help with qigong debunking

Fair enough. Think of it as a body blow.

But good fighters use the term and it is accepted if not technically correct.
 
Kilik said:
I think I'll pass. Though maybe we could have some sort of kicking contest? A two way thing? I would suggest the nerve on the side of the leg as the target rather than the liver, more my level. No just kidding, I don't need unnecessary hits. Hard qigong is not something I really do that much. Just very basic stuff.
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Oh well. I'll settle for a groin shot then, just to make sure you don't reproduce.

How about it?
 
Kilik said:
I simply useed it as a term meaning a body blow to the rib or body
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Kilik, this is getting ridiculous. your first post on the subject is available for anyone to see:
If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.
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You specifically said liver, not as part of the term "liver shot" but simply as a description of where someone was being hit. You mention ribs and abdomen as other areras he was getting hit in so you were making a distinction between the areas.

You can't really say you were refering to a "liver shot" in that post as you don't mention the term at all.

I am only continuing to reply on the subject as it appears you are now trying to imply you meant "liver shot" all along when you clearly didn't.
 
I meant, a liver shot as it is called. But on the show I was talking about, the taget wasn't the exact same spot every time. The guy took repeated body blows, some I would say appeared the same as what is called a "liver blow". That's what I meant.
 
Phrost said:
Oh well. I'll settle for a groin shot then, just to make sure you don't reproduce.

How about it?
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So you want to Rochambeau him?

Michael
 
Kilik said:
I meant, a liver shot as it is called. But on the show I was talking about, the taget wasn't the exact same spot every time. The guy took repeated body blows, some I would say appeared the same as what is called a "liver blow". That's what I meant.
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Okay, so you agree that his actual liver was not being hit?
 
Okay, maybe. I am not an expert on internal organ damage or impact.

It would sure feel like the liver though.
 
Kilik said:
Okay, maybe. I am not an expert on internal organ damage or impact.

It would sure feel like the liver though.
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I'm betting it wouldn't.
You must go for a bruised liver treatment if you have the following symptoms, fever, chills, nausea, vomiting, loss of appetite, weight loss, weakness, jaundice. Additional symptoms that may be associated with a bruised liver are sweating and excessive abdominal pain.
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That's why you really wouldn't want yours hit.

Quote from here
 
Let's try to get back on topic:

I don't see much paranormal about being able to take a hit. As I posted earlier:

As far as I can tell, it's just toughness mixed with intelligent methods of handling force, momentum, and all that stuff to minimize the damage done.
 
Yes, sorry that liver derail did go on a bit. :)

Is that one of the claims of qigong? Increased toughness and resilience to being hit?

It does sound like The Force" in that it appears to be capable of almost any ability.
 
Resistance to strikes is often linked to qigong under the heading of 'Iron Shirt' or 'Gold Bell Cover'.

And in the circus atmosphere of martial arts, there is a good deal of 'demonstration' of purported abilities along those lines...lying on nails/glass/swords, having sticks broken across various body surfaces, accepting kicks and punches, etc.

Some practitioners suggest 2 basic schools of such development, internal and external.

And along the lines of theories that qigong is nothing more than visualization, breath and muscle control, and perhaps some fascial 'toughening', there might be something to some of it.

But most of it seems too over the top to be believed.
 
Kilik
Moderate amounts of exercise, running, claisthenics, weights etc. Don't do this. Even if you do alot.
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I take it you’ve never exercised before.

Measuring qi might be difficult becaue in it's most basic sense, it is simply influence or relationship. It might be like measuring an orbit, it's only seen or felt because of what it effects.
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If it affects something physically, it can be measured, there may have to be highly specialized sensors used, but the effect at least could be measured.

Ossai
 
Iron Shirt worked great in the Boxer Rebellion.

Oh wait...
 
To blatantly direct attention back to me and my question for a moment ;) , I don't know specifically what Martial Arts my friend is studying, but I do know that the moron who's teaching him rambles incessently about several styles, including Aikido, Taekwondo, and Jeet Kun Do. What his skill level in the relevant arts is, I don't know either.

As for taking hits, I know they do that as well, including full-contact sparring (helmets, gloves, footpads, and mouthguards) and shin-hardening (by cracking their shins together, or against firm surfaces).

So, I don't think it's a lack of real pain that continues his belief. Possibly he's just mistaking concentration (focusing on ignoring/blocking out pain) with actual healing?

Also I may not have been clear before when I described the trainer (NOT my friend) as someone who believed in Creation "Science" etc. My friend has a solid grounding in evolutionary theory, perception and cognition, and the scientific method. He certainly does not have a UFO poster on his wall. He just can't seem to realize that what he's "experiencing" as qigong is all in is head. Really, as far as I know this is the only place he's let his critical gaze falter. His trainer, on the other hand, will believe anything you show him on TV.

