Hercules and Jesus

[Craig B]

Yes, any cultures seem to have had variations of the same 'Saviour' story long before Jesus.

Many emperors were also considered diety-saviours, particularly around the time that Christianity developed.

The Jewish chronicler Josephus took this view, or at least he prudently wrote that he did.

What did the most to induce the Jews to start this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 6.312-313)​

 

[David Mo]

That's pretty much the point; many cultures seem to have had different variations of the same 'Jesus' story long before Jesus.

I wouldn't say "the same story". I prefer to say that Jesus story is a collage of different pre-extant stories about gods, sons of gods, divine entities, heroes, prophets and so on. The result is original in some extent, but not drawn from the nothing.

In reality, we are saying similar things.

 

[GT/CS]

Does the old testament tell any new stories or are they also retellings of older stories?

 

[David Mo]

Does the old testament tell any new stories or are they also retellings of older stories?

Both, I suppose. Basically, they are oral re-tellings. The poet/priest (rhapsode) sings an old poem and sometimes inserts homegrown variants. In the older books of the Bible there are remains of a dualism that became monotheism later. Someone had invented the monotheism, is it not?.

 

[dropzone]

I wonder how many pages we can drag this one out...

Many.

It's like mashing together 19th century folk stories of "Wild Bill" Hickok with the 1950s Hollywood musical "Calamity Jane" and the HBO Series "Deadwood" and calling the most outrageous version you can cobble together "The Wild Bill Story"...

Which might be close to the "the most accurate." Dude was the worst form of interesting.

 

[maximara]

This looks like nonsense. What makes you think that this Harpur is reliable? Have you checked his sources?

I can tell you much of the Horus - Jesus connection is garbage.

1. Horus born of a virgin. Jesus born of a virgin.

R1: Neither of these is correct. Isis has sex with Osiris to produce Horus. In one version this was after she brought him back. In another version he was born before Osiris was killed by Set. We know that at least one denomination of Christianity "represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation" - Irenaeus (c 180) Against Heresies, I.26

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

R4: In reality the number of wisemen is never stated. In fact, in Eastern Christianity the number is 12.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

R5: What angels? Angels as Christianity portrayed them didn't even exist in Ancient Egyptian mythology.

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

R6: Herut is also known as Horus the Elder and appears to be a precursor version to Horus son of Osiris. Zeus becoming Jupiter is short of what happened here.

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

R7: There is nothing in ancient Egyptian mythology that even remotely suggests such a thing.

9. Horus had 12 followers. Jesus had 12 disciples.

R9: Where is this coming from?

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

R11: it was Isis not Horus who brought Osiris back from the dead. In one version of the myth she had sex with him he died again (insert tasteless joke here); in the version Plutarch relates this the second child Harpocrates

13. Horus was killed by crucifixion. Jesus was crucified.
14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixion. Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

R13-14: crucifixion as done to Jesus was a totally different thing from "crucifixion" used in Ancient Egypt Never mind I known of no legend where Horus is killed by any means.

Rest snipped because I can only handle so much drivel

Tom Harpur needs to go and do some actual research then simply repeating stuff we known from Egyptology to be total nonsense.

 

[dejudge]

We know that the Church taught that the earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Their writings are documented and dated.

We have manuscripts dated to at least the 2nd-3rd century.

Examine the teachings of the Church in their own New Testament.

Matthew 4.8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them...

Luke 4.5

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Now examine their Old Testament.

Joshua 10.12-13

Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.....

The teachings of the Church was that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth.

In addition, we have multiple Christian writers who ridiculed the idea that the earth was SPHERICAL and that people could live on opposite sides of the earth.

 

[maximara]

We know that the Church taught that the earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Their writings are documented and dated.

We have manuscripts dated to at least the 2nd-3rd century.

Examine the teachings of the Church in their own New Testament.

Matthew 4.8

Luke 4.5

Now examine their Old Testament.

Joshua 10.12-13

The teachings of the Church was that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth.

In addition, we have multiple Christian writers who ridiculed the idea that the earth was SPHERICAL and that people could live on opposite sides of the earth.

Proverbs 8:27 and Job 26:10 suggest a round Earth.

More over Aristotle who was the go to for the early Church in terms of cosmology had expressly stated that Earth as a sphere (De caelo, 297a9–21). Yes, admittedly there was the occasional Christian who wrote in support of a flat earth but they were in the minority.

In fact, the few medieval pictures (such as The Psalter Map of 1225-1250 CE) that show Jesus holding the world we see not a pancake but a round Earth. Aquinas and Roger Bacon who also belong to this time period both talk of a round Earth.

The maps used to "prove" the flat earth lie are actually T-O maps or mappae mundi and were meant as a memory aid regarding aspects of Christianity and not as a guide to go from point a to point b.

