Holocaust deniers, explain this.

[Dogzilla]

There is some truth to this. I do find it somewhat bizarre when Jewish people seem to get thoroughly upset about including other targeted groups in with the Jews. Nevertheless, Jews and Gypsies I think have a certain claim of "specialness" in this regard, simply because unlike some other victims of Nazi brutality, they didn't have to do anything in order to be targeted for murder. They simply had to exist.

While others suffered, and while others may have eventually been targeted for extermination, those two groups were targeted for extermination for no other reason than their identity, and the plan to exterminate them was actually put into action.

Interesting that you would include the Roma with the Jews as targeted victims of the Nazis. Many Jews would agree with you but, as you said, there are a very vocal few who would not.

Why do you believe the Roma were intentionally targeted for extermination the way the Jews were?

Because they weren't in Germany? That's the subject of the report.

Good point. I still find it ironic that most historians agree that the camps where the Jews were gassed en mass are all in what is now Poland. They were liberated by the Soviets who evidently didn't find any emaciated prisoners because the photographs they took show prisoners who appear well fed.

The horrific photographs and film of emaciated prisoners and piles of corpses are all from the camps in the west that were liberated by the British and Americans in the final weeks of the war. Nobody claims today that Jews were gassed in any of these camps.

There were Jews in these camps but they were there because the death camps in the east had been evacuated in advance of the Soviet army. The tens of thousands of Jews who had miraculously survived the death marches to the west were imprisoned in quarantine barracks apart from the other prisoners. There had been a typhus epidemic raging in the camps when the camps were liberated but in the case of Buchenwald the Jews in quarantine had avoided the epidemic. So all the emaciated corpses that were photographed there were not the Jews who were targeted for extermination.

It's ironic because all the iconic Holocaust photographs and motion pictures were taken at the camps in the west where the Holocaust didn't occur while comparable scenes of horror weren't found at the camps where the Holocaust did occur.

It's like they're saying 'we don't have any pictures of the Holocaust so we'll show you some really disgusting photographs of things that aren't the Holocaust and hope you don't notice the difference.'

Not exactly a sign of good scholarship.

 

[MG1962]

Well Dogzilla I guess my next question to you is victims of gas the only qualification for a holocaust vicitm?

 

[Meadmaker]

Interesting that you would include the Roma with the Jews as targeted victims of the Nazis. Many Jews would agree with you but, as you said, there are a very vocal few who would not.

Why do you believe the Roma were intentionally targeted for extermination the way the Jews were?

I'm not sure I understand the question. It could be interpreted in two ways. I'll answer both.

What is my opinion on why they targeted the Roma, just as they targeted the Jews?

Jews and Gypsies were both minority groups, living someplace other than a land where they were the dominant group. (i.e. they were not in their own homeland. I don't like using that phrase, because I think the idea that one set of territory somehow "belongs" to people of a certain ethnicity is what causes all these problems in the first place.) Because of their minority status, with different customs and languages, they were often the targets of persecution, throughout history. It's not surprising that a group of racists who thought northern Europeans were special would dislike dark skinned people with strange customs living in their midst.

The other interpretation is as follows:

Many claim that Roma were targeted for extermination by the Nazis. Why do you believe this claim?

The answer to that question is that the evidence that it happened is overwhelming. No sane person could examine the evidence and conclude otherwise.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well Dogzilla I guess my next question to you is victims of gas the only qualification for a holocaust vicitm?

Fail. You forgot to specify which gas, what quantity, how given, what ruse was used, and where the bodies went. Try again.

 

[Dogzilla]

Well Dogzilla I guess my next question to you is victims of gas the only qualification for a holocaust vicitm?

Not at all. I think the official Holocaust historiography would be more credible without the gas chambers but the fact that I'm called a Holocaust denier when I say the evidence for the gas chambers is extremely weak tells me that many people believe you can't have a Holocaust without them.

 

[uke2se]

Not at all. I think the official Holocaust historiography would be more credible without the gas chambers but the fact that I'm called a Holocaust denier when I say the evidence for the gas chambers is extremely weak tells me that many people believe you can't have a Holocaust without them.

I would call you a holocaust denier because you deny a very real and well established part of the holocaust in the face of all the evidence. Nobody is interested in forming a narrative of the holocaust that is credible to you. We're just interested in what really happened, and we have a good idea. Your failure to see this, along with you finding it amusing to watch Jewish prisoners grinding the bones of their friends and families to dust in the extermination camps tells me that you are just another vile neo-Nazi.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Not at all. I think the official Holocaust historiography would be more credible without the gas chambers but the fact that I'm called a Holocaust denier when I say the evidence for the gas chambers is extremely weak tells me that many people believe you can't have a Holocaust without them.

