Split Thread henryco's new paper

[240-185]

Cela doit poursuivre une oie.

Pardon me, sir, but that sentence is quite meaningless in French

("That must chase a goose"????)

 

[Furcifer]

Pardon me, sir, but that sentence is quite meaningless in French

("That must chase a goose"????)

Il doit poursuivre une oie?

My verbage sucks. "It's a goose chase" is a little beyond my french I suppose.

 

[240-185]

In fact, the "goose chase" is an idiom which can't be translated accurately in French. The nearest translation is: "It's like chasing a goose"
So, let's just stick with "Vous perdez votre temps". ("You're wasting time")

 

[leftysergeant]

So you are pulverizing concrete and buckling columns but all the windows stay intact! This is completely nonsense ! whereever there is Pancaking there is of course destruction of all the windows. Thus there is no piston!

Utter nonsense. The only columns that buckled were those in the core at the point at which failure occurred. Most of the three-piece panels of perimeter columns are seen to be hardly warped even after the many-hundred-foot drops. They were simply spread open by the massive buildup of rubble and steel inside the towers. Not one was ever photographed showing signs of being cut with explosives or thermite. The rivet holes all all appear to have been torn open by lateral forces parallel to the facade in which they were installed. This indicates, at least to me, that there was a generalized over-pressurization of entire floors. If this were the result of rubble compressing air and dust inside the walls, the build-up would be gradual. It might not have even shattered the windows. Explosives would have caused an immediate over-pressurization and shot thousands of flat pieces of glass every which way, trailing streamers of dust behind them. Simple pancaking would not neccessarily have broken the glass unless a piece of the floor pans hit it directly. There is, thus, no justification whatsoever for your assertion that there could have been no piston.

As for the shattering and pulverisation of the concrete, the concrete shattered the concrete and the broken pieces jarring together produced the fine dust. And construction or repair worker who has ever had to break up a concrerte slab can figure that out.

I have such credentials in my resume.

I see nothing to suggest that the slabs were broken by explosives. Explosives would have blown chunks every which way, including up through the pile of rubble. I say this based on my experience watch various demolitions in the Air Force as a fire fighter and then as a cook and ad hoc company photographer for an Engineer battalion in the Army.

Is it an hallucination or am i hearing explosions here?

The explosions are real, but they are not native to the actual video footage in your link. They, along with the voice of Michael Hezarkhani(Google him if yopu pllease. I do not have time to explain where he was when he was recoded,) were editerd into this video. The explosions sound, to me, based on my experioence in military service, more like artillery rounds detonating at some distance. If you watch intently, you will notice that they are not even in proper time with the observable rythm of flooor failures.

Let me add that if you had really been searching for witnesses of huge explosions at the WTC you should have found many (hundreds)!

And not a bloody one of them describes the kinds of explosions that CD would involve. And don't drag out that putz theologian to back your assertion. He talks through his trousers.

I can see on your photo that there are very few mechanical floors, while the Squibs appear on many floors and not just at these particular floors.

Perhaps you could post a picture showing them NOT coming from a mechanical floor?

I had readen that there was miraculate survivors quite a long time ago, but later, i dont know why, i got convinced that it was Rodriguez. My mistake.
The story of these survivors is incredible and is much easier to make sense of it in a destruction by explosive than in a Pancake.

Horse feathers. The blast and shockwave of detonating HE, as opposed to steadily increasing air crompresion, would cause massive barotrauma and probably blow out the eardrums of anyone in the area. Every person caught inside a building during one of the collaposes experienced the direct for of whatever the "explosion" was as a ind, rather than a gigantic crushing force all around them or a pulsation. One HE blast produces ONE single, discrete shock wave, and dozens of them produce pulsing shock waves. They do not produce a "wind."

In the latter , you have to answer the question : where were the 100 floors that should have been upon them after collapse.

All survivors that I know of were inside stairways inside the core structures. The floors were piled up around the outside of the cores, or slid off the growing pile of rubble for hundreds of feet in any direction.

In the explosive scenario you just have to assume that for some unknown reason the explosive did not fire on several floors and in the area of stairwell B. But they exploded upstairs and downstairs dispersing in fine dust and steel pieces the hundred of floors that should have crushed them!

Where did you get that?

 

[Alferd_Packer]

So you are pulverizing concrete and buckling columns but all the windows stay intact! This is completely nonsense ! whereever there is Pancaking there is of course destruction of all the windows. Thus there is no piston!

Not necessarily. Once the top block started to fall, there would have been a mass of debris that consisted of the initial floors within the building envelope, but separate from the top block. This mass could have and most likely did fall within the confines of the exterior envelope. This mass would have pancaked downward, gaining mass and momentum as it fell.