Dante's Comedy gives us a better understanding of how Christians actually viewed the world; the imperfect world of man was in the northern hemisphere while the Mountain of Purgatory was the only piece of land in the southern hemisphere. With all of world of man in one hemisphere then it would have been possible metaphorically possible for Satan to get high enough to show Jesus the world of man (The Mountain of Purgatory which was not give-able by Satan would be hidden by the curve of the Earth.)

The Christians believed in a flat earth nonsense comes mainly from two authors: Antoine-Jean Letronne and Washington Irving. It is a 19th century fiction.

Contrary to the picture Irving paints the debate with Columbus was not if the Earth was round or not as any person of the time knew it was round. The problem was the size of the Earth. In a twist of irony Columbus was wrong regarding the size of the Earth and if it hadn't been for the Americas his crews would have perished from lack of water and food.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

In fact, the few medieval pictures (such as The Psalter Map of 1225-1250 CE) show Jesus holding the world we see not a pancake but a round Earth.

A pancake is round.


pancake
noun pan·cake \ˈpan-ˌkāk\

Simple Definition of pancake

: a thin, flat, round cake that is made by cooking batter on both sides in a frying pan or on a hot surface (called a griddle)

 

[dejudge]

Proverbs 8:27 and Job 26:10 suggest a round Earth.

Your statement is quite bizarre [hopelessly absurd]. Proverbs 8.27 and Job 26.10 do not suggest a round earth. A compass is used for directions North, East, West and South.


Christian teaching in their own Bible is that the earth is fixed, flat with four corners and that the whole earth can be seen from high mountains.

The earth can never ever move in Psalms.

Examine the Old Testament of the Church.

1. Psalm 104:5---- Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

2. Proverbs 8:29---- When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth

3. Job 38:4----- Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

4. Isaiah 11:12----- And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Examine the New Testament of the Church.

1. Hebrews 1:10--- And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

2. Revelation 7:1----- And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The teachings of the Church in their own Bible is that the earth was flat, unmovable and was bounded by four corners.

The Christians believed in a flat earth nonsense comes mainly from two authors: Antoine-Jean Letronne and Washington Irving. It is a 19th century fiction.

Again, your statement is hopelessly absurd.

Examine Divine Institutes attributed to Lactantius--a supposed 4th century Church writer.

Church writers argued that the earth in the shape of a globe was senseless.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/07013.htm

Divine Institutes 3.24

How is it with those who imagine that there are antipodes opposite to our footsteps?

Do they say anything to the purpose?

Or is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads?

Or that the things which with us are in a recumbent position, with them hang in an inverted direction?

That the crops and trees grow downwards?

That the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards to the earth?...

Examine Christian Topography attributed to 6th century Christian Cosmas Indicopleustes.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cosmas_04_book4.htm


Cosmas Indicopleustes, Christian Topography

.... We therefore first depict along with the earth, the heaven which is vaulted and which has its extremities bound together with the extremities of the earth.

To the best of our ability we have endeavoured to delineate it on its western side and its eastern; for these two sides are walls, extending from below to the vault above.

There is also the firmament which, in the middle, is bound together with the first heaven, and which, on its upper side, has the waters according to divine scripture itself. The position and figure are such as here sketched.

2 To the extremities on the four sides of the earth the heaven is fastened at its own four extremities, making the figure of a cube, that is to say, a quadrangular figure, while up above it curves round in the form of an oblong vault and becomes as it were a vast canopy.

And in the middle the firmament is made fast to it, and thus two places are formed.

Christian writings of antiquity are evidence that the doctrine of the Church was that the earth was fixed, flat, bounded by a foundation with four sides.

 

[dejudge]

We know that the Christian Church claimed that the earth was fixed, flat, unmovable and was not a globe because their writings are documented.

We also know how their Jesus was manufactured because of their Old and New Testament.

Jesus of Nazareth was fabricated fundamentally from Jewish mythology or Hebrew Scripture.

Christian writings actualyl state that the things that were done by their Jesus was to fulfill what is written in Hebrew Scripture.

1. Matthew 1:22---- Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet....

2. Matthew 2:15---- And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet


3. Matthew 2:17--- Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet....

4. Matthew 2:23 -----And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets


5. Matthew 4:14----- That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.....

5. Matthew 8:17--- That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

6. Matthew 12:17---That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.....

7. Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive

8. Matthew 13:35---- That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables

9. Matthew 21:4---- All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.....

10. Matthew 24:15 ----When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

11. Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.....

12. Matthew 26:56 ----But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

13. Matthew 27:9---- Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued.....

14. Matthew 27:35------ And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet

15. John 1:14 ----And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The evidence is documented.

Jesus is myth like the Greek/Roman Hercules but is a direct product of the mutilation of Hebrew Scripture by non-Jews.

