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Historical Jesus

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You do realise that this is putting the cart before the horse and is quite circular? You are saying that you believe the mythical Jesus origin story contains the date of the existence of the real Jesus?

What I’m saying is that the Jesus religion began around the time when the real Jesus is supposed to have lived. Before this period there was NO Jesus religion. Why did such a religion begin and evolve at this time is the question. I suggest the most likely explanation is that a real figure was the catalyst at its core. And that the mythical stories coalesced around this figure as the Jesus story grew in the telling.

Why should that part be correct if all the rest isn't? Plus of course that date is in fact a speculation in itself - it is not contained in or rather is not consistent in the mythical Jesus's stories.

Roger mentioned above about ignoring the "mundane" in the stories of the mythical Jesus, problem is that when you remove the supernatural from the mythical Jesus the mundane bits we are left with are either unevidenced or now known to be historically inaccurate or just completely wrong and made up.

The mythicists claim that Jesus was a celestial being concretized by Paul and the gospels. There is just as little evidence for this hypothesis as there is for a miracle-working Jesus walking around Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence for the relatively sudden beginning of the X’tian religion as such.

And it is reasonable to assert that the religion we now call Christianity arose like many other religions (that we have pretty much accurate records and accounts to look at).

This always gets back to one thing - lack of evidence for a real Jesus, a shedload of evidence for a mythical Jesus.

Once again, the “shed-load of evidence” for the existence of an historical figure is the existence of the X’tian religion itself. Unlike the pagan religions - whose origins can be traced to the remotest eras (and themselves evolved out of Animism), this can’t be said of X’tianity.
 
Actually, Jesus's birth is usually put at around 4 BCE, mainly because of the references to Herod the Great who died around that time. Also, the Gospel of Luke has Jesus "about 30 years" around "the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar", which puts his birth at around 1 BCE.

The dates for the birth of Bible Jesus are completely irrelevant because it is obvious that the Bible nativity stories are complete fiction.

It is most stupid non-historical garbage for Bible authors [Matthew and Luke] to claim their Jesus was born of a Ghost in the time of Herod or when there was a Census and they couldn't even get their ghost story straight.

Bible Jesus of Nazareth is pure unadulterated fiction.

There were messiah-types like Theudas around that time as well, leading people in (very short) holy revolt against Roman rule. Jesus is often lumped in with them. Not saying you're an atheist or mythicist, Delvo, but I believe the quote by some atheists on the topic used to be "figures like Jesus were a dime a dozen in those days!" Maybe the mythicists now use "Jesus was so unique to the time he didn't exist"??? :)

But, what do you say about your Lord and Saviour Jesus?

Was your Lord and Saviour a one-time phenomenon?

People who claim they are Christians must say their Savior exist in order to go to heaven.

I think it's possible that the historical Jesus lived either earlier or later than supposed, and it deserves consideration. I agree with the thrust of your statements (though not on how the census was used as a birth-date selector). I've been nitpicky above, on order to help with accuracy of the data.

You think its possible that Bible Jesus lived because the Bible says so. Bible believers must believe their Jesus exist.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 
What I’m saying is that the Jesus religion began around the time when the real Jesus is supposed to have lived. Before this period there was NO Jesus religion. Why did such a religion begin and evolve at this time is the question. I suggest the most likely explanation is that a real figure was the catalyst at its core. And that the mythical stories coalesced around this figure as the Jesus story grew in the telling.

There is no real Jesus in the Bible. You know that the Christian Bible specifically states that Jesus was the son of a Ghost.

Your suggestion that there was a real Jesus is just baseless speculation.

Christian writers stated the Christion religion originated from the belief that God came down from heaven and lived in a Virgin.

Jesus cult Christianity never originated with a mere human Jesus.

Aristides' Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel.....

The mythicists claim that Jesus was a celestial being concretized by Paul and the gospels. There is just as little evidence for this hypothesis as there is for a miracle-working Jesus walking around Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence for the relatively sudden beginning of the X’tian religion as such.

