you have drawn this conclusion.

 

[I Am The Scum]

how was your life as a homosexual before that?

Thunder, he's trying to equivocate. To him, "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" are strictly practices, not desires. This is, of course, an absurd notion. Whereas you would consider yourself a heterosexual right now, you are (presumably) not having sex at the moment, so according to SnakeTongue, that cannot possibly be true. You're just kinda neutral, for the time being.

This is why I have taken great lengths to define the "straight" and "gay" terms as desires, because then his errors in reasoning become much more obvious.

 

[SnakeTongue]

how was your life as a homosexual before that?

What make you think that "homosexual" lifestyle is the reverse of "heterosexual" lifestyle?

It is "bisexuality" something between your definition?

By the way, my sexual choices related to same gender was like from a priest in celibacy.

Definition of CELIBACY

1
: the state of not being married
2
a : abstention from sexual intercourse
b : abstention by vow from marriage

 

[SnakeTongue]

Then we have this interesting section. I asked you if your heterosexuality - your desire to be with a female - is a choice. You say, "Yes, it is." I then ask when you chose to have this desire. Your response: "Never." So you chose it, but you never chose it. That makes tons of sense!

This is a blatant contradiction. If you have to resort to irrationality to prove your case, then don't be upset when nobody agrees with you.

I am sorry, I made a mistake with the numbers. I will reproduce again:

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum
I'm going to phrase this as clearly as I possibly can: You have described yourself as "an adult male which enjoy engage in sexual intercourse with a adult female." (1) Why do you enjoy intercourse with females? (2) Is this something you have chosen to desire, or is it not? (3) If it is, then at what age did you choose to desire this? (4) Is it possible for you to desire sex with men?

1. Because it is like solve a long equation where the results are endless. It is feel that you are part of a dual system of self-duplication over a three dimensional sphere. If reproduction do not happens, energy remains stored in a dual system for the next cycle of self-duplication.
2. Yes, it is.
3. All ages.
4. Observing the real circumstances of my social environment over a three dimension sphere, I think... Never.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Whereas you would consider yourself a heterosexual right now, you are (presumably) not having sex at the moment, so according to SnakeTongue, that cannot possibly be true. You're just kinda neutral, for the time being.

Would you provide the evidence that prove that I stated that: if you consider yourself a "heterosexual" in this moment, this cannot be possible true?

Neutral in reference to which point?

This is why I have taken great lengths to define the "straight" and "gay" terms as desires, because then his errors in reasoning become much more obvious.

Where did you even defined such terms? I read this whole thread and I cannot remember. Could you help me find where you made such "great lengths to define the "straight" and "gay" terms as desires"?

 

[EGarrett]

Would you explain how a "conditioned preference" do not relate to "choice"?

Look at 1a of your own definition.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Are you saying that because something is not chosen, it is not variable? How does that follow? I didn't choose the temperature outside, and yet it's different from what it was last night.

No, I am not.

I will try again:

(...) most adults have within them a certain desire for one gender and not the other, and that these desires are not chosen.

From this I understand:

1. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for a adult male: heterosexuality

2. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for an adult female: homosexuality

3. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for an adult female and/or male: bisexuality.

If this is possible, why is necessary the definition of "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality in the definition 1 and 2, if the definition 3 contain both?

It is possible to have absence of "sexual appetite"? If yes, how this apply to the definition 3?

If a adult male choose to have sexual intercourse with adult males during a period of time (period A) and choose to have sexual intercourse with adult females in another period of time (period B), to which group of the definitions above this adult male belong?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Look at 1a of your own definition.

In which post?

 

[Shrike]

It's possible, but I don't think there is a "default" position. Sorry, I was merely expressing my viewpoint, not stating something as fact.

Sorry if I came across rude or terse. That was not my intention. I was merely playing devil's advocate of a sort. As in, saying homosexuality is a choice does not automatically make people like ST think that heterosexuality is also a choice.
I also do not think that there is a "default" position (hur, hur, position ), but maybe people like ST do. I have to say that he is getting harder to follow in his last posts. His evasions are getting very elaborate.

 

[I Am The Scum]

3. All ages.

All ages? Really? So when you were an infant, you were consciously choosing (not merely feeling) that sexual intercourse with a female was an excellent idea. How did you arrive at this conclusion, and at such a young age?

Would you provide the evidence that prove that I stated that: if you consider yourself a "heterosexual" in this moment, this cannot be possible true?

