Historical Jesus

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Everybody who has read the NT knows it is admitted Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin to fulfill so-called prophecy in Isaiah 7.14.
Like a cracked record you are.

Darat said:
We have a lot more evidence that Trump exists.
Sure we do, now. But what about in 2000 years time? Say there was a global nuclear war and all the known records were wiped, leaving only the memories of Trump supporters whose descendants started a religion based on him. Of course they puff up the stories to make him even more godly. So would future historians then be justified in saying that Trump definitely didn't exist?

Less evidence is not no evidence. The evidence in the Bible may be very poor, but it's still more than nothing. We need more than bare assertion to dismiss it. Where is the evidence that all the characters in the NT (and Paul too) were pure invention?

Seriously - show it to me. Hard evidence, not supposition and conjecture. Not 'read this book and you will get it'. And definitely not 'believe this anonymous internet poster who keeps parroting the same old crap over and over'. Because I am a skeptic, so that's what it will take to convince me that Jesus definitely didn't exist.
 
Like a cracked record you are.

Sure we do, now. But what about in 2000 years time? Say there was a global nuclear war and all the known records were wiped, leaving only the memories of Trump supporters whose descendants started a religion based on him. Of course they puff up the stories to make him even more godly. So would future historians then be justified in saying that Trump definitely didn't exist?

Less evidence is not no evidence. The evidence in the Bible may be very poor, but it's still more than nothing. We need more than bare assertion to dismiss it. Where is the evidence that all the characters in the NT (and Paul too) were pure invention?

Seriously - show it to me. Hard evidence, not supposition and conjecture. Not 'read this book and you will get it'. And definitely not 'believe this anonymous internet poster who keeps parroting the same old crap over and over'. Because I am a skeptic, so that's what it will take to convince me that Jesus definitely didn't exist.


You are reversing the burden of proof. The Jesus the Christians claim exists is a supernatural creature. You are the one claiming that we should probably believe that the supernatural Jesus was based on a real person. Therefore It is up to you to provide the evidence for that person not for me to prove he didn’t exist. Like I said given there is no evidence for such a person, and what we know about how religions come about we have no need for a historical Jesus to explain the origins of The various different Christianities that existed or exist today. Not only that it would be exceptional for such a person to be at the heart of a religion.

You need to provide evidence that a historical Jesus existed if you want to make the claim that he existed or “probably” existed.

As it stands we have no evidence nor any reason to suppose he ever existed.
 
to the point of creating misreading-based absurdities like coming into town on two donkeys.
We should be careful here. If it is such an obvious absurdity, why leave it in there? Surely it would be one the first things to edit out, before anybody read it and realized that such a howler proves the entire NT is poppycock?

We think we are so much smarter today than the peoples of that time, to the point where we can read a re-translated copy of a 2000 year old book and - without any real knowledge of the culture and context - instantly understand it better than them. No need for scholars and historians!
 
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You are reversing the burden of proof. The Jesus the Christians claim exists is a supernatural creature.
This argument is simply bogus. There are innumerable examples throughout history of real people being ascribed supernatural power by their followers. In no way does this prove they didn't exist. Yet somehow it's different for Jesus. I wonder why?

You are the one claiming that we should probably believe that the supernatural Jesus was based on a real person. Therefore It is up to you to provide the evidence for that person not for me to prove he didn’t exist.
I made no such claim. I just don't want to fall into the trap of stating as a fact something which is not proven.

we have no need for a historical Jesus to explain the origins of The various different Christianities that existed or exist today. Not only that it would be exceptional for such a person to be at the heart of a religion.
Please explain. What is so different about Jesus compared to all the people who were at the heart of a religion?
 
Nope.

People claim a god called Jesus lived 2000 years ago. Those people have no evidence for this.

Do you have any evidence?

I have plenty of evidence that multiple religious loons and wingnuts were wandering the area in question at the time. Floaty, boozy, miracle jesus, not so much.
 
Don't you know what is written in the NT about Jesus of Nazareth?

