Historical Jesus

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I have given the names of several scholars and provided quotes, e.g. classicist scholar and atheist Michael Grant 2004: "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Your only response throughout has been your unsupported bald assertions: “Jesus, the Son of the Ghost has no historical evidence”. “NT Jesus never ever existed”. “Jesus and Paul are fiction”.


You are doing what most sceptics on this site have warned against hundreds of times in these threads – you are again producing the well known fallacy of “an appeal to authority”. And iirc, you are constantly doing that in almost every post you make here.

It's fine appealing to people who are supposed to be authorities, but you have to quote the evidence which those authoritaties are claiming as their means of reaching their conclusion … you are quoting Michael Grant, but you say not one word of what he is claiming as evidence in order to conclude Jesus existed …

… what is the evidence that you have from Michael Grant that convinces you that Jesus existed?


And by the way, in case people do not know who Michael Grant is, here is a Wiki link to his details -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Grant_(classicist)

Michael Grant*CBE*(21 November 1914 – 4 October 2004) was an English*classicist,*numismatist, and author of numerous books on ancient history.[1]*His 1956 translation of*Tacitus's*Annals of Imperial Rome*remains a standard of the work. Having studied and held a number of academic posts in the United Kingdom and the Middle East, he retired early to devote himself fully to writing.

Grant was born in London, the son of Col. Maurice Grant who served in the*Boer War*and later wrote part of its official history. Young Grant attended*Harrow*and read classics (1933–37) at*Trinity College, Cambridge. His speciality was academic*numismatics. His research fellowship thesis later became his first published book –*From Imperium to Auctoritas*(1946), on Roman bronze coins. Over the next decade he wrote four books on Roman coinage; his view was that the tension between the eccentricity of the Roman emperors and the traditionalism of the Roman mint made coins (used as both propaganda and currency) a unique social record.

As early as the 1950s, Grant's publishing success was somewhat controversial within the classicist community. According to*The Times: Grant's approach to classical history was beginning to divide critics. Numismatists felt that his academic work was beyond reproach, but some academics balked at his attempt to condense a survey of Roman literature into 300 pages, and felt (in the words of one reviewer) that "even the most learned and gifted of historians should observe a speed-limit". The academics would keep cavilling, but the public kept buying.[4]




I'm not saying that Grant is unqualified or a sensation seeker or a charlatan. But what you can see from the above is that his main field of expertise was Roman coins, and on other historical subjects he was regarded as a rather sensationalist writer who perhaps appealed more to popular opinion/readership and was criticised on that basis by his fellow classicists.

But if you think Michael Grant grant is someone who's opinion we should all heed, then what was he offering as the evidence that makes him (and you) think Jesus existed?
 
I have given the names of several scholars and provided quotes, e.g. classicist scholar and atheist Michael Grant 2004: "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Your only response throughout has been your unsupported bald assertions: “Jesus, the Son of the Ghost has no historical evidence”. “NT Jesus never ever existed”. “Jesus and Paul are fiction”.

Again, you post more amnesia or dishonesty.

My argument that Jesus was the son of a Ghost is found in sources of antiquity.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Aristides Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel.....

Justin's First Apology LXXVIII
And Joseph, the spouse of Mary, who wished at first to put away his betrothed Mary, supposing her to be pregnant by intercourse with a man, i.e., from fornication, was commanded in a vision not to put away his wife; and the angel who appeared to him told him that what is in her womb is of the Holy Ghost.


Irenaeus' Against Heresies XXIII
And for this reason it was, that when Joseph became aware that Mary was with child, and was minded to put her away privily, the angel said to him in sleep: "Fear not to take to thee Mary thy wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Ignatius Ephesians
For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ
As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.


Origen's Against Celsus
..... let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost....



Eusebius' Church History
This James was called the brother of the Lord because he was known as a son of Joseph, and Joseph was supposed to be the father of Christ, because the Virgin, being betrothed to him, was found with child by the Holy Ghost before they came together, as the account of the holy Gospels shows.