 

[maximara]

It should be mentioned that there is no actual evidence the Christian Church taught or in generally believed the Earth was flat.

Augustine of Hippo (Saint Augustine) of the late 4th early 5th century wrote:

"But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled."

As mentioned before Aristotle was the go to for the early Church in terms of cosmology and he had expressly stated that Earth as a sphere (De caelo, 297a9–21).

In fact, the few medieval pictures (such as The Psalter Map of 1225-1250 CE) that show Jesus holding the world we see the Earth as a globe (Terry Jones viewing a similar picture comments of Jesus holding a cricket ball). The L'Image du monde (ca. 1246) similarly shows that Earth was viewed as a globe.

Aquinas and Roger Bacon who also belong to this time period both talk of a round Earth.

Dante's Divine Comedy has the Earth a globe and the protagonist seeing constellations unknown on his side of the globe.

As far as the few Churchmen and the Bible saying the Earth was flat the Church handled it by either ignoring the passage (as was the case with Irenaeus who said Jesus was at least 46 when he was crucified and elsewhere clearly stated that this happened under Claudius ie no earlier then 42 CE) or by saying that passage was not to be taken literally...a method used by some modern Christians.

 

[dejudge]

It should be mentioned that there is no actual evidence the Christian Church taught or in generally believed the Earth was flat.

Again, we have the Old and New Testament of the Church.

We have multiple Codices like the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Alexandrinus.

Again, examine the Temptation story of the Church in their New Testament.

The earth MUST be flat so that their Jesus and Devil could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain.


Matthew 4.8----Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them...


Luke 4.5---And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Examine the OT on the Christian Church---the earth has foundations which cannot ever be moved.

Psalm 104:5---- Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.


Proverbs 8:29---- When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth

The Christian Bible contains the doctrine of the Christian Church.

It is quite useless to argue against the evidence.

 

[maximara]

Again, we have the Old and New Testament of the Church.

We have multiple Codices like the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Alexandrinus.

I already addressed this:

As far as the few Churchmen and the Bible saying the Earth was flat the Church handled it by either ignoring the passage (as was the case with Irenaeus who said Jesus was at least 46 when he was crucified and elsewhere clearly stated that this happened under Claudius ie no earlier then 42 CE) or by saying that passage was not to be taken literally... a method used by some modern Christians.

Again, examine the Temptation story of the Church in their New Testament.

Again follow the link to see how the Church reconciled Aristotle's global Earth with what the New and Old Testament.

The earth MUST be flat so that their Jesus and Devil could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain.

Nope. If you were able to get to a point high enough when Pangaea existed you would have been able to see all major land on the globe.

Remember that at that time the true expanse of Eurasia and Africa (as well the Americas, Antartica, and Australia, etc) was unknown.

Toscanelli got Asia 5,000 miles longer then it really was and Columbus used a Earth 25% smaller then it really was to sell his idea of sailing west to reach the East.

Matthew 4.8----Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them...


Luke 4.5---And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

"Theological rebuttal again: The strength of using Matthew and Luke as flat Earth claims is lessoned by the fact that “Kingdom” is a human construct. If you classify all the places on Earth you can’t see from that particular location as “Not Kingdoms” such as barbaric tribes and non-monarchies, it can be fitted within that description. However, how the devil knows those places are not ruled by Kings (Again, the concept of “King” is also a human concept) is not exactly clear."

Examine the OT on the Christian Church---the earth has foundations which cannot ever be moved.

Different issue from a Flat earth. Also the first attempt at a Christian bible had no OT: all it did have were 10 letters of "Paul" and a variant of what we call Luke. This Gospel merges what is Luke 3:1-4:31 into one "paragraph":

In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Jesus descended [out of heaven] into Capernaum, a city in Galilee,
and was teaching [in the synagogue] on the Sabbath days; And they were astonished at his doctrine.

 

[GDon]

"Theological rebuttal again: The strength of using Matthew and Luke as flat Earth claims is lessoned by the fact that “Kingdom” is a human construct. If you classify all the places on Earth you can’t see from that particular location as “Not Kingdoms” such as barbaric tribes and non-monarchies, it can be fitted within that description. However, how the devil knows those places are not ruled by Kings (Again, the concept of “King” is also a human concept) is not exactly clear."

Ancient Church Father Origen, writing around 200 CE, also made a similar point. He wrote:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm

But not to extend the task which we have before us beyond its due limits, it is very easy for anyone who pleases to gather out of holy Scripture what is recorded indeed as having been done, but what nevertheless cannot be believed as having reasonably and appropriately occurred according to the historical account.

