Merged Henri van Breda - family murders / Did he do it?

[Octavo]

Henri van Breda is the 20 year old survivor and chief suspect of a brutal family murder. Both his parents and his older brother were axed to death. His 16 year old sister is stable, but with serious injuries.

The police investigation at this point is focused on Henri as the killer.

Initial news report:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...-any-professional-help-needed-lawyer-20150129

Discussion of the '911' call:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...n-describing-Stellenbosch-axe-attack-20150131

The actual audio recording of the call:
http://www.enca.com/south-africa/stellenbosch-victim-describes-how-family-was-attacked

Analysis of recording by a psychologist:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Henri-van-Bredas-reaction-plausible-CyberShrink-20150204

Dewani's lawyer selected for the legal team:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Henri-van-Breda-has-a-legal-team-report-20150206

Latest news about the investigation and Marli's status (the sister)
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Shocking-evidence-emerges-in-axe-attack-case-20150208

 

[Octavo]

At this point, the reports would indicate this is an open and shut case, but as we know by now, going purely by early media reports is folly.

I've learned my lesson from the Pistorius and Dewani trials. If they're anything to go by, Henri is surely innocent

 

[Octavo]

What I would like to know, is just how Marli was able to survive for 4 hours with a slashed jugular.... this is either poor reporting, or her jugular was merely nicked, not slashed. I mean, even a fairly minor cut to the jugular and 4 hours on the floor, should result in death from blood-loss??

 

[Samson]

At this point, the reports would indicate this is an open and shut case, but as we know by now, going purely by early media reports is folly.

I've learned my lesson from the Pistorius and Dewani trials. If they're anything to go by, Henri is surely innocent

And David Bain, matricide, patricide, triple siblicide, or quadruple murder suicide.... so worth a passing glance, because I have come to believe no kid would do this. I hope Joe Karam is watching this one.

 

[Octavo]

And David Bain, matricide, patricide, triple siblicide, or quadruple murder suicide.... so worth a passing glance, because I have come to believe no kid would do this. I hope Joe Karam is watching this one.

If he really did this and he really did wait 4 hours to call the cops, WHY would he leave Marli alive? She's awake now and I assume the cops have or are interviewing her extensively. If Henri did it, she's going to know about it.

I mean, the way the news is written, it's a slam-dunk, but none of it makes sense. Why leave Marli alive? Why wait so long to call the cops? Did he try and fake evidence in that time or move the bodies or what? What was he doing?

Also, note how the articles all use unnamed sources close to the investigation. One has to wonder just how much of it is honest and unbiased.

 

[Samson]

If he really did this and he really did wait 4 hours to call the cops, WHY would he leave Marli alive? She's awake now and I assume the cops have or are interviewing her extensively. If Henri did it, she's going to know about it.

I mean, the way the news is written, it's a slam-dunk, but none of it makes sense. Why leave Marli alive? Why wait so long to call the cops? Did he try and fake evidence in that time or move the bodies or what? What was he doing?

Also, note how the articles all use unnamed sources close to the investigation. One has to wonder just how much of it is honest and unbiased.

My first thoughts were the kid on reading the first report, but I see the world very differently in the last few years, first thoughts are just first thoughts.
As an aside, I have never heard more people intone the same phrase, "guilty as sin" than when asking their Pistorius view, but rich man ruins his life with no hope of getting away with it troubled me.
This case does looks different, did sister just look dead?

 

[anglolawyer]

I am unable to hear the recording for some reason. I will try later. In one of the reports its suggested there was a delay of some hours before he contacted the authorities and that he had been knocked out in the interim. I saw no reference to any head injury, however. Cuts and bruises to the arms could be defensive wounds but might also have been inflicted by the victims if he were the attacker, or self-inflicted. If he was chopping them up himself then he may have acquired some blood on his clothes or made prints in blood on the floor.

It's a gated community with CCTV so the axe murderer had to climb one and escape detection from the other. No reports of anything stolen. Wonder what the motive was. Marli will tell all if and when she wakes up.

Provisional verdict: guilty, but it will be interesting to see how the SA police go about fouling the case up. They are off to a good start releasing the 911 call (edited) to the media and pointlessly refusing to name the victims.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Hmm. We will need way more information.

Our first task is to decide what kind of murder this was.

1. Was it personal cause, either from strife within the family or because someone in the family had an enemy?

2. Was it murder in the course of criminal enterprise?

3. Was it random violence by a disturbed individual?

4. Was it political violence?

I have put these in what I think is the most likely order of probability.