In other words, the floors slabs would have fallen within the building envelope, separate from the exterior and the core columns. This mass would have pushed the air downward and outward. The descent of the top block which followed would have destroyed the exterior walls and crumpled the core as it dropped.

 

[Justin39640]

http://video.aol.fr/video-detail/bruits-dexplosion-dans-la-tour-sud/170768066
Fred

And there it is. Another truther basing shoddy research on videos with FAKE ****ing AUDIO.

That is so dishonest it's disgusting.

ETA: The hundreds of reports of "Explosions". From your awful research I assume you didn't look much past the out of context quotes.
Many of those reports are firemen describing what it sounded like when people who jumped from the towers hit the ground . Again this is disgusting.

Don't try to quote New Yorkers when your english isn't good enough to properly understand what they are saying.

 

[bardamu]

(My french is not that good, but you don't appear to understand my English very well)

His English is fine, unless you don't want to understand it.

 

[leftysergeant]

His English is fine, unless you don't want to understand it.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that he does not want to understand the fire fighters'oral histories that dimbulb MacQueen uses for evidence of his whackadoodle theories. Understanding those historties would make him want to slap that silly Canadian goose all the way back the monastary for wasting people's time.

 

[grandmastershek]

this is such a ridiculous non issue. explosives would created disturbances all over the building, not just at isolated pockets. had these ejections occured everywhere the TM would be citing that as evidence. yet more non falsifiability of the truther cult.

until they can explain how explosives avoid audio reording and seismogaph there is no point in even arguing with them.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

So you are pulverizing concrete and buckling columns but all the windows stay intact! This is completely nonsense ! whereever there is Pancaking there is of course destruction of all the windows. Thus there is no piston!

For the 160km/h just do the exercice with a controlled demolition video: many on the market... you will find such speeds (just because a jet of pulverized debris slows down and comes to rest very fast in the air)

Exactly. It slows down almost immediately in an actual controlled demolition, that is the exact opposite of what you are calling "Squibs" coming from the WTC. They start off relatively slowly and then increase in velocity. This is exactly the opposite result from explosions but are perfectly in time with the increasing velocity of the falling debris above forcing the air out below.

Is it an hallucination or am i hearing explosions here?

http://video.aol.fr/video-detail/bruits-dexplosion-dans-la-tour-sud/170768066

Let me add that if you had really been searching for witnesses of huge explosions at the WTC you should have found many (hundreds)!

First of all that audio has been added a few years after the fact. There are videos from almost the same distance that don't have it. Here is one:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546#

Here is yours in it's original form:

http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc2_south_below.mpg

Compare that to an actual controlled demolition from a similar distance with a vaguely similar structure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U4erFzhC-U

The audio in your video has been added after the fact.

Look closer at the quotes of the people who say that they heard explosions. Each and every one of them prefaces their comments with "It was like" or "It seemed like" or "Almost like" or some variation of that. They were using metaphor and simile. I'll give you an example, I was driving on the highway a few years back and there was a large truck that I was passing. His tire blew out just as I was passing and it sounded like an explosion. Of course there were no explosives involved, it was just a tire that failed catastrophically, but it did sound like an explosion and had some of the characteristics of an explosion. Do you see the difference?

I can see on your photo that there are very few mechanical floors, while the Squibs appear on many floors and not just at these particular floors.

It's not inconceivable that a few windows blew out in the latter stages of the collapse when the air pressure was at its highest and the structure holding the glass in was being violently vibrated and twisted from the collapse above.

I had readen that there was miraculate survivors quite a long time ago, but later, i dont know why, i got convinced that it was Rodriguez. My mistake.
The story of these survivors is incredible and is much easier to make sense of it in a destruction by explosive than in a Pancake. In the latter , you have to answer the question : where were the 100 floors that should have been upon them after collapse. In the explosive scenario you just have to assume that for some unknown reason the explosive did not fire on several floors and in the area of stairwell B. But they exploded upstairs and downstairs dispersing in fine dust and steel pieces the hundred of floors that should have crushed them!

Fred

Those people survived because the core was the last thing to fall and they were lucky enough to be in the one piece of structure that survived that day.

And here is a better shot of it (the core is the structure to the right behind the crane boom):

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7954/wtc0645779646.jpg

To give you a sense of perspective, the debris pile is four stories high and the surviving structure is six stories high.

Finally, the simple fact that there was absolutely no physical evidence of explosives in the debris that was being dismantled by people whose job it was to recognize that type of debris (they were the same people that clean up after a real controlled demolition) means that there were no explosives used that day.