The same style of Scriptural narrative occurs abundantly in the Gospels, as when the devil is said to have placed Jesus on a lofty mountain, that he might show Him from thence all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. How could it literally come to pass, either that Jesus should be led up by the devil into a high mountain, or that the latter should show him all the kingdoms of the world (as if they were lying beneath his bodily eyes, and adjacent to one mountain), i.e., the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians? Or how could he show in what manner the kings of these kingdoms are glorified by men?

And many other instances similar to this will be found in the Gospels by anyone who will read them with attention, and will observe that in those narratives which appear to be literally recorded, there are inserted and interwoven things which cannot be admitted historically, but which may be accepted in a spiritual signification.​

I think Origen is referring to the idea of the earth as a globe, though he doesn't state it outright. But he certainly didn't take a 'literalist' approach, either to the OT or the NT. And that was 1800 years ago!

 

[dejudge]

Ancient Church Father Origen, writing around 200 CE, also made a similar point. He wrote:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm

But not to extend the task which we have before us beyond its due limits, it is very easy for anyone who pleases to gather out of holy Scripture what is recorded indeed as having been done, but what nevertheless cannot be believed as having reasonably and appropriately occurred according to the historical account.

The same style of Scriptural narrative occurs abundantly in the Gospels, as when the devil is said to have placed Jesus on a lofty mountain, that he might show Him from thence all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. How could it literally come to pass, either that Jesus should be led up by the devil into a high mountain, or that the latter should show him all the kingdoms of the world (as if they were lying beneath his bodily eyes, and adjacent to one mountain), i.e., the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians? Or how could he show in what manner the kings of these kingdoms are glorified by men?

And many other instances similar to this will be found in the Gospels by anyone who will read them with attention, and will observe that in those narratives which appear to be literally recorded, there are inserted and interwoven things which cannot be admitted historically, but which may be accepted in a spiritual signification.​

I think Origen is referring to the idea of the earth as a globe, though he doesn't state it outright. But he certainly didn't take a 'literalist' approach, either to the OT or the NT. And that was 1800 years ago!

What a bizarre useless argument. Origen has only confirmed the NT is a source of fiction.

If the temptation as described is not an historical account but accepted as spiritual significance then your assumption that Origen referred to the idea of the earth as a globe is of no value since your supposed imagined globe of Origen may also be for spiritual significance.

In any event, Origen never ever claimed the earth was a globe [historically or spiritually] or revolved around the sun [historically or spiritually] in any writings attributed to him.

The Christian Bible used by Origen do actually state that the earth has foundations which cannot ever be removed and that the sun and the moon stood still.

Please, you are wasting time. We have the Codices of the Church.

The Christian Bible contains the teachings of the Christian Church.

Joshua 10:12-13

Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies......

 

[maximara]

Please, you are wasting time. We have the Codices of the Church.

Which date from the 4th century for intact books.

The Christian Bible contains the teachings of the Christian Church.

A Christian church. We know that even at 180 CE Christianity had badly fragmented. By the time Constantine I had the fFirst Council of Nicaea Christianity was already fragmenting.

Around the time of Marcian, the Emperor in the 6th century the divisions that would form the Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syica, Armenian Apostolic, and Malankara churches as well as the better known Eastern (Greek) Orthodox and Roman Catholic schism had occurred.

Then you had groups like the Marcionism and Arianism that survived into the Middle Ages and others like Nestorianism and Eutychianism that survived to the present day

Even in Roman Catholicism the Bible wasn't read just on its own but in the context of Aristotelian theology and Aristotle clearly stated the Earth was a globe.

Joshua 10:12-13

Again, the first attempt at a Christian bible (c140 CE) had no OT: all it did have were 10 letters of "Paul" and a variant of what we call Luke which did not have the whole go up a mountain and see all the kingdoms.

Bede the Venerable (c. 672–735) wrote "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

 

[dejudge]

Please, you are wasting time. We have the Codices of the Church.

Which date from the 4th century for intact books.

The Codices of the Church contain the teachings of the Church.

The Codices of the Church contain Gospels and Epistles dated to at least the 2nd-3rd century.

The Codices of the Church contain Greek translation of books from Hebrew Scripture dated hundreds of years before the Common Era.

The Codices of the Church confirm that the Church writers believed the earth was flat and fixed in place by foundations and that the sun revolved around the earth.


Psalm 102:25 ---Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

 

[Brainache]

I think we can all agree that the bible is not an accurate geology textbook.

I don't think it was ever intended as a geology textbook and I can't understand why anyone would insist on reading it as a geology textbook.

 

[maximara]

I think we can all agree that the bible is not an accurate geology textbook.

I don't think it was ever intended as a geology textbook and I can't understand why anyone would insist on reading it as a geology textbook.

Some people get too literal regarding what the Bible.

As shown before even with the Roman Catholic Church using Aristotelian cosmology (which said the Earth was a globe) you had the occasional churchman taking the Bible literally.