There is no historical evidence of a relatively sudden beginning of Christianity.

Non-apologetic writers of the 1st century made no mention whatsoever of followers of Jesus of Nazareth, Paul or the disciples.


Once again, the “shed-load of evidence” for the existence of an historical figure is the existence of the X’tian religion itself. Unlike the pagan religions - whose origins can be traced to the remotest eras (and themselves evolved out of Animism), this can’t be said of X’tianity.

Your statement is quite illogical.

Marcion started a Christian religion by preaching the Savior was without birth and without body. See Terullian "On the Flesh of Christ"

Valentinus started a Christian religion by preaching the Savior was a product of Aeons. See "Against Heresies 1

Theophilus claimed people were called Christians because they were anointed with the oil of God. See Theophilus "To Autolycus".

It simply cannot be shown that there must have been a human Jesus for the start of a Christian religion.
 
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Yup. He has told us he has no qualifications in the matter. Not going to stop him hurling insults willy-nilly.

He opens the majority (not all) of his posts with a direct insult. This is a merely a rhetorical tactic to sieze the higher ground.

Truth be told, he has no more expertise that any John/Jane Doe in the street. IanS, even though we disagree, is far more credible, for example. I would quite happily have a civil discussion with him on the topic. This is not possible with the current most vociferous poster. He apparently simply wants an ugly scrap. And that interests me none.

ETA: You may wonder why I do not report the insults. That is because I do not want them to stop. They are hilarious.


Obviously dejudge has a writing style which people find irritating and annoying. And even many years ago when I first encountered his posts on this subject, I found that he'd often reply against even sceptics who were agreeing with things that he'd said, but he'd still do that in a style which rebuked them for even slightest thing they may have said that did not quite fit with his own posts.

But I eventually learned to get over that. And for several reasons. First of all, English is clearly not his main language - his writing in English has got much better, but it was far more basic and error-prone when I first encountered him. So to some extent, I had already by then become used to giving him a bit of a "pass" on the way he was responding in what was not his first language.

But when you say he starts most of his posts with a direct insult - I don't really see that in what he posts. Because, for one thing, he's mostly replying to people who have already been far more insulting and abusive to him! So, if some blame is to be apportioned there, then I think you definitely need to look at the sort of posts he's replying to and see what they already said to him, and about him ... it's almost all personalised insults against him.

Is he an "expert" on this stuff? We'll he's probably the most expert person here when it comes to knowing what all sorts of non-biblical writers had said about various Jesus beliefs ... and if we are honest, most people in these threads, and in all the previous HJ threads going back at least 12 years, had probably never even heard of most of the named non-biblical writers that he's quoted at length (with references). So he is probably the best, and most accurate source for what was actually written about Jesus both in the biblical sources and in non-biblical sources.

At lot of what dejudge has posted recently has been to say that Paul was not a real person and that the letters were written late in the 2nd century and not around 50-60 AD as all biblical scholars believe (and as all HJ posters here also say).

But as far as I'm concerned the date of Paul's letters is irrelevant. Because the content of the letters makes very clear that Paul had never known any human Jesus. Instead it's very clear from the letters that Paul says he got his Jesus beliefs entirely from what he thought was a divine revelation which explained to him the true meaning of messiah prophecy in ancient OT scriptures. And as far as all the other people he names in those letters, such as James and Peter (often called Cephas) and John, he only ever says that those people also knew Jesus through claiming similar divine visions.

So really, although Pauls' letters are probably far more more important than gospels for those who are trying to make a case for a real HJ, in fact those letters are really pretty strong evidence against anyone ever knowing a HJ … from those letters it's far more obvious that all of them knew Jesus only as a spiritual belief in divine revelation. So the letters really do not help the case for a HJ at all.