Everybody who has read the NT knows it is admitted Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin to fulfill so-called prophecy in Isaiah 7.14.
Sure we all do. The peurile attempts to ret-con the jesus story to fit prior "prophecy" is just daft. One only has to read the "magic" book to see that.
Why that bakes your noodle so much is, ironically, a mystery.


Donald Trump's father was Fred Trump but the father of Jesus was a Ghost.
OR mary was a slut and lost count and ended up in the family way, and glommed onto the easiest excuse, which is far more likely. Out of the four gospels there are two genealogies of jesus. Neither agree, but both end with joe being the father of jesus. But joe was not the father of jesus, was he? (or so it is claimed). As for the trinity? That is the absent father, the ordained rapist and the bastard. How pleasant.

Bible family values my butt.

Yet here we all are with 2,000 years worth of pointless christianity.

2,000 years of intellect wasted on messed up arguments that go nowhere, yet still they persist.

Clearly, this mythology must have started at some point. But where, when and by whom?

According to dejudge, nobody nowhere at no time. There was no jesus, peter, paul, any of them. Great, so who or what started christianity? We know it has existed for some 2,000 years so how did it happen absent those founding figures? Any idea? Because dejudge is oddly silent on the matter, apparently preferring to hurl insults at all and sundry.
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
 
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We should be careful here. If it is such an obvious absurdity, why leave it in there? Surely it would be one the first things to edit out, before anybody read it and realized that such a howler proves the entire NT is poppycock?

We think we are so much smarter today than the peoples of that time, to the point where we can read a re-translated copy of a 2000 year old book and - without any real knowledge of the culture and context - instantly understand it better than them. No need for scholars and historians!

“If it is so stupid, why did they leave it in there?” This is an incredibly weak argument. To me it’s clearly a ‘howler’ but you can read literally hundreds of apologetics on why it makes total sense. They’re only compelling if you’re looking to give Matthew an out. Believers are perfectly willing to either handwave or swallow it.

My point there is that it’s there, with all it’s face-value absurdity, specifically because the author was trying so hard to tie the story in to existing scripture. The apologetics for how dumb it looks cite that reason for why it’s in there like that.
 
........ MJ literally has a founder going ‘I only ever heard of the guy in a divine revalation,’ and a story created by quote mining the OT, to the point of creating misreading-based absurdities like coming into town on two donkeys.

Which "founder" are you talking about? The "founder" who persecuted those who preached the faith before him? The last one to see the resurrected Jesus after over 500 persons!!! There were thousands of believers before the "founder"!!

It is most obvious that if Jesus did live as was called Christ and had followers then he would be founder of the Jesus cult of Christians not the authors of Epistles

The authors of the Pauline Epistles claimed that his Jesus Christ was already dead and that he persecuted the followers of the resurrected Christ.

The authors of the Pauline Epistles found nothing but fiction stories about Jesus and after having Saul/Paul's conversion fabricated by a bright light pretended they had revelations.

The authors of the Pauline Epistles have been found to be liars.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_against_hierocles.htm

Eusebius "Against Hierocles"
And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who were liars...

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/porphyry_against_christians_02_fragments.htm
Porphyry Against Christianity
We conclude then that he is a liar and manifestly brought up in an atmosphere of lying...

The NT Pauline Epistles were known to be a pack of lies for at least 1600 years.

The so-called Pauline Epistles were written no earlier than the late 2nd century by multiple anonymous authors using a fictitious name.
 
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Uh? Sure man, I’m no expert, I’m just referring to that letter or whatever with the very influential guy going ‘I never met JC except in this vision where God was like check this out.’

What shorthand would you prefer for that?

Look, clearly I’m short on information. Are we saying we have evidence that there were already JC followers before ‘paul’ and that he persecuted them? Is the ‘paul’ stuff meant to be later than the Justin Martyr stuff?

Is the idea that someone else created the JC character and ‘paul’ took it over and turned it towards becoming modern Christianity?
 
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Uh? Sure man, I’m no expert, I’m just referring to that letter or whatever with the very influential guy going ‘I never met JC except in this vision where God was like check this out.’

What shorthand would you prefer for that?

Which guy was very influential? When was he influential? In the forgeries to Seneca!!!!