Jesus of Nazareth was a fiction character, the son of a Ghost, without any history.

Jesus never ever existed.

Michael Grant's Jesus is a fiction character without history and pulled from the orifices of NT authors.
 
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The nativity scenes in gMatthew and gLuke contradict one another and cannot be reconciled.

Marcion's gLuke lacked the birth story. It was likely added by a Catholic redactor mid 2nd century to make the gLuke suitable for orthodox use. In short, there is no history in the birth story of gLuke.

Since gMark lacked a birth story it was unknown to him. So gMatthew invented one. Again there is no history there that can be shown to apply to a real dude named Jesus.

When we know the gospel writers were writing large amounts of fiction we cannot assume they also contain historical truth about some guy named Jesus.





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Hardly controversial. It is quite plain that the anonymous gospel authors bashed the nativity crapfest every which way to beyond absurdity. Same thing happens with the resurrection tales. None of them agree either. Not to mention the genealogy of jesus fiasco.
 
The notebooks of the faithful would not be sufficient to prove the veracity of JC's exploits. You would have to have a copy of His personal diary as well. How else would we know about the facts of what the Devil said to Him and His responses?
Luke 4:1-13 for example?
An interesting passage that presents the god botherers with a long list of questions. Been down that road and eventually, you end up with "mysterious ways" as though that explains anything.

It is akin to the claim that Moses wrote the first five books including describing his own death and burial. Quite the unlikely feat.

The most useful response to the jesus/devil in the desert crap is to ask...
What exactly did the devil tempt jesus with?
jesus is supposed to be god almighty. Bread tempts him? Ruling over the countries he created tempts him? Flying scares him? Really?

The whole account is absurd. "I can give you all of these lands" says the devil. "I already own them says god". How much of a temptation is that?

What would you say if I came to your home and told you that if you bowed before me, I would gift you the widescreen TV that is in your living room right now?
 
Jesus, the disciples and Paul were all obvious lies and inventions. They never ever existed.
No matter how many times you assert that, it doesn't make it true. It doesn't matter how much of the NT is made up, it still doesn't prove that a historical Jesus didn't exist.

Before you can dismiss it entirely, you have to explain why the NT authors felt it necessary to invent a story about a man, and then retrofit godly powers onto him (as is clear from an unbiased reading of the NT). The obvious reason is that they didn't invent him, because the tradition already existed - IOW their predecessors also believed Jesus was the founder of Christianty. Why? Because he (or someone) almost certainly was.

I think your big mistake is in not understanding the culture of the times. If anyone today insisted their church was started by a god in human form, and wrote a book about him that was full of supernatural nonsense, we would rightly scoff. But back then, in that society, it was expected. That is why the NT authors (and those before them) would have gone to such lengths to make the real leader out to be more than he was.

If you want to convince us that the NT authors made up Jesus out of whole cloth, you need more than just a lack of evidence for his existence outside the NT. You need to show evidence that they did not base their writings on any earlier tradition, or you need to provide a reasonable explanation for why they had to make it up.

But if you just keep harping on about "the obvious lies in the NT prove that Jesus never existed" then you are going to look a fool if some evidence turns up. It wouldn't be the first time that a myth turned out to have some basis in fact.
 
You are doing what most sceptics on this site have warned against hundreds of times in these threads – you are again producing the well known fallacy of “an appeal to authority”.

you have to quote the evidence which those authoritaties are claiming as their means of reaching their conclusion

I am specifically responding to dejudge’s unsupported bald assertion repeated ad nauseam, that “NT Jesus never ever existed” - end of argument. My only point is that the majority consensus of NT scholars believe that he did – albeit if not the wonder-man Jesus of the NT. In short, those in a better position to know than dejudge say that he’s wrong. I think it would be pointless go any further at this stage given that his mind is already very clearly made up.
 
I am specifically responding to dejudge’s unsupported bald assertion repeated ad nauseam, that “NT Jesus never ever existed” - end of argument. My only point is that the majority consensus of NT scholars believe that he did – albeit if not the wonder-man Jesus of the NT. In short, those in a better position to know than dejudge say that he’s wrong. I think it would be pointless go any further at this stage given that his mind is already very clearly made up.