And for all the non-biblical sources that dejudge quotes – none of those could be considered remotely credible as evidence of a HJ, simply because in their only known “extant” form, they are afaik mostly around 1000 years after the time of Jesus (and that is waaaay too late to be credible as evidence at all).
 
So really, although Pauls' letters are probably far more more important than gospels for those who are trying to make a case for a real HJ, in fact those letters are really pretty strong evidence against anyone ever knowing a HJ … from those letters it's far more obvious that all of them knew Jesus only as a spiritual belief in divine revelation. So the letters really do not help the case for a HJ at all.

Nope.

Romans 1:3-4 - regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 9:4-5 - the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Galatians 4:4 - But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Galatians 1:19 - I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.
 
Nope.

Romans 1:3-4 - regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 9:4-5 - the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
You need to be careful when using freely translated texts:

1. "Who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" is "seed of David according to the flesh". Nothing about 'earthly life'.
2. "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah" is "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came]". Nothing about 'human ancestry'.

These both clearly describe an apparently earthly Jewish man, but key words like "earthly life" and "human ancestry" aren't in the text.
 
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You need to be careful when using freely translated texts:

1. "Who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" is "seed of David according to the flesh". Nothing about 'earthly life'.
2. "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah" is "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came]". Nothing about 'human ancestry'.

These both clearly describe an apparently earthly Jewish man, but key words like "earthly life" and "human ancestry" aren't in the text.

Regardless "seed of David" = human. The mythers may argue that Christians believed was not related to David because God fathered him and not Joseph. But Paul is quoting a pre-literary creed which states that Jesus was made the son of God at his resurrection.
 
Are there a few different arguments getting mixed up here?

Clearly some people thought of Jesus as a flesh and blood person, and some people thought of Jesus as ‘something else’ and the evidence that both ideas were in competition is the apologetic going ‘did he ever have flesh or not?’

But evidence that some Christians thought of Jesus as a person who had walked and preached, is not evidence that anyone who ever wrote about him ever spoke to him, even down a telephone game of oral tradition.

Just for clarity what grinds my gears is that there is no particular reason to suppose anything written in, say, the beatitudes, was ever said by anyone besides the guy who wrote that part of, Matthew was it? As a kid you have the assumption that the apostles were following the guy around taking notes, then you find out nobody knows whether anyone who met the guy ever wrote down anything at all. I’ve seen stuff describing the apostles as illiterate, and other stuff describing them as believing in JC because of reading scripture for evidence of what he would be like and what he’d do.

And it still looks like ‘the preaching of Peter’ was one of the earliest ‘word of god via JC’ things going around, well known enough to get into the apologetics closer to the time, and nobody managed to keep it.

I’m generally interested in what kind of later-became-NT (or later got cut from NT) stuff various early apologetics quote. They seem like the most... unfiltered? picture of what various early JC-Christian groups were about and where they were getting their stuff from.
 
Crikey, the reading comprehension and level of objective reasoning has really sunk to an all time low with this thread ...

... how do you know that quote "the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived" ? ... the biblical writing is your source for all that was ever said about Jesus, and it's that same biblical source that is telling you when he lived!! ... all your information is coming always from the bible!

Ever heard of a guy named Paul? Writing in the 50s, a few decades after Pilate?

In the supposed 6 or 7 original letters ... what did Paul say about Pilate?


I don't think you ever responded to, or answered, that question Jerrymander. So I will tell people here the answer since you clearly cannot or else do not want to … the answer is that we have discussed this before and afaik - there is no mention of Pilalte in the “genuine” letters.
 
Are there a few different arguments getting mixed up here?

Clearly some people thought of Jesus as a flesh and blood person, and some people thought of Jesus as ‘something else’ and the evidence that both ideas were in competition is the apologetic going ‘did he ever have flesh or not?’

But evidence that some Christians thought of Jesus as a person who had walked and preached, is not evidence that anyone who ever wrote about him ever spoke to him, even down a telephone game of oral tradition.

