Homoeopathy: Help explain it to our credulous parliamentarians!
- Thread starter volatile
- Start date
-
- Tags
- homeopathy nhs uk healthcare
christie malry
Scholar
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 110
Back OT for a moment - this is a great idea if I may say so. I'm glad that my otherwise crapulent MP is not on the list. Did anyone notice that Diane 'daily politics' Abbot was on there? Is there some way of putting her on the spot on air do you think? Does Andrew Neil do a Q&A or an 'emails from our listeners' bit? I stopped watching it ages ago because it was a horrible horrible love-in but if anyone on here still forces their way through it, could be a good way of getting a bit of publicity, no?
Asolepius
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,150
Again, this is a bit off topic, but I can't quite see your point. What you say is a truism, but I find there are degrees of security. While I felt secure when I relied on faith, I now feel orders of magnitude more secure from reliance on evidence. Happy to debate this with you on another thread. Here, we need to focus on certain practicalities.
Response from MP
My MP has replied to my email and has requested a little further reading - if anyone has any suggestions (also examples of deaths caused by ignoring conventional medicine) then please do contribute.
Here is my original email - I have removed both of our names since I have not asked his permission to publish his response:
Thursday 26 July 2007
Dear XXXXX XXXXXX,
I come from a Socialist background but since moving to XXXXXXXXX I have
been proud to vote for you for the past 8 years.
However, it has been brought to my attention that you have signed an
Early Day Motion to protest the closing of the Royal Homoeopathic
Hospital.
I can only assume you are not fully aware of what homoeopathy is.
If this is the case then a 2 page explanation is here:
w w w.senseaboutscience.org.uk/pdf/SenseAboutHomeopathy.pdf
In short it is shown to be no more effective than a placebo. By
endorsing placebos people are encouraged not to seek effective medical
treatments, this has lead to a number of deaths. People have the
right to choose that - but by voting for you I expect you not to
encourage irresponsible behaviour.
If you would like details of the studies showing the ineffectiveness of
homoeopathy or some heart breaking examples of deaths caused by people
ignoring conventional medicine then I will be happy to provide them.
If you feel your endorsement of homoeopathy is valid then I would be
very interested to hear why.
You have a responsibility to help your constituents - please don't be
responsible for their deaths.
Yours sincerely,
XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Here is his response:
30th July 2007
Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,
Thank you for your email of the 26th July. I am very grateful for your support since you moved to XXXXXXX and for the past eight years. I am happy to tell you that a large number of local residents who describe themselves as socialists also are good enough to tell me that they vote for me! I certainly regard myself as in a tradition as radical as that of many socialists though I have since my teenage years always been a liberal.
I have indeed signed Early Day Motion 1240 welcoming the positive contribution made to the health of the nation by NHS homeopathic hospitals. I do not support them because homeopathy is always better than conventional medicine, but because for some people in certain circumstances, people tell me regularly, that homeopathic remedies have been effective and successful for them.
Of course I take seriously the points which you make, and which are made by colleagues of mine such as Dr Evan Harris, the MP for Oxford West and Abbingdon. I hope that you will feel that the best and most honest response I can give you is to look at the material you have referred me to and I am also happy to look at other material which would show the ineffectiveness of homeopathy wither in some particular cases or in general. I certainly do not have a closed mind on the issue.
If you would be good enough to send me a reference to a small amount of appropriate reading, I should be happy to follow it up. If you would then be willing to meet, I would be happy to arrange that too.
I certainly have no wish to be responsible for anybody's death.
yours sincerely and with best wishes,
XXXXX XXXXX MP
My MP has replied to my email and has requested a little further reading - if anyone has any suggestions (also examples of deaths caused by ignoring conventional medicine) then please do contribute.
Here is my original email - I have removed both of our names since I have not asked his permission to publish his response:
Thursday 26 July 2007
Dear XXXXX XXXXXX,
I come from a Socialist background but since moving to XXXXXXXXX I have
been proud to vote for you for the past 8 years.
However, it has been brought to my attention that you have signed an
Early Day Motion to protest the closing of the Royal Homoeopathic
Hospital.
I can only assume you are not fully aware of what homoeopathy is.
If this is the case then a 2 page explanation is here:
w w w.senseaboutscience.org.uk/pdf/SenseAboutHomeopathy.pdf
In short it is shown to be no more effective than a placebo. By
endorsing placebos people are encouraged not to seek effective medical
treatments, this has lead to a number of deaths. People have the
right to choose that - but by voting for you I expect you not to
encourage irresponsible behaviour.