There are many things on the internet that are flat out falsehoods and blatant lies from people who aren't right in the head regarding 9/11. Because of this it can be hard at times to sift out the actual facts from the tons of ******** surrounding it and it takes time to do so. Take that time.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

In the explosive scenario you just have to assume that for some unknown reason the explosive did not fire on several floors and in the area of stairwell B. But they exploded upstairs and downstairs dispersing in fine dust and steel pieces the hundred of floors that should have crushed them!

Fred

Fred, have you ever actually witnessed a controlled demolition where explosives were used?

if you had, you would know that the explosives are not only loud, but you can feel the shock wave of the blasts hitting your chest cavity (your lungs). This carries quite a distance.

it is quite a distinctive feeling, one that would have been noted by all present.

Absolutely no one there that day reported this effect.

 

[Furcifer]

Exactly. It slows down almost immediately in an actual controlled demolition, that is the exact opposite of what you are calling "Squibs" coming from the WTC. They start off relatively slowly and then increase in velocity. This is exactly the opposite result from explosions but are perfectly in time with the increasing velocity of the falling debris above forcing the air out below.

Whoah whoah, who has the PhD. around here?

The fact that Dr. Suess (no offense ) here is explaining physics to Dr. Henry makes me think this might be a nome de plume in more ways than one.

 

[beachnut]

So you are pulverizing concrete and buckling columns but all the windows stay intact! This is completely nonsense ! whereever there is Pancaking there is of course destruction of all the windows. Thus there is no piston!

For the 160km/h just do the exercice with a controlled demolition video: many on the market... you will find such speeds (just because a jet of pulverized debris slows down and comes to rest very fast in the air)

Is it an hallucination or am i hearing explosions here?

http://video.aol.fr/video-detail/bruits-dexplosion-dans-la-tour-sud/170768066

Let me add that if you had really been searching for witnesses of huge explosions at the WTC you should have found many (hundreds)!

I can see on your photo that there are very few mechanical floors, while the Squibs appear on many floors and not just at these particular floors.

I had readen that there was miraculate survivors quite a long time ago, but later, i dont know why, i got convinced that it was Rodriguez. My mistake.
The story of these survivors is incredible and is much easier to make sense of it in a destruction by explosive than in a Pancake. In the latter , you have to answer the question : where were the 100 floors that should have been upon them after collapse. In the explosive scenario you just have to assume that for some unknown reason the explosive did not fire on several floors and in the area of stairwell B. But they exploded upstairs and downstairs dispersing in fine dust and steel pieces the hundred of floors that should have crushed them!

Fred

The same silent no blast effect explosives that were used on all the floors did not go off and saved the guys in the stairwell? Where they were pushed by air from the floors which are pistons; they were pushed down several floors by air pressure from the floors acting like pistons with the debris on top acting as a cap. Cool, you lack knowledge on all aspects of your conspiracy theory delusions.

The silent explosives with no blast effects; no blast deaths, no blast effects on any steel. Cool a delusion with magical explosives that leave no evidence. No steel was blown up by explosives or thermite due to no thermite product found, and not blasted steel found. Boom (no sounds of explosives means you have to come up with silent explosives which also don't leave blast marks; what was it?)

 

[Justin39640]

Henry, have you ever actually witnessed a controlled demolition where explosives were used?

if you had, you would know that the explosives are not only loud, but you can feel the shock wave of the blasts hitting your chest cavity (your lungs).

it is quite a distinctive feeling. one that would have been noted by all present.

Absolutely no one there that day reported this effect.

This demo was in my town when I was in HS.
Henry any observations?

 

[tfk]

You seem to feel that there was little contained pressure and wind velocity within the towers as a result of the collapse.

Please explain where the (200' x 200' x 10 story/second x 12'/story) x .9 (volume fraction air) = 4.3 million cubic feet/second = 120,000 meters^3/second of air goes.

Please explain the "hurricane force winds" that appeared in WTC 1 stairways when WTC2 collapsed. These stairways were connected by hundreds of meters long tunnels below the street level. The tunnels were huge, and included many train tunnels. And yet, the winds were still strong enough to lift men off of their feet.

I do agree, i 'm just arguing that if overpressure was responsible for the localized ejections we see (i'm just trying to follow this absurd scenario some other people seem to believe in) then it would do exactly the same several meters away because overpressure would be the same there: pressure equalizes when entering a closed area.

Pressures equalize. But failures do not. The weakest component (window) fails, and in doing so, relieves the local pressure. This is why the ejecta was seen only in a few locations. And why the pulse is as sudden as it is: the pressure built up until the window broke.

In contrast, you see very low velocity, diffuse smoke begin to emerge from the windows above the collapse zone immediately as the collapse initiates. For two reasons. Smoke filled those upper stories, and people broke out many windows in an attempt to get some fresh air.

