Homosexuality is a choice

[kerikiwi]

Likewise, surely there are some people (most likely a very small percentage of g/l's) that actually did make a choice (not counting bisexuals).

I am not convinced that is 'surely' true.
Of course you could argue that homosexuals have made a choice to be heterosexual, but they haven't chosen their sexuality, they have only chosen to deny it.

 

[PhantomWolf]

See there is a claim that requires a lot of proof.

one I could find on quick notice Though I could also point to the likes of Anne Heche who went from Hetro to Gay to Hetro again.

Do you think sexuality is a choice?
If so, what did you choose, and why?

No and yes. I think sexuality is a very complex thing, and a small part of it is choice, though the vast majority of it is a function of our genes and how our environment manipulates our genes turning them off or on via our life experiences (hence the choice part). This would result in the possibility of having "gay genes" in your DNA, but not actually having them activated because of the environment and experience of the person. It could then lead to later experiences activating them, or deactivating them in a person with them previously active.

As SezMe says, this makes it very hard to change, but not impossible, and it has been shown that some people can and do change their sexuality throughout their lives. The trouble is that we like to label people, if you are attracted to the same sex, you are gay, if you then decide that you like the other sex too, or find an attraction to them, you're bi, etc, however is reality it's a case of our sexuality fluctuating as we grow and we respond to our enviroment.

This means that if you make the choice to immerse yourself in a different sexuality, then over time that environment may write a change the genes that are on and off in your DNA, modifying the way your body responds to that environment. The question is, does everyone have the same genes, or do some have only "gay" and some "straight" genes meaning that they are harder to manipulate? That I can't answer, though I actually suspect we all have one set and how they are switched on or off determine what our sexuality is at that point in out lives rather than some people having "gay" ones.

 

[PhantomWolf]

yep studies point into that direction rather than genetic.

Actually the studies I have seen using Identical Twins seems to be pointing towards genes being turned on and off by chemical markers attached to the DNA strands. Now whether that is caused by hormonal levels in the womb, :shrug: (we really need a shrug emoticon)

 

[Soapy Sam]

My question for men who think it's a choice is this: "Are you saying that you could choose to achieve and maintain an erection and have sex to orgasm with another man?"

If the answer is "No", then you're saying homosexuality is not a choice.

It seems to me that the answer to this must be "yes".
I prefer coffee to tea, but drink tea with some satisfaction if coffee is not available.
Many men have practised homosexual behaviour on ships, in jail , in boarding schools and in other situations where women were simply unavailable. Some continue in a normal context, many don't. It's likely some of these men were "innately" homosexual, but suppressed it in normal society, but I suspect a lot of them simply go along with it because sex is fun- and while it may be more fun with a woman, a willing male will do. Some of course, are unwillingly coerced- but how bad can it be, for instance, to have another guy masturbate you? I never had the experience, but it doesn't sound so frightful. Guys have a lot of practice, after all.

I think it's a complex business- some males and females seem to be born with "the wrong sex of brain"- and may always feel primarily attracted to their own sex. But it's probable a lot of gay and lesbian preferences develop as a result of experience, just like any other preferences.

Human behaviour is a mix of genes and environment with feedback loops at every level. Whatever floats your boat, as long as nobody gets hurt.

 

[Darat]

The concept of "heterosexual" and "homosexual" as describing what people are is a social construct not some natural law.

 

[Soapy Sam]

True, but in a thread like this it's just shorthand.
A man may be gay and an angler, but we tend to lump guys who wear PVC thigh boots together for convenience.

 

[mediocrity511]

My father grew up in a strongly Catholic family, he married and had three kids and then about 20 years later the marriage broke down and he came out as gay. From what he's said he genuinely didn't realise he way gay, he used to think that he got incredibly jelous of attractive guys, but has since realised that those feelings were sexual attraction. Obviously because of his upbringing, he didn't even consider that he would be homosexual because it was wrong and he was a good Catholic man!
When he did realise he fought against it for a long time and it caused him great unhappiness. It also caused us a lot of unhappiness as a family because he became depressed, angry and agressive. Throughout this period he was talking to the priest about his problems in confession and trying to basically find his way to straightness again.
Nowadays he has accepted his sexuality and is a whole lot happier and we all have a better relationship with him too.
I know anecdote doesn't equal evidence, but watching someone trying to choose not to be homosexual makes me think that it really isn't a choice and that those who believe that don't quite realise how cruel they are being when they suggest someone simply stops being gay.

