help with qigong debunking

[Kilik]

About the Asian thing. I've met several asians, and my brother knows one guy from China, who thinks it all nonsense.

I think they might be insecure in there position in their new country. Trying to be more western, or else they actually believe all this school stuff too extremely and absolutely. I don't know.

Skepticism probably has nothing to do with race, but more with upbringing.

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

I said-

"What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous feelings, and thickness or just a strong magnetic force. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think."

Moderate amounts of exercise, running, claisthenics, weights etc. Don't do this. Even if you do alot.

Measuring qi might be difficult becaue in it's most basic sense, it is simply influence or relationship. It might be like measuring an orbit, it's only seen or felt because of what it effects.

Hoo boy. Here we go again.

Kilik, please do me a favour. List one thing in the world that you don't believe in. Just one. Then I'm going to post 20 links from disreputable sites that only try and further their own delisions.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: On this forum, there are quite a few martial artists. Probably in total, we have hundreds of years of experience between us. Noone here has seen any evidence of 'qi'. What does this tell you?

If 'The Force' existed, everyone would train to be Jedis. If 'Qi' exists, why can't everyone light candles with their fingers and jump 10 feet in the air?

Honestly, why do you think that is?

 

[Kilik]

I wouldn't come here to get info on MAs. I practice several myself.

Not everyone has access to tradtional practices, not everyone can find a teacher. However, it is still pretty damn popular for something that was not as openly shown for so many years through history.

Some martial arts don't have a concept of qi, and don't develop it in practice. Some do.

For things I am not convinced of, I think others on here have said all there is to say, so there is not a whole lot of point in me talking about those topics. Oh, I don't believe in hypnotism shows.

 

[Phrost]

My friend's not Asian, is neither is the guy who (I suspect) got him into this nonsense. He has started taking martial arts lessons, from a bona fide woo-woo (Creation "Science", including Diluvian nonsense, humans and dinosaurs side by side, and the rest; not to mention the fact that he once tried to convince myself and other partygoers that he was a "vampire slayer"... yes, he used the word "slayer" a la Buffy). I've done my best to simply remove the bad influence, but there's only so far I can go. Similarly, printing out a bunch of references and just plopping them on my friend's lap is a bit overt. I find education works better if the student comes to the understanding himself.

Anyway, again thanks for all your help.

What martial art does/did he study? Perhaps it's a minimal contact one like Taekwondo or McDojo Karate.

I imagine he could stand to get some sense knocked into him. People who train realistically (full contact, full resistance) tend to have a more realistic understanding of their limitations. Just as people who are properly educated (advanced degrees in a science) tend to have a more scientific understanding of the world.

Your friend, I'm sorry to say, is just gullible. He probably has this poster on his wall:

 

[Ashles]

"What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous feelings, and thickness or just a strong magnetic force, in a strong current. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think."

Jeez...

Okay electrical energy, heat and magnetic force are measurable.

So either these forces are really generated and we can measure them - yet this has never happened.
Or they aren't actually being generated and your perceptions are playing tricks on you.

Either way, it doesn't look too good for the existence of Chi.

But never mind - you 'know' it exists.

Fine, I'll continue to 'know' that it doesn't.
And that reality currently seems to match my beliefs on the subject.

 

[Kilik]

That's an arbitrary use of the term "reality"

Qi is really a new thing in the west. It isn't totally understood or studied. Yet.

 

[Bronze Dog]

If all these qi/chi/whatever believers could do half the things they say they can, I'd have signed up already. I mean, who doesn't fantasize about that sort of thing?

McDojo Karate

I love that expression. If I ever sign up for martial arts lessons, I'll want the real thing. For the money, I figure it's better to gain an emergency can of whoop[keister] (any maybe lose a little bit of my belly), than some mushy self-esteem thing.

 

[Kilik]

If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.

 

[Ashles]

If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.

Wow. Another documentary huh?

That's certainly usually the best way to learn about hard science.

Nothing on TV is ever done for sensationalism or ratings. Certainly not in documentaries.

By the way, how do you hit someone in the liver? As opposed to the abdomen or ribs?

 

[Kilik]

Abdomen and liver overlap to some degree obviously. A good body blow under the ribs you should feel in the liver I think. A good body blow is sometimes called a liver shot.

You'd have to see the documentary to see how hard the guy was getting hit and exactly where. THe main point is that, I think some people often view demonstrations of taking blows to be set up, and the hit is only done in the exact right spots where it can be taken. The one on A&E was real though, real hard power on real targets.