But that was not the point. Not the point by a very long way!

The point is that you are constantly appealing to the claimed "authority" of biblical scholars. But (a) that is a well known fallacy, ie simply not valid as a way of deciding that you are right, and (b) you are never telling us what evidence you think they are producing to claim Jesus was real ....

... what is their evidence?

… what evidence do you think they have to show us that Jesus was real??
 
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the people you're referring to are not actually authoritative on the subject.
 
Yes, and he just pointed out the cited guy’s main expertise is about the coinage of Roman antiquity. He just also likes to pontificate about the other stuff. Other scholars say those pontifications are basically pop-arch piffle. That’s practically a textbook example.
 
No matter how many times you assert that, it doesn't make it true. It doesn't matter how much of the NT is made up, it still doesn't prove that a historical Jesus didn't exist.

No matter what you say cannot contradict my argument that Jesus , the disciples and Paul did not exist.

Jesus was the son of a Ghost so he could not have had any chosen disciples and Paul could not have seen the disciples and the resurrected Jesus.

The NT is a compilation of fiction, forgeries and false attribution with zero historical value with respect to Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

Before you can dismiss it entirely, you have to explain why the NT authors felt it necessary to invent a story about a man, and then retrofit godly powers onto him (as is clear from an unbiased reading of the NT). The obvious reason is that they didn't invent him, because the tradition already existed - IOW their predecessors also believed Jesus was the founder of Christianty. Why? Because he (or someone) almost certainly was.

I don't have to make up stories of Jesus they are found in the NT. Jesus was a water-walking, transfiguring, resurrecting, ascending, Son of a Ghost and God Creator from the beginning,.

Jesus never ever existed. Jesus never ever had any history.

The founder of the city of Rome was born of a Ghost [Romulus].
The founder of the Roman Catholicism was born of a Ghost. [Jesus]

People in Rome believed Ghosts [apparitions] existed and could impregnate virgins.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/romulus.html

Plutarch Romulus
There was an oracle of Tethys in Tuscany which Tarchetius consulted, and received an answer that a virgin should give herself to the apparition, and that a son should be born of her, highly renowned, eminent for valour, good fortune, and strength of body.

Tarchetius told the prophecy to one of his own daughters, and commanded her to do this thing....

Like Jesus, when Romulus supposedly died his body vanished and day turned into night.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/romulus.html

whereas Romulus, when he vanished, left neither the least part of his body, nor any remnant of his clothes to be seen. ............................ the face of the sun was darkened, and the day turned into night....

Romulus appeared as a Ghost after he was dead and before he ascended to heaven.

.........Julius Proculus by name, presented himself in the forum; and, taking a most sacred oath, protested before them all, that, as he was travelling on the road, he had seen Romulus coming to meet him, looking taller and comelier than ever, dressed in shining and flaming armour; and he, being affrighted at the apparition, said, "Why, O king, or for what purpose have you abandoned us to unjust and wicked surmises, and the whole city to bereavement and endless sorrow?" and that he made answer, "It pleased the gods, O Proculus, that we, who came from them, should remain so long a time amongst men as we did; and, having built a city to be the greatest in the world for empire and glory, should again return to heaven.

But farewell; and tell the Romans, that, by the exercise of temperance and fortitude, they shall attain the height of human power; we will be to you the propitious god Quirinus." This seemed credible to the Romans..........


The Jesus character is really similar to the myth Romulus.


I think your big mistake is in not understanding the culture of the times. If anyone today insisted their church was started by a god in human form, and wrote a book about him that was full of supernatural nonsense, we would rightly scoff. But back then, in that society, it was expected. That is why the NT authors (and those before them) would have gone to such lengths to make the real leader out to be more than he was.

You don't know what your are talking about.

The Jesus story is total fiction. It is just total nonsense that Jews would worship a dead crucified criminal as the Messiah of the Jews.