 

[henryco]

Another LIE !!!!

http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc2_south_below.mpg

And again, and again, again....

How do you know wish video has the correct sound ? :
the one wish agrees hundreds of testimonies of huge explosions or the other one ?

 

[henryco]

It simply takes another failure lower down the structure, and the parts are no longer in contact, giving the possibility of a further collision at a point lower down the structure than is possible from a gravitational acceleration profile.

I'm not saying that such a thing actually happened; I'm just trying to point out that you're failing to consider a wide range of possibilities, then assuming that those possibilities don't exist. It's what's known as a failure of imagination, and it's the basis of why the argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.
Dave

I'm trying to be as imaginative as possible but for instance you should know that the columns were all much thicker at the base than at the top so if you hit the top with your hammer you hit it at the weaker point as if it was the top of a pyramide so there is absolutely no way how a huge mechanical constraint could propagate down a structure which is thicker and thicker because either this constraint destroys the weaker part at the top and stop propagating or it does not destroy it and propagates but then it is for sure not a strong enough mechanical constraint to destroy anything else below !

THus it is quite obvious that each pancaking floor at the top can only destroy the floor just below it and the mass of the pile driver increases that will destroy in the same way the next floors, just as described by Bazant Greening and co.

No advanced localized front can appear.
Moreover a localized Pancake on one side of the tower is a physical impossibilility: because of the bracing of all trusses a localized collapse would mean that many trusses were shredded in the bulk while the bolts and welding at their extremities were much weaker: another complete nonsense again!

 

[henryco]

L'étage a été tondu de l'extérieur. Il n'y avait aucune déformation à l'extérieur. Les fenêtres ne se sont pas cassées. The exterior did not pancake, the windows were set in the exterior. (My french is not that good, but you don't appear to understand my English very well)

no way how the core (BTW the most resistant part) could collapse in advance without blowing all the windows and even if it could the air could escape above: the conditions for hermiticity are obviously not satisfied. Again look at the north tower collapse at t=7s: this does not even look like a squib, entire exterior floors are blown out!

And what if I do? What if I use a video of the Verinage and it's around 160 km/h? Will you then admit this is a useless pursuit?

It has to be 160km/h much lower the level of the collapse front.

8 years later listening to video and you do, but an entire city on that day didn't? Please. This is foolish. There is no debate, the sound of explosives was not heard by anyone on that day.
If I were really trying I could find that many witnesses that saw aliens. You can always find people to agree with you in this world, no matter how insane your question.
Les survivants n'ont pas entendu d'explosions. Il n'y avait aucun explosif. C'est un fait.
Why do you ignore the fact that no one heard explosions consistent with high explosives. Minor explosions only. That's all.

Massive collective hallucinations on 9/11 :
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html
Over insane witnesses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2A8VMg_B64

 

[henryco]

You seem to feel that there was little contained pressure and wind velocity within the towers as a result of the collapse.

Please explain where the (200' x 200' x 10 story/second x 12'/story) x .9 (volume fraction air) = 4.3 million cubic feet/second = 120,000 meters^3/second of air goes.
.

upward

Please explain the "hurricane force winds" that appeared in WTC 1 stairways when WTC2 collapsed. These stairways were connected by hundreds of meters long tunnels below the street level. The tunnels were huge, and included many train tunnels. And yet, the winds were still strong enough to lift men off of their feet.

blast of explosions occuring many floors upstairs would explain this much better!

Pressures equalize. But failures do not. The weakest component (window) fails, and in doing so, relieves the local pressure. This is why the ejecta was seen only in a few locations. And why the pulse is as sudden as it is: the pressure built up until the window broke.
.

Not in case the over pressure is an impulse as it has to be to produce such sudden massive ejections at such speeds. If you have such an impulse on a given window it is completely nonsense not to have it on another window several meters away!
Please again look at the massive ejections at t=7s in the North tower video on the West face.

 

[henryco]

Fred, have you ever actually witnessed a controlled demolition where explosives were used?

if you had, you would know that the explosives are not only loud, but you can feel the shock wave of the blasts hitting your chest cavity (your lungs). This carries quite a distance.

it is quite a distinctive feeling, one that would have been noted by all present.

Absolutely no one there that day reported this effect.

Of course people and concrete near the explosions were pulverized just in the same way. The Huge explosions were witnessed by many many people which had to be far away enough or protected by the screening effect of several upper floors as certainly was the survivors of stairwell B who reported noise (which does not mean absence of explosion) and wind.

Again and looking at the photo posted by Sam.I.Am the question is : where are the 90 floors that should have pancaked and accumulated over and around these core columns near stairwell B ? This is just crazy!