 

[Ashles]

I cannot think of an area of the body that, if hit, I would describe as getting punched in the liver. The liver is behind the ribs.
You cannot get punched in the liver.

Look where the liver is

You would have to either punch through someone's ribs, or up through part of the surrounding digestive system.
If that had happened to him, he would have been intantly hospitalised.

So it's a nice visceral sounding description you provided Kilik, but obviously incorrect.

And can you explain what any of this has got to do with Qigong or Chi or anything?

So the guy is prepared to get hit hard on TV. What does that demonstrate?

 

[Bronze Dog]

So the guy is prepared to get hit hard on TV. What does that demonstrate?

Wasn't that one of the things Houdini did? As far as I can tell, it's just toughness mixed with intelligent methods of handling force, momentum, and all that stuff to minimize the damage done.

 

[Kilik]

It's not really a qigong term. It's more a boxing term or kickboxing term. It's a correct term becaues it's used. Can't blame me if it's "technically" not correct, I didn't invent it. But if you take a good body shot, you may start thinking of it as a liver hit.

However, regardless of style, a powerful punch to a good target, is a good punch to a good target. So IMAist also do liver hits, but don't necessarily call it that.

As for houdini, I'd have to see the hits he took to see if they could compare.

 

[Donks]

If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.

What is the documentary supposed to show? Was the guy hitting using Qigong or the guy getting hit? Was either of them responding differently than someone not using Qigong?

 

[Kilik]

Both were using qigong. A hit like that could drop me, and probably most people I think. Even a fighter or MAist.

 

[Phrost]

I love that expression. If I ever sign up for martial arts lessons, I'll want the real thing. For the money, I figure it's better to gain an emergency can of whoop[keister] (any maybe lose a little bit of my belly), than some mushy self-esteem thing.

Yeah, you have to specify that because there are some really good Karate schools out there (usually Kyokushin).

This video explains the difference between real, and BS training better than I could here:

www.bullshido.com/videos/sbg2.wmv

Kilik, would you volunteer to have me kick you in the liver?

Please?

 

[Kilik]

I think I'll pass. Though maybe we could have some sort of kicking contest? A two way thing? I would suggest the nerve on the side of the leg as the target rather than the liver, more my level. No just kidding, I don't need unnecessary hits. Hard qigong is not something I really do that much. Just very basic stuff.

 

[Ashles]

It's not really a qigong term. It's more a boxing term or kickboxing term. It's a correct term becaues it's used. Can't blame me if it's "technically" not correct, I didn't invent it.

But you didn't actually use any kickboxing 'term'. You simply wrote:

there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen

So your post wasn't "technically" incorrect, it was just incorrect.

It was only in a subsequent post you started referring to a "liver shot". But that isn't relevent either as it is only an expression, rather than a literal description.

But if you take a good body shot, you may start thinking of it as a liver hit.

Maybe, but that wouldn't be what it was.
An actually bruised liver is very serious and you would be hospitalised.

However, regardless of style, a powerful punch to a good target, is a good punch to a good target. So IMAist also do liver hits, but don't necessarily call it that.

No they don't. This is incorrect.
Nobody punches anyone else with any intention of doing damge to their liver in any form of martial art practice or exhibition whatsoever.

Some information on a bruised liver

If a fall or blow to the abdomen, right flank, or right lower chest is followed by abdominal pain that is worsened by pressing on the right upper quadrant, a torn or bruised liver should be considered. The victim is at risk for severe internal bleeding and should be observed for signs of shock. Evacuate him as soon as possible.

I am being very precise about the language used here because this is an excellent example of how expressions, and inaccurate descriptions can create false impressions about Martial Arts. And how a little information about Martial Arts can be very misleading.

You have inadvertantly made a very good point here Kilik.

Also, you claim to practise several martial arts yourself, but your posts certainly do not give that impression.

 

[Kilik]

It's liver shot. You might call it a shot to the ribs, or body, but the common term I've heard is liver shot.

Read my posts more, many schools are going to say liver shot, and I wouldn't really say they're "wrong".

 

[Ashles]

It's liver shot. You might call it a shot to the ribs, or body, but the common term I've heard is liver shot.

Read my posts more, many schools are going to say liver shot, and I wouldn't really say they're "wrong".

They could call it an alien spaceship if they like.

But it doesn't change the fact that it isn't an actual blow to the liver any more than a 'helicopter' move in breakdancing would allow you to hover.
It is a 'term' or 'expression' that does not accurately represent what it describes.