The Jews were looking for a living Messianic Ruler to rule the known Universe not a dead scarcely known preacher.

If Jesus was not known as the Messiah of the Jews when he was alive then it would be virtually impossible for him to be called the Jewish Messianic ruler when he was dead.

Simon Bar Cocheba was regarded as a Messianic ruler of the Jews until he was captured and killed by the Roman c 133 CE.

If you want to convince us that the NT authors made up Jesus out of whole cloth, you need more than just a lack of evidence for his existence outside the NT. You need to show evidence that they did not base their writings on any earlier tradition, or you need to provide a reasonable explanation for why they had to make it up.

You will never ever be able to present evidence to show that there was an HJ.


But if you just keep harping on about "the obvious lies in the NT prove that Jesus never existed" then you are going to look a fool if some evidence turns up. It wouldn't be the first time that a myth turned out to have some basis in fact.

Well, well, welll!!!! I am glad you talk about looking like a fool!! What do you call those who argue for an HJ when no evidence has turned up for at least 2000 years?

People have been looking like fools for thousands of years.

Jesus is coming soon!!!

Look for the scars in his hands, feet and side.
 
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An interesting passage that presents the god botherers with a long list of questions. Been down that road and eventually, you end up with "mysterious ways" as though that explains anything.

It is akin to the claim that Moses wrote the first five books including describing his own death and burial. Quite the unlikely feat.

The most useful response to the jesus/devil in the desert crap is to ask...
What exactly did the devil tempt jesus with?
jesus is supposed to be god almighty. Bread tempts him? Ruling over the countries he created tempts him? Flying scares him? Really?

The whole account is absurd. "I can give you all of these lands" says the devil. "I already own them says god". How much of a temptation is that?

What would you say if I came to your home and told you that if you bowed before me, I would gift you the widescreen TV that is in your living room right now?


The absurdity of the whole exchange just screams at you doesn't it? The typical response from the faithful when confronted with it is a garbled "Jesus was man at the time although yes he was God also", sort of thing. Christians have struggled with this trinity BS from the beginning, to explain why Jesus prayed to his father in the garden and then on the cross. Some say Jesus started of as a man and became part of God later but the RCC say he was always there from the beginning.
 
The absurdity of the whole exchange just screams at you doesn't it? The typical response from the faithful when confronted with it is a garbled "Jesus was man at the time although yes he was God also", sort of thing. Christians have struggled with this trinity BS from the beginning, to explain why Jesus prayed to his father in the garden and then on the cross. Some say Jesus started of as a man and became part of God later but the RCC say he was always there from the beginning.

They had to make him a god so that he could compete with the other gods around. Jesus being just another prophet wasn't good enough. Even the Caesars claimed to be descended from gods, so Jesus had to descend from God, too. Hence the story of the conception from "a ghost", as dejudge calls it. So much of the NT has all the appearances of ad hoc retrofitting and post hoc rationalization. Did some other god raise someone from the dead? Well Jesus did that, too! In spades! Does the old prophecies say that the Messiah would come from Betlehem? Ah...umm... well, actually, the romans had this big census, you see... (we know the rest).

But here's my question: doesn't all that retrofitting sort of point to there being an underlying reality to it? Someone not a god made into a god, someone from Nazareth moved to Betlehem, someone dead resurrected, a not all that remarkable wannabe Messiah turned into the real deal.
 
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But here's my question: doesn't all that retrofitting sort of point to there being an underlying reality to it? Someone not a god made into a god, someone from Nazareth moved to Betlehem, someone dead resurrected, a not all that remarkable wannabe Messiah turned into the real deal.

Except Paul wrote first. And for Paul Christ Jesus was a pre-existant divine being.

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They had to make him a god so that he could compete with the other gods around. Jesus being just another prophet wasn't good enough. Even the Caesars claimed to be descended from gods, so Jesus had to descend from God, too. Hence the story of the conception from "a ghost", as dejudge calls it. So much of the NT has all the appearances of ad hoc retrofitting and post hoc rationalization. Did some other god raise someone from the dead? Well Jesus did that, too! In spades! Does the old prophecies say that the Messiah would come from Betlehem? Ah...umm... well, actually, the romans had this big census, you see... (we know the rest).

