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Hezbollah: take that

You like makeing appeals to emotion don't you?

I don't see why it's an appeal to emotion to say that a "yes, but..." argument is not morally acceptable when the "yes" part is "yes, they want to destroy israel and a second holocaust, but...".

Sometimes a "yes, but..." argument is morally acceptable--that is, when an action which is ordinarily not allowed is permissible under special circumstances. If I grab your children from you and run away, that is, usually, kidnapping, but it is excusable if I happened to see that a building is about to collapse on them and return them to you promptly.

Here, however, the "yes, but..." argument achieves nothing, morally speaking, since it is obvious there are no circumstances under which a second holocaust is one's goal is morally excusable.

Essentially, Hizbullah is fascist, both in its goals (domination of its enemies, destruction of other countries, genocide) and in its methods (propaganda, brainwashing, hiding behind civilians, indiscriminate terror attacks, etc.). "Yes, but...-ing" fascism is, for obvious reasons, morally unacceptable.
 
a_unique_person said:
An Israeli airstrike hit a minibus Saturday carrying 20 civilians, killing at least 15 of them, Lebanese internal security sources said.

And are you claiming the airstrike targeted the civilian minibus... or that its targets were infratructure, in this case, a main road?

Incidentally, the part you deliberately didn't quote (apart, of course, from all the rest of the article which gives a list of the Hizbullah attacks on israel--of course, that is deliberate attack on civilians, but, hey, who cares? It's only jews...):

The van was heading along the coastal road from Shamaa to Bayada when its passengers stopped at a U.N. base asking for shelter and were turned away, a security official said.

Ah, good ol' UN, brave and efficient as usual.

The effort to free two soldiers has resulted in the situation flaring up, so that Israeli civilians are dead.

So? Since when is that a problem as far as you're concerned?
 
Here, however, the "yes, but..." argument achieves nothing, morally speaking, since it is obvious there are no circumstances under which a second holocaust is one's goal is morally excusable.

In a situtation where you had a choice between a second holocaust and the destruction of the rest of the human race I think the second holocaust would be considered morally excusable.

Essentially, Hizbullah is fascist, both in its goals (domination of its enemies, destruction of other countries, genocide) and in its methods (propaganda, brainwashing, hiding behind civilians, indiscriminate terror attacks, etc.). "Yes, but...-ing" fascism is, for obvious reasons, morally unacceptable.

So other than showing you don't know what fascism is do you have a point?


For the record Hezbullah are probably best described a despotic theocracy or at least that is the form of goverment they appear to be aiming for.
 
There are plenty of back roads, apparently. If they were serious about taking the soldiers to Syria, that wouldn't stop them.

Today Israeli fighter jets struck at least two border crossing points from Lebanon into Syria. Israel is in fact trying to cut off Hezbollah's supply lines, just as I said earlier in this thread. That is an age-old and effective military strategy.

Civilians will most certainly suffer, not just from direct attacks, but from the effective siege of their country. The whole point of siege warfare is to destroy your enemy's will and ability to fight by choking it. When done right, it works. Check your history books.

As others have pointed out in this thread, although the enemy here is Hezbollah, in effect it is Lebanon itself as well, as clearly the government and the people have freely allowed Hezbollah to control the south, and have supported its efforts. Now they are paying the price for that support. You can't have it both ways.

It doesn't look good, either way, does it? If Hezbollah hoped to goad Israel into overreacting, it has done a good job.

What is Israel supposed to do when its northern towns and cities are attacked with rockets from Lebanon, and then guerillas from Lebanon sneak into Israel and kidnap Israeli soldiers? Try to "negotiate" with the crazed guerillas intent on destroying Israel and all Jews?

Lebanon as a whole is not innocent. Despite its varying ethnic groups, it is a politically sovereign nation that supports a paramilitary group which has been fighting a guerrilla war with Israel for years.

The effort to free two soldiers has resulted in the situation flaring up, so that Israeli civilians are dead. I don't see why such an effort is being made to free them, when such a task is going to probably end in failure. Reminds me of black hawk down. Better off to cut your losses.

That is not why Israel is responding with such force and speed. Israel has stated quite emphatically that not only does it demand the return of the captured soldiers, but it will not stop this military action until Hezbollah is completely disarmed. That is Israel's immediate and long term goal in this action. It has put its foot down and will no longer engage in the minor tit-for-tat gamesmanship with Hezbollah that has been going on in northern Israel/southern Lebanon for years.

AS
 
As others have pointed out in this thread, although the enemy here is Hezbollah, in effect it is Lebanon itself as well, as clearly the government and the people have freely allowed Hezbollah to control the south, and have supported its efforts. Now they are paying the price for that support. You can't have it both ways.

AS
...and I will support that argument 100% with documentation that I cited in another thread called Lebanese Duplicity
 
Today Israeli fighter jets struck at least two border crossing points from Lebanon into Syria. Israel is in fact trying to cut off Hezbollah's supply lines, just as I said earlier in this thread. That is an age-old and effective military strategy.

Civilians will most certainly suffer, not just from direct attacks, but from the effective siege of their country. The whole point of siege warfare is to destroy your enemy's will and ability to fight by choking it. When done right, it works. Check your history books.