 

[Octavo]

Marli will tell all if and when she wakes up.

She's already awake, but apparently only able to answer basic yes/no questions at this point. Hopefully she will improve.

Provisional verdict: guilty, but it will be interesting to see how the SA police go about fouling the case up. They are off to a good start releasing the 911 call (edited) to the media and pointlessly refusing to name the victims.

hahaha, yes indeed, the ineptitude of the police force here is legendary. I just cannot fathom any sort of motive. It'll all come out in due course, hopefully.

 

[anglolawyer]

She's already awake, but apparently only able to answer basic yes/no questions at this point. Hopefully she will improve.

Uh oh

hahaha, yes indeed, the ineptitude of the police force here is legendary. I just cannot fathom any sort of motive. It'll all come out in due course, hopefully.

I suppose inheritance suggests itself but presently we lack any kind of back story. Was the family wealthy, is their any relevant history etc? The case is nicely balanced on the cusp on one side of which is the theory that he did it, a theory ripe for support by all kinds of confirmation bias. As with Dewani, we want real evidence, not psycho-babble about the 911 call etc. And it's entirely possible Marli will not be able to remember a thing or alternatively that her recollections will not agree with the physical evidence.

This is one of the problems with these cases. We aren't allowed to conduct scientific studies in which we hack to death entire families to see what things should look like when we have finished. We end up having to rely on blood spatter experts, some of whom have been known to exceed their remit.

 

[Samson]

Uh oh




I suppose inheritance suggests itself but presently we lack any kind of back story. Was the family wealthy, is their any relevant history etc? The case is nicely balanced on the cusp on one side of which is the theory that he did it, a theory ripe for support by all kinds of confirmation bias. As with Dewani, we want real evidence, not psycho-babble about the 911 call etc. And it's entirely possible Marli will not be able to remember a thing or alternatively that her recollections will not agree with the physical evidence.

This is one of the problems with these cases. We aren't allowed to conduct scientific studies in which we hack to death entire families to see what things should look like when we have finished. We end up having to rely on blood spatter experts, some of whom have been known to exceed their remit.

Currently David Bain is my best frame of reference. HE DELAYED calling emergency for 20 minutes, which looked terrible to the wise public....

Please refrain from making any inference from what I may or may not think here.
(paraphrase I have no idea yet, the case is interesting either way)

 

[anglolawyer]

Currently David Bain is my best frame of reference. HE DELAYED calling emergency for 20 minutes, which looked terrible to the wise public....

Please refrain from making any inference from what I may or may not think here.
(paraphrase I have no idea yet, the case is interesting either way)

You are either going to have to fill us in on David Bain or start another thread.

 

[Octavo]

Uh oh

Indeed!

I suppose inheritance suggests itself but presently we lack any kind of back story. Was the family wealthy, is their any relevant history etc? The case is nicely balanced on the cusp on one side of which is the theory that he did it, a theory ripe for support by all kinds of confirmation bias. As with Dewani, we want real evidence, not psycho-babble about the 911 call etc. And it's entirely possible Marli will not be able to remember a thing or alternatively that her recollections will not agree with the physical evidence.

Well, they live on a golf estate in Stellenbosch and can afford decent private health insurance, so they're mid-upper middle class at least in terms of wealth. Stellenbosch is varsity town and a prime wine-growing region, so property in the area is quite expensive.

Hmm. We will need way more information.

Our first task is to decide what kind of murder this was.

1. Was it personal cause, either from strife within the family or because someone in the family had an enemy?

2. Was it murder in the course of criminal enterprise?

3. Was it random violence by a disturbed individual?

4. Was it political violence?

I have put these in what I think is the most likely order of probability.

Political violence is exceptionally unlikely, I would have thought. There are plenty of political targets in Stellenbosch if that was the motivation. The University of Stellenbosch is an Afrikaans language university and is still vaguely regarded as a holdout of Afrikaanerdom. I'm sure there are still plenty of old profs and deans from the bad old days of apartheid in the area.

Criminal enterprise? Doubtful. Nothing was stolen and despite our gun control laws, it's not hard for criminals to obtain firearms. If they were determined enough to break into a house on a golf estate (which are gated, patrolled and generally considered safer than usual), I would have expected the crims to be carrying something more than just an axe.