Aristides in the time of Hadrian c 117-138 CE claimed it was the twelve disciples who preached the Gospel to the whole world. See Aristides Apology.

Justin in the time of Antoninus c 138-161 CE claimed it was the twelve illiterate disciples from Jerusalem who preached the Gospel to every race of men. See Justin's Dialogue with Trypho.

Celsus c 178 CE in "True Discourse" wrote nothing about Paul. See Against Celsus attributed to Origen,

Arnobius in the 3rd century wrote that it was the twelve disciple who preached the Gospel to the world. See Arnobius "Against the Heathen".

The so-called Paul and Epistles were unknown and had no influence on the beliefs of early Jesus cults up to at least the late 2nd century.


Look, clearly I’m short on information. Are we saying we have evidence that there were already JC followers before ‘paul’ and that he persecuted them? Is the ‘paul’ stuff meant to be later than the Justin Martyr stuff?

Is the idea that someone else created the JC character and ‘paul’ took it over and turned it towards becoming modern Christianity?

You don't have to be an expert to read the NT and apologetic sources

Are you saying that there is evidence of Saul/Paul writing Epistles before the second century?

The author of the Epistles did claim he persecuted the faith that he presently preached.

If the author of the Epistles persecuted Jesus cult Christians then that could not have happened before the 2nd century.

The authors of the so-called Pauline Epistles did place themselves after there were already believers and apostles of NT Christ.

NT Christ is a 2nd century invention.

The author of Acts claimed that after the preaching of Peter there were thousands of Jewish converts before Saul/Paul's conversion was fabricated by a bright light and the faceless voice.

Christian writers even claimed Peter went to evangelise Rome in the 2nd year of Claudius or about 20 years before their Paul went there in bonds when Festus was governor.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm
De Viris Illustribus
Simon Peter the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion — the believers in circumcision, in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia — pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus...

The authors called Paul were late inventions and all without a shred of history.

I don't know how anyone will be able to show that the so-called Paul ever existed and actually wrote Epistles to Jesus cult Churches [which did not exist].
 
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Sure we do, now. But what about in 2000 years time? Say there was a global nuclear war and all the known records were wiped, leaving only the memories of Trump supporters whose descendants started a religion based on him. Of course they puff up the stories to make him even more godly. So would future historians then be justified in saying that Trump definitely didn't exist?

Your example sucks bigly.

There was no global nuclear war which wiped out all the records in the 1st century and it didn't take 2000 years to fabricate stories about the Son of a Ghost.

It is believed by some that the stories about the son of the Ghost were written within 30 years after the Ghost resurrected and that the so-called Paul preached about the resurrected son of God within perhaps 5 years after the Ghost ascended to heaven in a cloud.

Less evidence is not no evidence. The evidence in the Bible may be very poor, but it's still more than nothing. We need more than bare assertion to dismiss it. Where is the evidence that all the characters in the NT (and Paul too) were pure invention?

Where is the evidence for things which do not exist?

You will never see any evidence for things which did not exist.

You must have seen the non-existing hard evidence for unicorns.:jaw-dropp


Seriously - show it to me. Hard evidence, not supposition and conjecture. Not 'read this book and you will get it'. And definitely not 'believe this anonymous internet poster who keeps parroting the same old crap over and over'. Because I am a skeptic, so that's what it will take to convince me that Jesus definitely didn't exist.

If you look real hard you might eventually see the evidence for nothing.
 
We should be careful here. If it is such an obvious absurdity, why leave it in there? Surely it would be one the first things to edit out, before anybody read it and realized that such a howler proves the entire NT is poppycock?

We think we are so much smarter today than the peoples of that time, to the point where we can read a re-translated copy of a 2000 year old book and - without any real knowledge of the culture and context - instantly understand it better than them. No need for scholars and historians!


Actually since we can all read it is a fact that we can better understand things that most people for the entire history of humanity could.

Remember there was a reason why the winners of “Christianity knock down” for hundreds and hundreds of years worked very hard to ensure the “common man” could not read the bible, nor even follow the rituals beyond a few rote responses in the right places.
 