There is no ad hoc retrofitting and post hoc rationalization of the Jesus story.

It was just fiction after fiction.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy of the supposed Jesus being born in Bethlehem in the time of Herod the Great.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy that the supposed Jesus would be born of a Ghost and a Virgin in the time of Pilate.

Writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius specifically stated that based on Hebrew Scripture the Jews expected their prophesied Messianic ruler at around c 66-70 CE [not 27-37 CE -not in the time of Pilate.]

There was no prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler in the 1st century.

If Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was crucified before he was regarded as a Messianic ruler then it is virtually impossible for him to be regarded as the prophesied Messianic ruler when he was already dead.

The Jews were not looking in graveyards for their prophesied Messianic ruler.

The Jesus stories are all total propaganda in an attempt to blame the Jews for the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

But here's my question: doesn't all that retrofitting sort of point to there being an underlying reality to it? Someone not a god made into a god, someone from Nazareth moved to Betlehem, someone dead resurrected, a not all that remarkable wannabe Messiah turned into the real deal.

An unknown Jewish Messiah??

Please!!! This is the sort of nonsense that is propagated by HJers to explain why non-apologetic sources did not mention Jesus of Nazareth.

If nobody knew Jesus was the prophesied Messianic ruler of the Jews when he was alive then he could not be regarded as a Messiah after death.

The War of the Jews c 66-70 CE was fought because the Jews believed their prophesied Messianic ruler would emerge at that time and conquer the Roman Empire.


War of the Jews 6.5.4
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth."

The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination......

The writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have destroyed the NT.

Jesus the prophesied Jewish Messiah never ever existed at all.
 
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But that was not the point. Not the point by a very long way!

Well it is the only point being made.

The point is that you are constantly appealing to the claimed "authority" of biblical scholars. But (a) that is a well known fallacy, ie simply not valid as a way of deciding that you are right, and (b) you are never telling us what evidence you think they are producing to claim Jesus was real ....

As has been commented upon: “the appeal to authority” is only a fallacy if those appealed to are not authorities". If you don’t like the authority I referenced then Prof. Bart Ehrman is another (I could give you a long list): Ehrman (an atheist agnostic) wrote: "He [Jesus] certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".

... what is their evidence?

… what evidence do you think they have to show us that Jesus was real??

I’m not a biblical scholar nor religious. But the majority of reputable scholars are of the view that the man Jesus existed in the flesh. I am not qualified to assess the evidence, but it behooves us to accept the expertise of those who are so qualified. We do in every other field of professional expertise.
 
Well it is the only point being made.







As has been commented upon: “the appeal to authority” is only a fallacy if those appealed to are not authorities". If you don’t like the authority I referenced then Prof. Bart Ehrman is another (I could give you a long list): Ehrman (an atheist agnostic) wrote: "He [Jesus] certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees". .

And you consider Erhman's appeal to imaginary sources scholarly?



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....I’m not a biblical scholar nor religious. But the majority of reputable scholars are of the view that the man Jesus existed in the flesh. I am not qualified to assess the evidence, but it behooves us to accept the expertise of those who are so qualified. We do in every other field of professional expertise.

Again, you suffer from amnesia or dishonesty.

1. All Scholars do not agree that Jesus was a figure of history.

2. Many Bible Scholars worship Jesus as God.

3. Many Bible Scholars preach that Jesus was born of a Virgin.

4. Many Bible Scholars accept the NT as the word of God.

5. Many Bible Scholars are pastors and Bishops of Christian Churches.

6. Many Bible Scholars pray to the resurrected Jesus for their salvation and wait for his coming to go to heaven.

This is a partial list of Bible Scholars of Christian Churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_biblical_scholars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglican_biblical_scholars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baptist_biblical_scholars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lutheran_biblical_scholars


The supposed HJ is fundamentally a product of Christian belief and teachings of the Church -never ever a product of history.