I'm left only with 1 and 3 as plausible.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Political violence is exceptionally unlikely, I would have thought. There are plenty of political targets in Stellenbosch if that was the motivation. The University of Stellenbosch is an Afrikaans language university and is still vaguely regarded as a holdout of Afrikaanerdom. I'm sure there are still plenty of old profs and deans from the bad old days of apartheid in the area.

Criminal enterprise? Doubtful. Nothing was stolen and despite our gun control laws, it's not hard for criminals to obtain firearms. If they were determined enough to break into a house on a golf estate (which are gated, patrolled and generally considered safer than usual), I would have expected the crims to be carrying something more than just an axe.

I'm left only with 1 and 3 as plausible.

My thinking is it could have been political violence if the father was involved in something that made him a target of a radical group. I doubt it but it's possible.

I read something that implied the murder weapon was left at the crime scene and appeared to be a newly purchased ax. Have you heard anything about that?

 

[Dissolution]

Very odd clip of the phone call, where both people involved act a bit strangely, but that's probably not unusual in those circumstances.
It's release or leak seems pretty odd, too.

Early days, but you'd have thought that the sister was the key to this one, unless she can't remember what happened.
A professional investigation would be nice this time.

 

[anglolawyer]

Very odd clip of the phone call, where both people involved act a bit strangely, but that's probably not unusual in those circumstances.
It's release or leak seems pretty odd, too.

Early days, but you'd have thought that the sister was the key to this one, unless she can't remember what happened.
A professional investigation would be nice this time.

It's even possible that even if she says Henri did it her recollection would be open to challenge.

As a matter of practicality, how do you wipe out a family group including two adult males with an axe? Surely, there will be noise and screaming, alerting the sleeping male and provoking resistance, even if you have put the first one out of action, and the females aren't entirely defenceless either. It seems a very messy business and one likely to leave behind a good deal of telling evidence.

 

[Octavo]

A slightly more up to date and credible news item:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2015/02/06/van-breda-family-backs-henri-all-the-way

My thinking is it could have been political violence if the father was involved in something that made him a target of a radical group. I doubt it but it's possible.

I read something that implied the murder weapon was left at the crime scene and appeared to be a newly purchased ax. Have you heard anything about that?

There isn't a lot of information available on Martin (the dad). He was apparently working on a business plan for a new private school. Certainly there aren't any obvious signs of political activity from him.

As for the axe, all I can go by are the news reports:

Police have established that the axe used as the murder weapon was brand-new. Now they are on a hunt to find out where it was bought and by whom.

 

[anglolawyer]

A slightly more up to date and credible news item:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2015/02/06/van-breda-family-backs-henri-all-the-way



There isn't a lot of information available on Martin (the dad). He was apparently working on a business plan for a new private school. Certainly there aren't any obvious signs of political activity from him.

As for the axe, all I can go by are the news reports:

From your link:

André van Breda, the twin brother of multi-millionaire businessman Martin van Breda, said the family would stand behind Henri, 20, "no matter what".

also

Pressure is mounting on the police because of what is being assumed to be a lack of progress in the investigation, 10 days after the murders at the De Zalze Golf Estate.

Not an aid to calm and objective enquiry.

 

[Dissolution]

It's even possible that even if she says Henri did it her recollection would be open to challenge.

I agree. The police would have to back up any statement with more evidence.

As a matter of practicality, how do you wipe out a family group including two adult males with an axe? Surely, there will be noise and screaming, alerting the sleeping male and provoking resistance, even if you have put the first one out of action, and the females aren't entirely defenceless either. It seems a very messy business and one likely to leave behind a good deal of telling evidence.

There would be various ways, but taking out the sleeping male first would be one way to start, assuming one of them was asleep.
One whack to the head and that might be it. Could be pretty quiet, too.

Not really enough to go on at the moment.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree. The police would have to back up any statement with more evidence.



There would be various ways, but taking out the sleeping male first would be one way to start, assuming one of them was asleep.
One whack to the head and that might be it. Could be pretty quiet, too.

Not really enough to go on at the moment.

You have to bump him off and the wife, who might start screaming (any screams heard from neighbouring property? How about signs of a break-in?) and then the other male and then the sister. I can imagine a lot of commotion. The layout of the house showing where everybody slept would be interesting.

And the killer used and left behind a new axe. Hmm. Are guns hard to come by in SA? I guess an axe is quieter so long as you can be sure about the no screaming part and you aren't too squeamish. Is it easy to kill four people with an axe? Do you need some training?