You do so quite blatantly in this post later on:

If a adult male choose to have sexual intercourse with adult males during a period of time (period A) and choose to have sexual intercourse with adult females in another period of time (period B), to which group of the definitions above this adult male belong?

If sexual orientation is about the desire and not the act, then why do you keep framing it in terms of whether or not the act is occurring?

Where did you even defined such terms? I read this whole thread and I cannot remember. Could you help me find where you made such "great lengths to define the "straight" and "gay" terms as desires"?

Snaketongue, nobody is arguing that engaging in sexual behavior is never a choice. They are arguing, however, that most adults have within them a certain desire for one gender and not the other, and that these desires are not chosen.

In the above section, I make it very clear that the conversation is not about the act of sex and/or romance, but the desire for it.

From this I understand:

1. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for a adult male: heterosexuality

2. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for an adult female: homosexuality

3. An adult male have "sexual appetite" for an adult female and/or male: bisexuality.

If this is possible, why is necessary the definition of "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality in the definition 1 and 2, if the definition 3 contain both?

It is possible to have absence of "sexual appetite"? If yes, how this apply to the definition 3?

You really don't understand. First of all, #1 and #2 are backwards. #3 is fine. Your criticism of #3 makes absolutely no sense. Finally, your last paragraph is fine. Some people desire neither men nor women. They would be defined as celibate.

When I get home, I'll draw you a Venn diagram with crayons, so you will understand better. I can't imagine how someone can be so horribly confused by such a simple concept.

 

[JFrankA]

Sorry if I came across rude or terse. That was not my intention. I was merely playing devil's advocate of a sort. As in, saying homosexuality is a choice does not automatically make people like ST think that heterosexuality is also a choice.
I also do not think that there is a "default" position (hur, hur, position ), but maybe people like ST do. I have to say that he is getting harder to follow in his last posts. His evasions are getting very elaborate.

Shrike, you have nothing to apologize for. I understood the position you were coming from. And I do appreciate the approach, keeps me thinking and questioning myself.

I do feel, though, I am not explaining my thoughts on the matter correctly. I will keep trying though.

 

[JFrankA]

What make you think that "homosexual" lifestyle is the reverse of "heterosexual" lifestyle?

It is "bisexuality" something between your definition?

By the way, my sexual choices related to same gender was like from a priest in celibacy.

Celibacy has nothing to do with being attracted to a gender or not. Celibacy is a choice not to have sex. That does not mean that the celibate person is not attracted to someone. Quite a difference.

That's like saying someone who is fasting (for whatever reason) doesn't eat because they don't desire food. It's not that they have an appetite, nor that they don't want food, it's just a conscious choice not eat. The desire is still there.

It's the same thing with sexual attraction. A person may be attracted to the same gender but resists the urge for social reasons. That doesn't mean that person has chosen to be attracted to the opposite gender, it means that person is denying what she/he basically desires.

 

[SnakeTongue]

All ages? Really? So when you were an infant, you were consciously choosing (not merely feeling) that sexual intercourse with a female was an excellent idea. How did you arrive at this conclusion, and at such a young age?

I cannot remember.

If sexual orientation is about the desire and not the act, then why do you keep framing it in terms of whether or not the act is occurring?

In the above section, I make it very clear that the conversation is not about the act of sex and/or romance, but the desire for it.

So where does sex desire come in? If sexual orientation has nothing to do with the action, what stops paedophiles from claiming equality with homosexuals? If they never get physical, what does it matter if they fall in love with a child?

Your criticism of #3 makes absolutely no sense.

I will try again:

Can you help me understand B and C?

Heterosexual desire = XT
Homosexual desire = XY
Bisexual desire = XZ

A. female gender (X) desire to female gender during his first 20 years of a person's life: homosexual (Y).
B. female gender (X) desire to male gender during his 21-25 years of a person's life: bisexual or reversion to heterosexual (Z or T)?
C. female gender (X) desire to female gender during his 25-45 years of a person's life: bisexual or reversion to homosexual (Y or Z)?

A. XY
B. XZ or XT?
C. XY or XZ?

Finally, your last paragraph is fine. Some people desire neither men nor women. They would be defined as celibate.

Yes, indeed, some people prefer (power of choice for) sexual abstinence (sexual behaviour).

When I get home, I'll draw you a Venn diagram with crayons, so you will understand better. I can't imagine how someone can be so horribly confused by such a simple concept.

Interesting...