 

[alex04]

heh, I got shouted down a few months ago at my partners church youth group over this issue.

I was surprised it even came up (should've known better). I thought I'd been sent back to the 18th century..


The point I was trying to get across; unless you can demonstrate a consistent 'cause of homosexuality', then how can you validate this view (homosexuality being a choice)?

For every example of a 'cause' (e.g. social environment etc,), I was able to give a counter.

Nevertheless, "I was wrong", they were right, assertion won the day

 

[Soapy Sam]

My father grew up in a strongly Catholic family,...

I wonder what the priest told him?

Many people of all sexual orientations remain chaste all their lives. It can certainly be done. Harder for some than others, like anything else.

 

[Soapy Sam]

For every example of a 'cause' (e.g. social environment etc,), I was able to give a counter.

Let's have them then.

 

[Skwinty]

Where does this leave people (male and female) who are heterosexual but enjoy anal sex?
Are these people born like that or do they make a choice?
What pidgeon hole do they fit into?
Gay?
Heterosexual with added benefits?
Perverts?
"Normal"?

Stereotypes are not good.

 

[alex04]

Let's have them then.

Well as I said, this was a few months ago so I didn't come prepared today with a comprehensive list. Sorry. Mainly I remember being shouted at. Not sure if you're interrogating me, or just curious.

Off the top of my head, living environment - e.g. how your parents bring you up/nurturing), uh.. media that people are exposed to (e.g. television etc).

Having known a number of gay people - actually almost all the gay people I've known have had siblings.

My responses, largely, were - if it's a choice, and these factors had such an effect, why were their siblings (who were exposed to the same environment) not affected?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Just curious. Good arguments are always useful to have.

There is some evidence (statistical and weak) that later born brothers are more apt to be gay- the suggested mechanism being that there's a battle between maternal and paternal genes during a pregnancy and that the mother gets better at it with experience. I presume this would be true only if it was the same father.

let's face it, we do stuff in part because it's how we are wired , in part because we are influenced by our environment (which is mostly other people) and in part because we are coerced. There is rarely a simple answer to a complex question. (eg, very few people are innately sexually attracted to grand pianos. Is this genetic or learned?)

 

[alex04]

<snip>
There is some evidence (statistical and weak) that later born brothers are more apt to be gay- the suggested mechanism being that there's a battle between maternal and paternal genes during a pregnancy and that the mother gets better at it with experience. I presume this would be true only if it was the same father.

With regards to the people I've known to be gay, it seems to be a mixed bag. My friend's gay brother (that i mentioned earlier) was the youngest btw.

In all honesty, gay or straight is irrelevant to me. I just got irritated at the time as I thought gay people were not fairly represented in the discussion.

 

[Bill Thompson]

why do some folks still think that being gay or lesbian is a choice?
...

Larry King asked some people on his show if they chose to be straight (they were protesting the movie "Broke Back Mountain") and they hemmed and hawed.

I think that is a good question.

 

[alex04]

Larry King asked some people on his show if they chose to be straight (they were protesting the movie "Broke Back Mountain") and they hemmed and hawed.

I think that is a good question.

I did mention that. They still asserted that it was a choice.


I'm glad I wasn't around for the Kent Hovind dvds..

 

[Thunder]

Where does this leave people (male and female) who

many states have a law for folks like this.

they are called "Sodomites".

 

[Darat]

True, but in a thread like this it's just shorthand.
A man may be gay and an angler, but we tend to lump guys who wear PVC thigh boots together for convenience.

It is not about grouping people together it is exposing a fundamental flaw in the whole idea behind the concept of the opening post, the opening post arises only if we accept that when we label someone "homosexual" or "heterosexual" we are labelling something that is objective.

 

[Rufo]

You can choose what to do. You can't choose what to want.

I can only assume that those who call sexual orientation a choice are referring to action or inaction; acting on your wishes, or refusing to take action to change them. Yes, those are choices. What you want, however, is not.

 

[Piggy]

It seems to me that the answer to this must be "yes".

I think that speaks to the plasticity of sexual identity.

But I actually wasn't positing that argument as addressing the issue itself.

It's a rhetorical device I use sometimes (when it's safe) when I hear a man arguing that homosexuality is a choice.

When you ask that, it puts him in an awkward position.

He can say "no" and contradict his own position. Or he can say "yes" (as you have thoughtfully described in your post) and support his own position, but in doing so admit that he himself could choose to have homosexual sex, which so far I've never heard a "choice" advocate admit. (Although it's not a conversation I've had very often, so there's a very small sample here.)