If you would like details of the studies showing the ineffectiveness of
homoeopathy or some heart breaking examples of deaths caused by people
ignoring conventional medicine then I will be happy to provide them.
If you feel your endorsement of homoeopathy is valid then I would be
very interested to hear why.
You have a responsibility to help your constituents - please don't be
responsible for their deaths.
Yours sincerely,
XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Here is his response:
30th July 2007
Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,
Thank you for your email of the 26th July. I am very grateful for your support since you moved to XXXXXXX and for the past eight years. I am happy to tell you that a large number of local residents who describe themselves as socialists also are good enough to tell me that they vote for me! I certainly regard myself as in a tradition as radical as that of many socialists though I have since my teenage years always been a liberal.
I have indeed signed Early Day Motion 1240 welcoming the positive contribution made to the health of the nation by NHS homeopathic hospitals. I do not support them because homeopathy is always better than conventional medicine, but because for some people in certain circumstances, people tell me regularly, that homeopathic remedies have been effective and successful for them.
Of course I take seriously the points which you make, and which are made by colleagues of mine such as Dr Evan Harris, the MP for Oxford West and Abbingdon. I hope that you will feel that the best and most honest response I can give you is to look at the material you have referred me to and I am also happy to look at other material which would show the ineffectiveness of homeopathy wither in some particular cases or in general. I certainly do not have a closed mind on the issue.
If you would be good enough to send me a reference to a small amount of appropriate reading, I should be happy to follow it up. If you would then be willing to meet, I would be happy to arrange that too.
I certainly have no wish to be responsible for anybody's death.
yours sincerely and with best wishes,
XXXXX XXXXX MP
Asolepius
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,150
Matty - this is an impressively intelligent response. Contrast this with what I got from my MP:
You can do no better than to rely on the evidence. Send your MP this link to Bandolier, a totally non-partisan and objective site. Point out to him that encouraging people to believe things without evidence has a corrosive effect on society. I don't know where he stands on Iraq, but that's an example of something that can happen when you don't check the evidence.
I have no compunction in revealing that he is Robert Key. I have written to him on several subjects, and he never expresses any desire to listen to another view. I gave him a copy of The God Delusion (the Pledgebank initiative) and he refused to read it.
You can do no better than to rely on the evidence. Send your MP this link to Bandolier, a totally non-partisan and objective site. Point out to him that encouraging people to believe things without evidence has a corrosive effect on society. I don't know where he stands on Iraq, but that's an example of something that can happen when you don't check the evidence.
volatile
Scholar and a Gentleman
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 6,729
That is more than disappointing. Homoeopathy isn't an "opinion", and medicine should not be prescribed on gut feeling. Did he make any attempt to justify why you might have to "agree to differ"?
Might I suggest going to your local paper with this?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Matty, you have a grown-up for an MP. And by the way, Evan Harris is great on the subject! Since your MP has come out so well from the discussion, would you consider at least revealing the name of your constituency?
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
Last edited:
volatile
Scholar and a Gentleman
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 6,729
Indeed. It does actually sound like he might see the light if presented with a little bit more evidence. I understand that he can take his name off of the EDM - Matty, might I suggest that your follow up ask him to consider doing just that?
You mistake my meaning. The forum, in general, is the water. The community is the current, and whatever testing of that that may occur is as incidental as a twig (or branch or tree, depending) falling into it.
Asolepius: I'll try to remember that when I reach my silver anniversary...if I still happen to be around.
BSM: I don't know. However, knowing that there is even a small possibility of harm to human tissue, from however minute the dose is from such scanners (though repeated, daily exposure may add up), I might think that any organic substance might suffer some degradation. I have an answer to that, though: alter the economic model and ensure that each household has a sophisticated kit to grow, extract, and refine such plants as are found to have beneficial/enriching compounds.
Supplemental: It appears Rolfe is ignoring my further responses, for reasons I can only guess at.
volatile
Scholar and a Gentleman
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 6,729
You mistake mine - I was joking. Geddit?
Rolfe
Adult human female
You can stop guessing. I didn't even notice you'd posted anything. But since this thread is about the specific topic of writing to MPs about an Early Day Motion, something deemed important enough to make it a sticky, I intend to confine any further posts of mine in this thread to that topic.
Rolfe.
Nope. Went right over me. Alas.
Rolfe: thanks for the information. That possibility was a consideration.
Follow up letter to MP
This is what I've come up with as a reply. Could someone please check my understanding of the Bandolier report is correct. Any comments before I send it are welcome.
Rolfe - for now I won't ask him if I can publish his name on this thread as I don't want to come across as trying to bully him in to a decision.