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This argument is simply bogus. There are innumerable examples throughout history of real people being ascribed supernatural power by their followers. In no way does this prove they didn't exist. Yet somehow it's different for Jesus. I wonder why?

I made no such claim. I just don't want to fall into the trap of stating as a fact something which is not proven.

Please explain. What is so different about Jesus compared to all the people who were at the heart of a religion?


Again you are trying to avoid the burden of proof for your claims
. You want us to accept that there was or it was “probable” there was a Jesus historical guy the early Christians hung their tales of supernatural on, therefore it is up to you to provide the evidence.

And we are not talking about people that we have evidence they existed who subsequently had supernatural spin and hype attached to them, for example Mother Theresa we are talking about what I’ve been calling the “foundational character “ of a religion, that is the supernatural entity at the heart of a religion’s doctrines and beliefs. Time and time again when we look we find they were simple claimed to have existed by the actual originator of the religion. So for the Scientologist it is Xenu, for the likes of Smith it was the angel Moroni and his ethereal entities.

To further illustrate this, we know life can exist in the universe so do we have to give credibility to the claims of Hubbard because an alien called Xenu could have existed? You will laugh this off but that is exactly what you are asking us to do when you claim it is probable that there was a bloke called Jesus who started Christianity.
 
I have plenty of evidence that multiple religious loons and wingnuts were wandering the area in question at the time. Floaty, boozy, miracle jesus, not so much.


Yes, and we know that several eventually melded together to form what we now know as the RC and Eastern Orthodox churches.

But we are talking about the claim that there was in fact a historical Jesus bod those subsequent people used as the base for their weird and whacky religions.

Problem is that that we have no evidence that such a person ever existed.
 
Uh? Sure man, I’m no expert, I’m just referring to that letter or whatever with the very influential guy going ‘I never met JC except in this vision where God was like check this out.’

What shorthand would you prefer for that?

Look, clearly I’m short on information. Are we saying we have evidence that there were already JC followers before ‘paul’ and that he persecuted them? Is the ‘paul’ stuff meant to be later than the Justin Martyr stuff?

Is the idea that someone else created the JC character and ‘paul’ took it over and turned it towards becoming modern Christianity?


Unless we unearth some more evidence the actual origins of what we now call Christianity is going to remain unknown. We can piece together bits and pieces of its history.

My unevidenced view is that there was probably a single charismatic bloke who could be credited with starting Christianity as that seems to be a common denominator of all the religions we have evidence for how they were created. We also know most new religions don’t survive the death of their originator as they often schism at that point and and/or peter out.

For anyone looking to gain an understanding of how religions start I would suggest looking at the USA in the 19th century, there were literally dozens of new religions that popped up, but less than a handful survive to today. It is fascinating learning about the personal dynamics, the schisms, the cries of heresy, the takeover of a religion started by one person by another. When you start reading all that you soon realise that there is probably no way today of being able to reconstruct the actual events that lead to the Christianity we see from around the 3rd century.
 
OK, nevermind for a moment the misuse of the word "foundational" for religions/pantheons that don't contain any characters that are really the "foundation" of it all, and focusing instead on just the thing about gods being made up...

What's the evidence that, for example, belief in Zeus originated one day long ago with somebody suddenly just making up Zeus, in a culture where there had never before been any stories mentioning a "Zeus" character, and then a bunch of people who'd never heard of Zeus before suddenly believed that person's brand-new Zeus claims anyway?


I have explained to you before (just a couple of pages back), that it does not have to be "belief in Zeus originated one day long ago with somebody suddenly just making up Zeus". When you make statements like that it sounds just like the religious creationists who cannot understand the huge tracts of time and the very slow changes that cause evolution and where they hence deny human evolution by saying "so one day a monkey just gave birth to a human??" ...

... you are doing the same thing, talking as if the only option for a mythical Jesus would be for one individual to completely invent the entire idea of a Christ-Jesus at one specific moment on one particular day. But that is not what anyone sensible is suggesting …

… by the time that the Jesus stories were being preached, Jews in that region, and indeed people everywhere, had already believed in all manner of supernatural miracle-working gods for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years. The stories and beliefs of what those gods, angels, demons, devils etc. could do had evolved and multiplied over vast tracts of time.