No, it just means you're a denier. Live with it. Or not.

 

[Dogzilla]

I'm not sure I understand the question. It could be interpreted in two ways. I'll answer both..........

Many claim that Roma were targeted for extermination by the Nazis. Why do you believe this claim?

The answer to that question is that the evidence that it happened is overwhelming. No sane person could examine the evidence and conclude otherwise.

I can see the phrasing of my question isn't very clear. But your second interpretation of it was what I was actually what I was asking.

You said that the evidence that it happened is overwhelming. Can you be a little more specific?

 

[uke2se]

I can see the phrasing of my question isn't very clear. But your second interpretation of it was what I was actually what I was asking.

You said that the evidence that it happened is overwhelming. Can you be a little more specific?

Physical evidence (graves, gas chambers, incinerators), testimonies from surviving victims, testimonies from perpetrators, records and documents and tons of photos and films.

Take a trip to Auschwitz and go on a guided tour. Pay a visit to a holocaust museum. Read a book not written by Nazis.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Physical evidence (graves, gas chambers, incinerators), testimonies from surviving victims, testimonies from perpetrators, records and documents and tons of photos and films.

Take a trip to Auschwitz and go on a guided tour. Pay a visit to a holocaust museum. Read a book not written by Nazis.

You know he's just going to go "La, la, la."

 

[Dogzilla]

No, it just means you're a denier. Live with it. Or not.

OK, I'll go along with that. Then please remember that somebody who denies the Holocaust doesn't deny the fact that Nazi Germany was racist state that had a clear anti-Semitic agenda, that it persecuted the Jews under its control and was very clearly working towards a Europe that was free of Jews and Jewish influence. Neither do we deny that Jews suffered more than other ethnic groups that were under Nazi rule and Jews were killed for no other reason than because they were Jews.

And please don't use transductive logic that thinks that evidence of official anti-Semitism is evidence of a desire to murder or that reports that Jews were shot on the Russian front is evidence they were gassed at Belzec.

It annoys the animals and makes you look stupid.

 

[Dogzilla]

Physical evidence (graves, gas chambers, incinerators), testimonies from surviving victims, testimonies from perpetrators, records and documents and tons of photos and films.

Not broad sweep of the hand evidence like tons of pictures or thousands of testimonies. I could say we have physical evidence and thousands of eyewitness accounts and tons of photos and film that prove UFOs are real. You'd probably would want me to be more specific than that if I wanted to convince you.

Take a trip to Auschwitz and go on a guided tour.

Been there.

Pay a visit to a holocaust museum.

Done that. In fact, seeing Auschwitz myself and visiting the USHMM only brought up more questions.

Read a book not written by Nazis.

I don't know if I've ever read one that was written by a Nazi. I haven't read Mein Kampf and I don't know of any others off the top of my head. Can you recommend one?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

OK, I'll go along with that. Then please remember that somebody who denies the Holocaust doesn't deny the fact that Nazi Germany was racist state that had a clear anti-Semitic agenda, that it persecuted the Jews under its control and was very clearly working towards a Europe that was free of Jews and Jewish influence. Neither do we deny that Jews suffered more than other ethnic groups that were under Nazi rule and Jews were killed for no other reason than because they were Jews.

And please don't use transductive logic that thinks that evidence of official anti-Semitism is evidence of a desire to murder or that reports that Jews were shot on the Russian front is evidence they were gassed at Belzec.

It annoys the animals and makes you look stupid.

Sorry, bucko, but if you lay down with the dogs, you get up with fleas.

 

[uke2se]

OK, I'll go along with that. Then please remember that somebody who denies the Holocaust doesn't deny the fact that Nazi Germany was racist state that had a clear anti-Semitic agenda, that it persecuted the Jews under its control and was very clearly working towards a Europe that was free of Jews and Jewish influence. Neither do we deny that Jews suffered more than other ethnic groups that were under Nazi rule and Jews were killed for no other reason than because they were Jews.

And please don't use transductive logic that thinks that evidence of official anti-Semitism is evidence of a desire to murder or that reports that Jews were shot on the Russian front is evidence they were gassed at Belzec.

It annoys the animals and makes you look stupid.