No-one is behooved to accept the beliefs of Christians as evidence for an HJ.
 
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There is no ad hoc retrofitting and post hoc rationalization of the Jesus story.

It was just fiction after fiction.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy of the supposed Jesus being born in Bethlehem in the time of Herod the Great.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy that the supposed Jesus would be born of a Ghost and a Virgin in the time of Pilate.

Writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius specifically stated that based on Hebrew Scripture the Jews expected their prophesied Messianic ruler at around c 66-70 CE [not 27-37 CE -not in the time of Pilate.]

There was no prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler in the 1st century.

If Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was crucified before he was regarded as a Messianic ruler then it is virtually impossible for him to be regarded as the prophesied Messianic ruler when he was already dead.

The Jews were not looking in graveyards for their prophesied Messianic ruler.

The Jesus stories are all total propaganda in an attempt to blame the Jews for the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.



An unknown Jewish Messiah??

Please!!! This is the sort of nonsense that is propagated by HJers to explain why non-apologetic sources did not mention Jesus of Nazareth.

If nobody knew Jesus was the prophesied Messianic ruler of the Jews when he was alive then he could not be regarded as a Messiah after death.

The War of the Jews c 66-70 CE was fought because the Jews believed their prophesied Messianic ruler would emerge at that time and conquer the Roman Empire.


War of the Jews 6.5.4

The writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have destroyed the NT.

Jesus the prophesied Jewish Messiah never ever existed at all.

There is no ad hoc retrofitting and post hoc rationalization of the Jesus story.

Personal opinion of no interest to anyone but you.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy of the supposed Jesus being born in Bethlehem in the time of Herod the Great.

Your addition of "in the time of Herod the Great" is yours only. An addition you make in order to make your assertion true. What's more, there is no need for there to be a clear prophecy in Hebrew scripture about the Messiah for Jews (or any other religious person) to believe that there is. Even worse, numerous wannabe Messiahs have existed over the many centuries since JC and had no problems gaining followers among other Jews, showing that it is perfectly possible to claim a Messiah at any point in time.

Hebrew Scripture has no prophecy that the supposed Jesus would be born of a Ghost and a Virgin in the time of Pilate.

Irrelevant. It obviously has no prophecy that there would be a person named Pilate. Nor does it have a prophecy that there would be a person named Vespasian. So what?

Writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius specifically stated that based on Hebrew Scripture the Jews expected their prophesied Messianic ruler at around c 66-70 CE [not 27-37 CE -not in the time of Pilate.]

Josephus was eager to shoehorn Vespasian into the prophecies. Others were eager to shoehorn Jesus into them. Do you believe that Vespasian was the Messiah? If not, why not?

There was no prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler in the 1st century.

Mhm. There was no prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler in the 2nd, 5th, 7th, 11th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, or 19th centuries, either. None of which prevented a bunch of wannabe Messiahs from gaining followers in those centuries. The fact that they were all fake Messiahs isn't the point. The point is that it was, and still is, perfectly possible for someone to say "Oh, look! The Messiah has come!" That they were wrong didn't prevent them from making that claim. Just like some gospel writers made claims that a certain Jesus was the Messiah. They were wrong. But that they were wrong is beside the point.

If Jesus of Nazareth did exist and was crucified before he was regarded as a Messianic ruler then it is virtually impossible for him to be regarded as the prophesied Messianic ruler when he was already dead.

You have no idea what religious people can make themself believe, do you? Sabbatai Zevi (1626–1676) claimed to be the Messiah, but then converted to Islam. He still has followers who believe he was the Messiah today!

The Jews were not looking in graveyards for their prophesied Messianic ruler.

Pointless assertion.

The Jesus stories are all total propaganda in an attempt to blame the Jews for the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

Your private hypothesis, I gather?

How about trying to answer the question I actually asked? Or is it going to be another pointless rant about what some Jews couldn't possibly believe?
 
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