Just for clarity what grinds my gears is that there is no particular reason to suppose anything written in, say, the beatitudes, was ever said by anyone besides the guy who wrote that part of, Matthew was it? As a kid you have the assumption that the apostles were following the guy around taking notes, then you find out nobody knows whether anyone who met the guy ever wrote down anything at all. I’ve seen stuff describing the apostles as illiterate, and other stuff describing them as believing in JC because of reading scripture for evidence of what he would be like and what he’d do.

And it still looks like ‘the preaching of Peter’ was one of the earliest ‘word of god via JC’ things going around, well known enough to get into the apologetics closer to the time, and nobody managed to keep it.

I’m generally interested in what kind of later-became-NT (or later got cut from NT) stuff various early apologetics quote. They seem like the most... unfiltered? picture of what various early JC-Christian groups were about and where they were getting their stuff from.

There is an early church tradition that the "preaching of Peter" is what is called the gospel of Mark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis
The Elder used to say: Mark, in his capacity as Peter’s interpreter, wrote down accurately as many things as he recalled from memory—though not in an ordered form—of the things either said or done by the Lord. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him, but later, as I said, Peter, who used to give his teachings in the form of chreiai,[Notes 1] but had no intention of providing an ordered arrangement of the logia of the Lord. Consequently Mark did nothing wrong when he wrote down some individual items just as he related them from memory. For he made it his one concern not to omit anything he had heard or to falsify anything.
 
Nope.

Romans 1:3-4 - regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 9:4-5 - the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Galatians 4:4 - But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Galatians 1:19 - I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.


You are writing as if you think those quotes are new to us, as if we'd never noticed any of that before. But in fact, we have been through all those quotes at least 1000 times before; I mean literally 1000 times across the 12 years of quite vast HJ threads that I've been involved in.

In fact, I think we have just discussed all of those same biblical quotes here just in the last few pages. So constantly repeating them to us as if quotes from the bible must be true, is getting more like religious preaching in your posts.

But anyway - I just pointed out to you that many (if not most) biblical scholars now accept that king David was probably never a real person and was just an invented figure in OT religious mythology. So, Jesus, if he was real, could not have been a descendant of an imaginary king David.

Your quote from Romans-9 sounds even more like religious preaching. And it actually says that a believed human Jesus (who Paul had never known), is actually God! ... do you really think that God himself was walking about talking to people and preaching to them in 1st century Judea??

On Galatians-4 - I just explained to you, and showed you a YouTube film of biblical scholar John Huddleston explaining that in biblical times almost everyone who was regarded as important was claimed to be "born of a woman" but with God as the father ... did you know that? ... did you pay any attention to that? ... did you watch the video clip??
 
But anyway - I just pointed out to you that many (if not most) biblical scholars now accept that king David was probably never a real person and was just an invented figure in OT religious mythology. So, Jesus, if he was real, could not have been a descendant of an imaginary king David.

It doesn't matter if King David was real or not the point is Christians and Jews BELIEVED he was real AND human. So "seed of David" = human.

Your quote from Romans-9 sounds even more like religious preaching. And it actually says that a believed human Jesus (who Paul had never known), is actually God! ... do you really think that God himself was walking about talking to people and preaching to them in 1st century Judea??

rhetorical nonsense.

IanS;13143668On said:
Galatians-4 - I just explained to you, and showed you a YouTube film of biblical scholar John Huddleston explaining that in biblical times almost everyone who was regarded as important was claimed to be "born of a woman" but with God as the father ... did you know that? ... did you pay any attention to that? ... did you watch the video clip??

Yes, important HUMAN figures NOT cosmic beings or angels.
 
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I don't think you ever responded to, or answered, that question Jerrymander. So I will tell people here the answer since you clearly cannot or else do not want to … the answer is that we have discussed this before and afaik - there is no mention of Pilalte in the “genuine” letters.