Sorry, it's too late for the "oh, I'm not a Nazi" speech. You lost that opportunity when you expressed amusement at the thought of Jewish prisoners being forced to grind the bones of friends and family into dust.

 

[uke2se]

Not broad sweep of the hand evidence like tons of pictures or thousands of testimonies. I could say we have physical evidence and thousands of eyewitness accounts and tons of photos and film that prove UFOs are real.

You could, but you would be lying. I'm not lying. We do have physical evidence (graves, gas chambers, incinerators), testimonies from surviving victims, testimonies from perpetrators, records and documents and tons of photos and films. Some of it isn't on the Internet, so you might want to look beyond your mother's basement if you want to clue in on reality.

You'd probably would want me to be more specific than that if I wanted to convince you.

No, I'd dismiss you as a loon, rather like I'm dismissing you as a Nazi now.

Been there.

But you missed the gas chambers, mass graves and incinerators?

Done that. In fact, seeing Auschwitz myself and visiting the USHMM only brought up more questions.

Why didn't you ask the guide? That's what he's there for.

I don't know if I've ever read one that was written by a Nazi. I haven't read Mein Kampf and I don't know of any others off the top of my head. Can you recommend one?

No, Nazi masturbatory material would be your department.

 

[Dogzilla]

You could, but you would be lying. I'm not lying. We do have physical evidence (graves, gas chambers, incinerators), testimonies from surviving victims, testimonies from perpetrators, records and documents and tons of photos and films. Some of it isn't on the Internet, so you might want to look beyond your mother's basement if you want to clue in on reality.

So is that you don't have any evidence or you don't know where to find it?

No, I'd dismiss you as a loon, rather like I'm dismissing you as a Nazi now.

So you're not open to new information if it might challenge a preconceived world view? It seems a rather limiting approach to life but if it works for you...

You should actually look at some of the evidence there is for UFOs. I personally am skeptical but that's because I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you believe in gas chambers, you can hardly call somebody a loon just because they might believe in UFOs.

But you missed the gas chambers, mass graves and incinerators?

I saw the gas chamber. The one at the main camp that is exactly the way the Soviets found it in 1945. The one where four million innocent souls lost their lives (because it was still four million when I was there). I saw the actual holes in the ceiling where the Zyklon B was dropped into the room.

I didn't notice the marks on the walls floors and ceilings where room partitions and plumbing fixtures had obviously been but fortunately my camera recorded those for me.

I saw an open space that I was told (and believed) was a mass grave. I didn't notice the two foot deep ditch next to it that had water pooling up in the bottom proving that this 'mass grave' would hit ground water once it got deeper than two feet. But again, my trusty camera saw it.

I saw the crematorium right next to the gas chamber but I didn't see there was nowhere to store the coke or the coal for crematorium. I did see the chimney outside of the crematorium and I thought it was strange that it wasn't attached to the building in any way.

I saw the Wall of Death but I didn't see the lack of bullet holes in the wall. And unfortunately I didn't see the swimming pool.

Why didn't you ask the guide? That's what he's there for.

The guide spoke pretty good English and told us everything we needed to know with the appropriate reverence toward the horrors that had taken place in the camp. Except for the chimney, everything seemed plausible.

If I could do it over again, I would ask more questions like: "Did the SS put the gas chamber right next to the SS hospital and offices so the SS would be exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas several times a day when the gas chamber was ventilated?" or "Is the reason the gas chamber looks like a bomb shelter and is located next to the SS offices because it was a bomb shelter for the SS?"

Alas, if I knew then what I know now, I could've asked enough questions to convince the guide himself that calling this building a gas chamber is an insult to his intelligence. And when I was there, holocaust denial wasn't illegal in Poland so I could actually ask questions like that without fear of arrest.

Couldashouldawoulda.

No, Nazi masturbatory material would be your department.

Are you talking about those Nazi sexploitation flicks that were all the rage in the mid-1970s?

 

[Dogzilla]

Sorry, it's too late for the "oh, I'm not a Nazi" speech. You lost that opportunity when you expressed amusement at the thought of Jewish prisoners being forced to grind the bones of friends and family into dust.

I'm sorry if I offended anybody but I do find humor of the absurd very very funny. And a bunch of Jews smashing four million pounds of bones to a fine dust with wooden mallets is so absurd that I just had to laugh.

It saddens me that there are people (lots of people) who have never learned the critical thinking skills necessary to see the absurdity of this scenario but it is hilarious nonetheless.

 

[uke2se]

So is that you don't have any evidence or you don't know where to find it?