Problem is the last people to starve will be Hezbollah and it's supporters.

As others have pointed out in this thread, although the enemy here is Hezbollah, in effect it is Lebanon itself as well, as clearly the government and the people have freely allowed Hezbollah to control the south, and have supported its efforts. Now they are paying the price for that support. You can't have it both ways.

Allowed? How were they meant to stop it? As for support I really rather doubt the other fractions in lebanon support Hezbollah.

What is Israel supposed to do when its northern towns and cities are attacked with rockets from Lebanon, and then guerillas from Lebanon sneak into Israel and kidnap Israeli soldiers? Try to "negotiate" with the crazed guerillas intent on destroying Israel and all Jews?

Try to focus on Hezbollah. Or they could use the old technique of playing the internal factions off against each other.

Lebanon as a whole is not innocent. Despite its varying ethnic groups, it is a politically sovereign nation.

For about a year.

that supports

The Shia do. The others less so.

a paramilitary group which has been fighting a guerrilla war with Israel for years.

People tend to do that when occupied.

That is not why Israel is responding with such force and speed. Israel has stated quite emphatically that not only does it demand the return of the captured soldiers, but it will not stop this military action until Hezbollah is completely disarmed.

Who is going to disarm Hezbollah?
 
In a situtation where you had a choice between a second holocaust and the destruction of the rest of the human race I think the second holocaust would be considered morally excusable.

I suppose you recognize that you have created a false dichotomy.

Nevertheless, please allow me to address what I find to be a troubling inference I am making from your remark. It almost sounds as if you might find allowing bullies to exterminate the Jewish people simplying for being Jewish morally excusable under the right circumstances. I realize that is not exactly what you said, as you said it was morally excusable when the only alternative is the destruction of the human race. I suspect Americans as a whole probably do not agree with your implication that under the right circumstances wiping the Jewish people off the face of the earth simply for being Jewish is ever morally acceptable. Do not underestimate the American spirit of "live free or die" and "better dead than red." The American servicemen dying in Iraq today are volunteers.

This is only my opinion, but I think the US as a whole would in fact prefer a nuclear war to the wholesale extermination of Jews the world over.

We just might get one, too, as just last night former CIA agent Robert Baer, the man on whom George Clooney's character in Syriana is based, said on CNN that he has no doubt that World War Three has begun. The stage is set for the major world powers to pick sides, as they are already doing publicly, and the Middle East crisis will likely escalate, drawing in more players, and more support from the bigger players.

Eventually, if it continues, nations will formally declare war on each other and we would have a third world war. Remember that the first world war started over the simple assassination of an heir to the throne of a minor (in military and political terms) European country. The stage was already set for nations to align with or against each other, however, much like today. Oh, and that war was supposed to be the "war to end all wars." Sure.

A third world war would, in my opinion, likely result in at least someone using a moderate to large nuclear weapon, or at least tactical nukes (China has plenty of these). That someone may or may not be a sovereign nation, but instead some other radical band of guerillas or "freedom fighters" or whatever. I doubt it would result in large, global nuclear strikes using thousands of nuclear weapons in the world's collective stockpile, a la that contemplated during the Cold War between the US and the USSR.

The predictions of extermination of the human race using nuclear weapons are likely hyperbolic. There is no doubt that the detonation of hundreds or even dozens of large nukes in a short period of time would profoundly affect lifeforms the world over, and the modern, fast-paced, ultra-techno and affluent lifestyle as we in the West know it would end for now. The earth would recover in due time, however, and humans and their civilization would as well.

AS
 
I suppose you recognize that you have created a false dichotomy.

Since it is meant to be a purely hypothical example no I havent. I was just showing that Skeptics position wasn't logicaly justifiable.

This is only my opinion, but I think the US as a whole would in fact prefer a nuclear war to the wholesale extermination of Jews the world over.

Well yes it is to be assumed that the US would object to the loss of a large number of it's own citerzen

We just might get one, too, as just last night former CIA agent Robert Baer, the man on whom George Clooney's character in Syriana is based, said on CNN that he has no doubt that World War Three has begun. The stage is set for the major world powers to pick sides, as they are already doing publicly, and the Middle East crisis will likely escalate, drawing in more players, and more support from the bigger players.

However of the big players China is staying away and the others are picking fairly simular positions.
 
Allowed? How were they meant to stop it? As for support I really rather doubt the other fractions in lebanon support Hezbollah.
You request assistance from other countries who do have the power to disarm Hezbollah. But you only do that if you're actually serious about it and aren't simply crying crocodile tears at this point.

Did the Lebanese government request assistance to help rid them of this problem that they couldn't do anything about themselves?
 
Since it is meant to be a purely hypothical example no I havent. I was just showing that Skeptics position wasn't logicaly justifiable.

That's cool, but you mentioned that it would be morally excusable.

Well yes it is to be assumed that the US would object to the loss of a large number of it's own citerzen

Not just Americans, but Europeans, Israelis, and Jewish persons elsewhere.

However of the big players China is staying away and the others are picking fairly simular positions.