As for Kilik's continued interruptions and digressions, I can only say this: I don't believe in qigong, or else I wouldn't be trying to convince my friend to stop believing in it; no matter how many bad websites you direct me to, I'm not going to change my mind. In my original question I asked for sources to help set his head right, not for a debate. If you want to debate the merits of qi and related flimflammery, you probably shouldn't do it on a skeptics forum, not unless you've got some real evidence to back it up. How about tracking down some of these "true masters" or whatever you called them, and asking them to try out for the JREF prize? Then they could use the million to set up a school where they could teach their arts to a wider audience, blessing that many more people with their ancient wisdom.

So, for a final time, I thank everyone who has suggested sources or options. If a debate ensues, I hope you enjoy it, but I'm disabling email notification, and I probably won't be checking this thread again.
 
Deadlytoque said:
To blatantly direct attention back to me and my question for a moment ;) ,
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Oh my goodness. Captain selfish or what? :)

I don't know specifically what Martial Arts my friend is studying, but I do know that the moron who's teaching him rambles incessently about several styles, including Aikido, Taekwondo, and Jeet Kun Do. What his skill level in the relevant arts is, I don't know either.
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Even my very basic knowledge of martial arts tells me that those are three very disparate disciplines.

I have studied Aikido and Taekwondo at a fairly basic level and neither involved even the slightest degree of degree of "Chi" in my experience.
Taekwondo in particular is a very modern martial art develpoed in Korea with very little BS attached. It might not be the most efficient martial art (a lot of spinning and leg work) but it is great for exercise and suppleness.

Jeet Kun Do is Bruce Lee's very BS free martial art. As far as I am aware Bruce Lee was fairly against a lot of the nonsense perpetuated by older more mystical martial arts and very much rebelled against them.

Again I am only going by my own experience and I know there are far more knowledgeable posters here so if I am incorrect on any of this please let me know.

But it sounds like this guy has picked some strangely non-mystical Martial Arts to hang his Qigong nonsense from.

As for taking hits, I know they do that as well, including full-contact sparring (helmets, gloves, footpads, and mouthguards) and shin-hardening (by cracking their shins together, or against firm surfaces).

So, I don't think it's a lack of real pain that continues his belief. Possibly he's just mistaking concentration (focusing on ignoring/blocking out pain) with actual healing?
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Sounds likely.

Also I may not have been clear before when I described the trainer (NOT my friend) as someone who believed in Creation "Science" etc. My friend has a solid grounding in evolutionary theory, perception and cognition, and the scientific method. He certainly does not have a UFO poster on his wall. He just can't seem to realize that what he's "experiencing" as qigong is all in is head. Really, as far as I know this is the only place he's let his critical gaze falter. His trainer, on the other hand, will believe anything you show him on TV.
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That is what is so worrying. If your friend is prepared to believe in one aspect of his trainer's nonsense then it might go one of two ways.
1) He realises how silly one belief is and as a result his trainer loses credibility.
2) He wants to believe so much in one of the beliefs, he starts accepting some of the others.

As for Kilik's continued interruptions and digressions, I can only say this: I don't believe in qigong, or else I wouldn't be trying to convince my friend to stop believing in it; no matter how many bad websites you direct me to, I'm not going to change my mind. In my original question I asked for sources to help set his head right, not for a debate. If you want to debate the merits of qi and related flimflammery, you probably shouldn't do it on a skeptics forum, not unless you've got some real evidence to back it up. How about tracking down some of these "true masters" or whatever you called them, and asking them to try out for the JREF prize? Then they could use the million to set up a school where they could teach their arts to a wider audience, blessing that many more people with their ancient wisdom.
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Kilik does tend to debate by the tactic of link overload. But if you actually visit the sites (and it takes a while) they tend not to contain any actual evidence.
Of sourse if they did then we would all know about it already due to the groundbreaking nature of the claims.

So, for a final time, I thank everyone who has suggested sources or options. If a debate ensues, I hope you enjoy it, but I'm disabling email notification, and I probably won't be checking this thread again.
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Really? Why?
 
Personally, I think you should find another friend.

And in other news, we've managed to get a hold of a video of one of the internet's biggest chi woos, "Chrono" of the "Ki Sanctuary" (http://kisanctuary.chaosmagic.com) "powering up".

Some crafty fellow has added the infamous "numa numa" song to it, which makes it all the more entertaining.

For those of you not aware of this guy, he (and I'm not joking) believes he learned a "deadly meteor storm" chi technique from his grandfather, can see auras, and can transform into a werewolf.

He's also somewhat infamous for getting into a lengthy argument on another forum over him "astrally raping" a Sonic the Hedgehog fan fiction character in what has to be one of the lowest points in human history on the Internet.

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=161

This is the company which you keep, DeadlyT.
 
Originally posted by Ashles
Jeet Kun Do is Bruce Lee's very BS free martial art. As far as I am aware Bruce Lee was fairly against a lot of the nonsense perpetuated by older more mystical martial arts and very much rebelled against them.
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Note to self: Watch more Bruce Lee movies.
 
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