Yes, I have evidence and I know were to find it. You do as well. It's called "the library". Failing that, you could look up the records of the Nuremberg trial, the many documents outlining the Nazi atrocities, the many interviews with surviving victims and perpetrators or visit the sites (again).

So you're not open to new information if it might challenge a preconceived world view? It seems a rather limiting approach to life but if it works for you...

I am open to it, but I require evidence. You don't have any, so that rather makes it hard for me to change my mind.

You should actually look at some of the evidence there is for UFOs.

I have. It's all crap.

I personally am skeptical but that's because I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

You certainly don't act on that belief.

If you believe in gas chambers, you can hardly call somebody a loon just because they might believe in UFOs.

I can and I did. Gas chambers is the accepted truth, your denial of it notwithstanding.

I saw the gas chamber. The one at the main camp that is exactly the way the Soviets found it in 1945. The one where four million innocent souls lost their lives (because it was still four million when I was there). I saw the actual holes in the ceiling where the Zyklon B was dropped into the room.

Yet you don't believe it.

I didn't notice the marks on the walls floors and ceilings where room partitions and plumbing fixtures had obviously been but fortunately my camera recorded those for me.

Relevance?

I saw an open space that I was told (and believed) was a mass grave. I didn't notice the two foot deep ditch next to it that had water pooling up in the bottom proving that this 'mass grave' would hit ground water once it got deeper than two feet. But again, my trusty camera saw it.

You mean, unless the two foot deep ditch was filled with rain water, or the geography of the site had changed somewhat in 60 years. Your denial of reality would be admirable if it wasn't so sad.

I saw the crematorium right next to the gas chamber but I didn't see there was nowhere to store the coke or the coal for crematorium.

You should have asked the guide.

I did see the chimney outside of the crematorium and I thought it was strange that it wasn't attached to the building in any way.

Again, you should have asked the guide. Failing that, you could have investigated further.

I saw the Wall of Death but I didn't see the lack of bullet holes in the wall.

You mean this wall with several clear bullet holes?

And unfortunately I didn't see the swimming pool.

Why unfortunate?

The guide spoke pretty good English and told us everything we needed to know with the appropriate reverence toward the horrors that had taken place in the camp. Except for the chimney, everything seemed plausible.

Did you ask about the chimney? Do you think it is completely impossible for you to have been wrong about it? Like, for example, that the smoke was led under ground to the chimney?

If I could do it over again, I would ask more questions like: "Did the SS put the gas chamber right next to the SS hospital and offices so the SS would be exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas several times a day when the gas chamber was ventilated?"

Explain please.

http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/Auschwitz/map.jpg

or "Is the reason the gas chamber looks like a bomb shelter and is located next to the SS offices because it was a bomb shelter for the SS?"

Again, explain please.

http://holocaust-info.dk/auschwitz/Auschwitz/map.jpg

The gas chambers and crematorium are on the other side of the compound from the SS offices and quarters.

Alas, if I knew then what I know now, I could've asked enough questions to convince the guide himself that calling this building a gas chamber is an insult to his intelligence.

Or, more likely, you would have been schooled on your ignorance of events.

And when I was there, holocaust denial wasn't illegal in Poland so I could actually ask questions like that without fear of arrest.

Well, thankfully most of Europe has learned from past mistakes, so we don't really want Nazis in power again.

Are you talking about those Nazi sexploitation flicks that were all the rage in the mid-1970s?

No. I'm talking about wherever you get your flawed information.

 

[uke2se]

I'm sorry if I offended anybody but I do find humor of the absurd very very funny. And a bunch of Jews smashing four million pounds of bones to a fine dust with wooden mallets is so absurd that I just had to laugh.

It saddens me that there are people (lots of people) who have never learned the critical thinking skills necessary to see the absurdity of this scenario but it is hilarious nonetheless.

You offended and you keep offending. Now you are insulting our critical thinking skills just because we don't buy into your particular skewed view of history.

I repeat my request for you to leave quietly. Your mere presence here is offensive.

 

[uke2se]

"Is the reason the gas chamber looks like a bomb shelter and is located next to the SS offices because it was a bomb shelter for the SS?"

Just figured out what the heck you were on about. You are talking about Krema I which was an experimental small gas chamber which was subsequently discontinued in favor of the big Krema II-V and rebuilt to an air raid shelter for the SS.

So, yes, Krema I might look like a bomb shelter because that's what it was rebuilt to. However, it was restored to resemble the original gas chamber after the war.