Bold words link to the hyperlinks at the end. I'm not allowed to publish links on here yet.
REPLY:
Thank you for your timely and honest response to my email regarding Early Day Motion 1240 relating to NHS homeopathic hospitals.
I can easily believe you regularly hear from people endorsing the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies – I also hear the same, including from members of my own family! I also hear endorsements of horoscopes, contacting the dead, UFO’s etc but I think anecdotal evidence although it should not be ignored, counts for very little since we are all easily capable of self delusion. Small sample size and confirmation bias also weaken the strength of this kind of information. I’m a firm believer in evidence based decisions as I’m sure many innocent Iraqi civilians would agree.
Over the years there have been many homeopathic studies (some done well – some done poorly). Recently 89 of the higher quality studies have been collated by the Lancet medical journal (warning 7 pages of detailed analysis) – a one page summary by a non-partisan and objective site can be found at Bandolier. It includes the cases where there does appear to be some statistical significance but once all the data is put together it comes to the conclusion “If this is the best they can do, why bother?”
It is worth looking again at the two principles behind homeopathy:
1) Similia similibus curantur - like cures like. This sounds like vaccination and so could be quite reasonable, but it ‘works’ very differently – instead of using a similar virus to build resistance, it is the symptoms of the problem that are matched – not the cause.
Thus, Diarrhea is cured with a diluted laxative.
Vomiting is cured by a diluted emetic.
Feelings of repression are cured by using actual pieces of the Berlin Wall !!!!!
2) Potentiation - that this effect becomes stronger the more the curative mixture is diluted. Common dilutions are measured in centesimal scales, e.g. 30C. This means that a drop of the substance is added to a volume of 100 drops of water and tapped against a leather book (succussed). A drop of this dilute mixture is diluted 100:1 and succussed. For 30C dilution, the process is repeated 30 times – this means you will have one drop of original mixture spread amongst the combined volume of all the oceans on the planet.
Homeopathy is very attractive since it is cheap, easy, has no side effects (since it is virtually pure water) and is a one stop shop for all problems thus it compares well to conventional medicine with it’s expense, involvement of painful and frightening procedures, risk of dangerous side effects and lack of cures for many situations. The world would be a better place if homeopathy was true - unfortunately there is no reason why it should work and no real evidence it does.
I feel it is not fair to expect individuals to make an informed decision on whether homeopathy is a sensible choice when much of the information needed is not presented openly. This is very dangerous when it could be a decision that dramatically affects their health such as a headache that turns out to be a brain tumour – any delay in seeking effective medical treatment could ultimately make the difference of whether they live or die. Anything that helps normalise homeopathy within society is ultimately partially responsible. Use in HIV control.
I don’t know if withdrawing support for EDM’s is an option but thanks again for looking at the subject in a mature fashion.
7 pages w w w.farmaciasfrancesco.it/Lancet_Omeopatia.pdf
one page w w w.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band45/b45-2.html
Berlin Wall w w w.interhomeopathy.org/index.php/journal/entry/berlin_wall/
Use in HIV control w w w.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/31000506.cms
This is what I've come up with as a reply. Could someone please check my understanding of the Bandolier report is correct. Any comments before I send it are welcome.
Rolfe - for now I won't ask him if I can publish his name on this thread as I don't want to come across as trying to bully him in to a decision.
Bold words link to the hyperlinks at the end. I'm not allowed to publish links on here yet.
REPLY:
Thank you for your timely and honest response to my email regarding Early Day Motion 1240 relating to NHS homeopathic hospitals.
I can easily believe you regularly hear from people endorsing the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies – I also hear the same, including from members of my own family! I also hear endorsements of horoscopes, contacting the dead, UFO’s etc but I think anecdotal evidence although it should not be ignored, counts for very little since we are all easily capable of self delusion. Small sample size and confirmation bias also weaken the strength of this kind of information. I’m a firm believer in evidence based decisions as I’m sure many innocent Iraqi civilians would agree.
Over the years there have been many homeopathic studies (some done well – some done poorly). Recently 89 of the higher quality studies have been collated by the Lancet medical journal (warning 7 pages of detailed analysis) – a one page summary by a non-partisan and objective site can be found at Bandolier. It includes the cases where there does appear to be some statistical significance but once all the data is put together it comes to the conclusion “If this is the best they can do, why bother?”
It is worth looking again at the two principles behind homeopathy:
1) Similia similibus curantur - like cures like. This sounds like vaccination and so could be quite reasonable, but it ‘works’ very differently – instead of using a similar virus to build resistance, it is the symptoms of the problem that are matched – not the cause.