The Middle East is not the only possible theater of operations. Just this week Japan weighed the possibility of engaging in a pre-emptive strike against North Korea to knock out its ability to invade its neighbors. If Japan does attack North Korea, or something similar happens in East Asia, do you think China would sit idly by, without taking sides? Surely it would announce its approval or disapproval of the actions. It could find itself sucked into a war in East Asia, despite any attempt to remain neutral, just as the US was involuntarily sucked into WWII, despite having officially remained out of it for two years.

Furthermore, if this engagement between Israel and Hezbollah attracts other Arab nations, such as Syria and Iran, into any military action against Israel, we could find other nations joining in. For instance, of all military powers in the world, the US is already positioned and firmly in place with its war machine nearby in Iraq, and would likely support Israel militarily if enough Arab nations joined in war against Israel.

Fortunately, as of today, we have Egypt and Saudi Arabia denouncing Hezbollah's continued rocket attacks on Israeli towns and cities, and distancing themselves from any perceived support of Hezbollah.

Right now, this is a precarious situation. Let's hope it begins to defuse in the coming days or weeks.

AS
 
Allowed? How were they meant to stop it? As for support I really rather doubt the other fractions in lebanon support Hezbollah.

Hezbollah obviously has enough support from the residents of southern Lebanon to control it. They live in the same neighborhoods and eat together, shop together, and work together.

Just today, Israeli planes dropped leaflets over the Lebanese town of Sidon, telling the residents that Hezbollah does not represent the best interests of the people of Lebanon and urging them to pressure Hezbollah to give up. A CNN reporter on the scene said that many children gathered the leaflets and distributed them, but it seemed a consensus among the people was that it was merely Israeli propaganda and they shrugged it off.

They are in denial. They apparently think Hezbollah does in fact represent their interests, and that one of those interests is the destruction of the so-called Zionist State and the extermination of the Jewish people. So, yes, the people do "allow" Hezbollah to operate there. If not, the Israelis wouldn't be dropping leaflets hoping to turn the people against Hezbollah.

Like I said above, a sustained siege and blockade of Lebanon, if it lasts long enough, will put enormous pressure on the Lebanese people to turn against Hezbollah. It doesn't matter which faction or faith the residents there belong to. They are all humans with basic needs, such as food. Starve them, and they will rebel against Hezbollah or die. I don't think the Israelis are too concerned with civilian deaths in Lebanon from starvation when those civilians continue to support Hezbollah. On the other hand, the IDF has dropped leaflets warning residents of Beirut and other towns to stay away from certain targets in advance of their bombing them, however, so Israel is taking reasonable measures to minimize civilian casualties.

AS
 
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Hezbollah obviously has enough support from the residents of southern Lebanon to control it.

That is where the shia live. So yes the people in that area are likely to support Hezbollah.

Just today, Israeli planes dropped leaflets over the Lebanese town of Sidon, telling the residents that Hezbollah does not represent the best interests of the people of Lebanon and urging them to pressure Hezbollah to give up. A CNN reporter on the scene said that many children gathered the leaflets and distributed them, but it seemed a consensus among the people was that it was merely Israeli propaganda and they shrugged it off.

Again Sidon is in the south.

They are in denial. They apparently think Hezbollah does in fact represent their interests, and that one of those interests is the destruction of the so-called Zionist State and the extermination of the Jewish people. So, yes, the people do "allow" Hezbollah to operate there. If not, the Israelis wouldn't be dropping leaflets hoping to turn the people against Hezbollah.

The Shia do. However they are not the main part of the goverment

Like I said above, a sustained siege and blockade of Lebanon, if it lasts long enough, will put enormous pressure on the Lebanese people to turn against Hezbollah. It doesn't matter which faction or faith the residents there belong to. They are all humans with basic needs, such as food. Starve them, and they will rebel against Hezbollah or die. I don't think the Israelis are too concerned with civilian deaths in Lebanon from starvation when those civilians continue to support Hezbollah. On the other hand, the IDF has dropped leaflets warning residents of Beirut and other towns to stay away from certain targets in advance of their bombing them, however, so Israel is taking reasonable measures to minimize civilian casualties.

AS

Hezbollah and it's supporters will starve last. It is those who reject Syria (and therefor are somewhat less anti israeli) who will starve first.
 
In a situtation where you had a choice between a second holocaust and the destruction of the rest of the human race I think the second holocaust would be considered morally excusable.

Do you see Hezbollah in a position to offer that choice to the world?

If so, wouldn't that still make Hesbollah morally reprehensible?
 
In a situtation where you had a choice between a second holocaust and the destruction of the rest of the human race I think the second holocaust would be considered morally excusable.

Anyone who offered that choice would, ipso facto, be morally inexcusable. It's an interesting thought exercise if you ignore real world limitations and consequences, but the fact of the matter is that this conflict has its root in mindless agression against an Israel that had already withdrawn six years ago.

That must mean something to even you, who refuses to see that Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel, as stated in their 1985 platform.
 
Do you see Hezbollah in a position to offer that choice to the world?

If so, wouldn't that still make Hesbollah morally reprehensible?

This is irrelivant to the point I was makeing.
 

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