Whether Paul mentions Pilate by name is irrelevant. Paul does believe Jesus was crucified which does not happen to cosmic spiritual beings.
 
Whether Paul mentions Pilate by name is irrelevant. Paul does believe Jesus was crucified which does not happen to cosmic spiritual beings.

What you believe is really irrelevant.


Christians in antiquity stated their Jesus the son of the Ghost and a Virgin was crucified, resurrected and ascended to heaven in a cloud.

Christian writers have already stated that their Christian religion ORIGINATED with God who came down from heaven.

Aristides Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel...

Please, you are wasting your time.

Christians told us exactly who their Jesus was.

You no historical evidence to contradict the beliefs of Jesus cult writers.


In the Bible Epistles Jesus is God Creator

Colossians
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him..

In the Bible Epistles Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.


Colossians 1.18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence..

Jesus was always a fiction character who was believed to have existed by Jesus cult Christians.
 
You need to be careful when using freely translated texts:

1. "Who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" is "seed of David according to the flesh". Nothing about 'earthly life'.
2. "Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah" is "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came]". Nothing about 'human ancestry'.

These both clearly describe an apparently earthly Jewish man, but key words like "earthly life" and "human ancestry" aren't in the text.

Bible Jesus was both God and man so it is really useless to use the Bible to prove Bible Jesus was only a man.

Complete waste of time.

Bible Jesus is the image of God, the firstborn of every creature.

Colossians 1.15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature...
 
Not quite “zilch evidence”. There is the evidence that the Jesus story began around the time when the real Jesus is meant to have lived. So, why then? .

That doesn't surprise me at all. The gospels were all written decades after the supposed Jesus lived. So these communities are popping up and saying, the guy was just here, and here are the stories.
 
What you believe is really irrelevant.


Christians in antiquity stated their Jesus the son of the Ghost and a Virgin was crucified, resurrected and ascended to heaven in a cloud.

Christian writers have already stated that their Christian religion ORIGINATED with God who came down from heaven.

Aristides Apology

Please, you are wasting your time.

Christians told us exactly who their Jesus was.

You no historical evidence to contradict the beliefs of Jesus cult writers.


In the Bible Epistles Jesus is God Creator

Colossians

In the Bible Epistles Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.


Colossians 1.18

Jesus was always a fiction character who was believed to have existed by Jesus cult Christians.

WOW! I didn't know Christians believed Jesus was Gad incarnate! Thank you so much to informing me!
 
That doesn't surprise me at all. The gospels were all written decades after the supposed Jesus lived. So these communities are popping up and saying, the guy was just here, and here are the stories.

What Tassman believes is completely irrelevant because he will never ever be able to produce any historical evidence to show that Bible Jesus really existed.

None whatsoever.

It is just absurd for people to use the Christian Bible to prove Bible Jesus was only a man when it is clearly stated Bible Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin without a human father.

Where will anyone find historical evidence that Jesus of Nazareth actually lived in the time of Pilate?
 
WOW! I didn't know Christians believed Jesus was Gad incarnate! Thank you so much to informing me!

Wow, you didn't know Jesus was God Incarnate, the Creator of heaven and earth in the Bible!!!

Ok, look at this!! Maybe you don't know the Bible says he was born of a Ghost and a Virgin.

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

I really don't know how you will be able to prove the son of the Ghost was really human by using the Christian Bible.

Perhaps you are the world's greatest magician.
 
Whether Paul mentions Pilate by name is irrelevant. Paul does believe Jesus was crucified which does not happen to cosmic spiritual beings.


His letters (supposed genuine) do not mention Pilate giving any order to crucify Jesus. So I'm just pointing out that there is none of that in those letters to state or imply when Paul thought "the Christ" had been upon the Earth ...

... there's nothing in Paul's letters that put any date on "the Christ".

Can we just be clear on whether or not you are a believing Christian. Because frankly you are posting like a fundamentalist (rather like those so called pre-suppusitionalist nut cases in the US).
 
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