Thus, Diarrhea is cured with a diluted laxative.
Vomiting is cured by a diluted emetic.
Feelings of repression are cured by using actual pieces of the Berlin Wall !!!!!
2) Potentiation - that this effect becomes stronger the more the curative mixture is diluted. Common dilutions are measured in centesimal scales, e.g. 30C. This means that a drop of the substance is added to a volume of 100 drops of water and tapped against a leather book (succussed). A drop of this dilute mixture is diluted 100:1 and succussed. For 30C dilution, the process is repeated 30 times – this means you will have one drop of original mixture spread amongst the combined volume of all the oceans on the planet.
Homeopathy is very attractive since it is cheap, easy, has no side effects (since it is virtually pure water) and is a one stop shop for all problems thus it compares well to conventional medicine with it’s expense, involvement of painful and frightening procedures, risk of dangerous side effects and lack of cures for many situations. The world would be a better place if homeopathy was true - unfortunately there is no reason why it should work and no real evidence it does.
I feel it is not fair to expect individuals to make an informed decision on whether homeopathy is a sensible choice when much of the information needed is not presented openly. This is very dangerous when it could be a decision that dramatically affects their health such as a headache that turns out to be a brain tumour – any delay in seeking effective medical treatment could ultimately make the difference of whether they live or die. Anything that helps normalise homeopathy within society is ultimately partially responsible. Use in HIV control.
I don’t know if withdrawing support for EDM’s is an option but thanks again for looking at the subject in a mature fashion.
7 pages w w w.farmaciasfrancesco.it/Lancet_Omeopatia.pdf
one page w w w.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band45/b45-2.html
Berlin Wall w w w.interhomeopathy.org/index.php/journal/entry/berlin_wall/
Use in HIV control w w w.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/31000506.cms
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Here are your links in order
http://www.farmaciasfrancesco.it/Lancet_Omeopatia.pdf
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band45/b45-2.html
http://www.interhomeopathy.org/index.php/journal/entry/berlin_wall/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com//articleshow/31000506.cms?
If my calculations are correct a 30C solution is like dissolving one cubic millimetre of a substance in a cube with sides over 1 million kilometres long. You could add that to your letter.
Can somebody please check my maths.
http://www.farmaciasfrancesco.it/Lancet_Omeopatia.pdf
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band45/b45-2.html
http://www.interhomeopathy.org/index.php/journal/entry/berlin_wall/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com//articleshow/31000506.cms?
If my calculations are correct a 30C solution is like dissolving one cubic millimetre of a substance in a cube with sides over 1 million kilometres long. You could add that to your letter.
Can somebody please check my maths.
Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
- Joined
- May 16, 2003
- Messages
- 6,241
Would take out any reference to the Iraq war - it adds nothing as it is not a scientific issue.
You may also wish to refer to the recent cases where drugs which are proven to be clinically effective have been excluded from availability on the NHS due to lack of funding. Every penny spent on homeopathy means less funds to do something useful, like prevent blindness.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6749351.stm
Last edited:
Asolepius
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,150
If you are going to mention Irag then you have to explain why. In fact I introduced the analogy because this whole argument is not just about science. It is about respecting evidence. Apologists for homeopathy often argue that the cost is small and the damage to the NHS is not significant. This is not true. The damage is potentially large, if clinicians are encouraged to treat patients using guesswork and superstition instead of choosing that which is most likely to work (actually an obligation of a medical licensee). Extending this concept beyond health care and science, two public enquiries considered that Tony Blair was not obliged to check the evidence before taking us to war. What if he had treated the evidence he was given with the same rigour that a scientist does? Does anyone think the war would have happened?
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Good link to debunk the subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathyqa.shtml
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
You might also want to point MPs towards the House of Lords' Science and Technology Committee's Sixth Special report:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldselect/ldsctech/123/12301.htm from 2000.
At the very least, perhaps, point them to the sections on Placebo Affect and evidence for efficacy.
Last edited:
Just a reminder that Dr Peter Fisher, homeopath to Her Majesty The Queen and Clinical Director of the Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital (RLHH), has been running a campaign against the withdrawal of funding of treatment at the RLHH.
In March of this year, he asked supporters of homeopathy to write to their MPs expressing their concern about the threat to the RLHH’s future and asking that their MPs put Parliamentary Questions to the Secretary of State.
To learn more about his campaign, including his suggested Parliamentary Questions and details of his four PCT group listings*, see here:
http://www.naturalmatters.net/article.asp?article=3032&cat=85
*Continuing to fund
Putting in a referral management centre
Recently cut the contract completely
Long term refusniks