Jews in that region of Judea had already believed OT prophets who had received the words of Yahweh with the promise of a saviour Christ since at leat 600BC if not 1000BC! And they had all sorts of beliefs about how and when that would happen. By the time of the Essen community about 200BC around Qumran and the Dead Sea (which is just 20 miles from Jerusalem) there was already a large community of highly religious Jews writing the Dead Sea Scrolls recording their belief in Yahweh's promise fulfilled by an apocalyptic preaching messiah who would be, or already had been, sent to Earth to warn the faithful to gather in readiness for God's final days of apocalypse.

As I have pointed out in the last several posts, there are obvious parallels with the religious content of the Scrolls and what Paul believed & wrote in his letters as much as 300 years later! So that was all in place, all those sort of apocalyptic Christ beliefs preached in that region long before any letters or gospels of the New Testament. The Scrolls even describe a regular ritual supper of bread and wine as symbolic recognition of the “truth” of their messiah beliefs. And there were apparently other Jewish groups preaching different variations of that sort of apocalyptic Christ on the streets of Judea by that time ie circa 250BC all the way through to about 100AD …

… so it's obvious with that background how preachers and believers in that region could easily come to accept and preach a story of Yehoshua as the prophesied apocalyptical messiah.

I'm not saying that the Dead SeaScrolls and the beliefs therein had to be the direct predecessor of the gospels and letters that formed what became called “Christianity”, but what I am saying is that unlike the gospels and letters and all the references to non-biblical writing such as Tacitus, Josephus, Justin Martyr, Philo etc., where all of those are know only from much later copies and with no original writing at all for us to examine, the Scrolls by complete contrast are the original writing, and they do date back to hundreds of years before any of that later copyist writing, and they do set out in detail the religious beliefs of one large sect of Jews in that same specific small region, and those views are very similar to what was written centuries later by “Paul” in the letters … and you can check those earlier links to see what all the quite obvious similarities are.
 
You can extend that idea, again by looking at the origins of the many religions we do have evidence for their origins.

To go back to Smith, he built on and edited the already existing religious beliefs of his times and place, he didn't create his religion from thin air.

Ive even documented where one of the most original of modern religions, scientology can be shown to have nicked its original ideas from.

Religions always reflect their culture and society.

And another queation for some to consider, is Smith's Jesus based on an historical Jesus?
 
People claim a god called Jesus lived 2000 years ago. Those people have no evidence for this.

There is no evidence that Jesus’ contemporaries claimed he was "a god" 2000 years ago. But it is reasonable to assume that some sort of charismatic figure existed who attracted followers. The deification came later as the church councils, such as Council of Nicaea in 325, argued about what sort of divine nature he had. There is no doubting that he had become ‘divine’ by this time, whatever he was thought to be beforehand.

Do you have any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence of Christianity flourishing by the 4th century when the emperor Constantine made it the official Roman religion. Clearly there were sufficient numbers of Christians around for this to have been a realistic proposition – especially as his intention was to use Christianity to unite the empire under one god.
 
There is no evidence that Jesus’ contemporaries claimed he was "a god" 2000 years ago. ....snip...

That would be because there is no evidence of a historical Jesus existing! Which is pretty much the entire point of this thread.... :)
 
To go back to Smith, he built on and edited the already existing religious beliefs of his times and place, he didn't create his religion from thin air.

Joseph Smith was a notorious charlatan and convicted felon – he would have declared Tinkerbell an angel if it had served his purpose.

Ive even documented where one of the most original of modern religions, scientology can be shown to have nicked its original ideas from.

I think L Ron Hubbard “nicked his ideas” from science fiction. Scientology was only proclaimed a religion for tax purposes AFAICT.

Religions always reflect their culture and society.

True. They are essentially tribal.

And another queation for some to consider, is Smith's Jesus based on an historical Jesus?

Smith's Jesus is based on the “Jesus” of an evolved religion.
 
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