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Hello from a non-skeptic

Belz... said:
Fortunately that doesn't make them true. Otherwise every supernatural claim in the universe would also be true.

Why do you state this as a matter of fact when it's entirely false ?

Some researchers ? Who ? And why would they be investigating the association of something we know exists with something we DON'T ?
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He's long gone, Belz.
 
Loss Leader said:
He's long gone, Belz.
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On a related note, it's a hug-fest over there.

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad to see we can get along, at least sometimes (Edit: thanks to Gao and Aqualung for reaching out). Hope we can restart a discussion on a more honest footing, without hidden agendas or prejudices.
 
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AdMan said:
On a related note, it's a hug-fest over there.

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad to see we can get along, at least sometimes (Edit: thanks to Gao and Aqualung for reaching out). Hope we can restart a discussion on a more honest footing, without hidden agendas or prejudices.
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I've got an Amega wand I can sell you...:D

CharlesStewart said:
Certainly if there are any answers to be found, I very much doubt that they will come from any one individual, but as the result of a "collective effort". I have already shared what I possibly could over there, and if I may have succeeded in at least raising that "little shadow of a doubt", then my little incursion was even more succesful, I hope, than I could possibly have hoped for.
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Grrrr...
 
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AdMan said:
Just making an effort to not be a dick... :D

I know how you feel. Let's not pretend either that that latest incursion was in any way persuasive enough to raise doubts in anyone's mind here.
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I can tell. But the point is, he claimed up and down that he came here to get info...then to shake pedestals...now he is claiming he came here to convince (instill doubt):rolleyes:. His own buddies are telling him that's not where they are coming from. He is running amok.:)

Truthseeker said:
This is a private forum provided by Carol Bowman to give people a place to share their experiences, and explore the subject without fear of being ridiculed. I, myself, nor anyone else is here to convince to believe in reincarnation.
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I certainly don't have a problem with this. I find the whole thing humorous.
 
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Olowkow said:
But the point is, he claimed up and down that he came here to get info...then to shake pedestals...now he is claiming he came here to convince (instill doubt):rolleyes:. His own buddies are telling him that's not where they are coming from. He is running amok.:)
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I agree. Problem is I don't think he's being honest even now. Originally, it was all about "shaking pedestals" and/or "poking skeptics" and he's still trying to rationalize that and come up with nobler reasons, after the fact.
 
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Olowkow said:
CharlesStewart said:
Certainly if there are any answers to be found, I very much doubt that they will come from any one individual, but as the result of a "collective effort". I have already shared what I possibly could over there, and if I may have succeeded in at least raising that "little shadow of a doubt", then my little incursion was even more succesful, I hope, than I could possibly have hoped for.
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Grrrr...
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Now that you mention it I seem to vaguely recall a distant memory of being a WWII Luftwaffe pilot and dying when I flew my DC-9 into a volcano full of fugitive aliens.

The pink rhinestone-studded uniforms, the greased pigs, dressing my war horse in assless chaps just before the battle despite the fact that I was going to be flying a blimp... It's like it was yesterday.

I'm converting. No more JREF-style dickishness for me. I'm a reincarnate.
 
AdMan said:
What's funny (well, maybe not so funny) is that even in his last post he kept repeating the lie that he'd come here just to ask a question on quantum physics.
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It was pointed out to him on the very first page that this was the wrong subforum for that, and he was directed to the right one. Yet he never asked a mod to move the thread. Go figure.
 
majamin said:
Love the sig, btw ... who is Adrian Pengelly?
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Mr Pengelly is a New Age "healer" who claimed the ability to cure cancer. As a result of being exposed by British sceptics he eventually fell foul of the Cancer Act of 1939, which makes it illegal for any medically unqualified person to offer to treat cancer. He claimed that the publicity surrounding his court appearance brought him hundreds of new clients, yet shortly afterwards he filed for bankruptcy!

More info here:

http://www.spanglefish.com/adrianpengellyexposed/index.asp
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/sho...-Astonishing-claims?highlight=adrian+pengelly
 
Sunniva says:[/B]First, let me say that I always enjoy hearing from a so-called 'skeptic' (I think calling you a non-believer wouldn't be far-fetched) and I must say that I do tend to agree with many of your points.

However, one of my biggest concerns about this whole believer vs. non-believer discussion is that there is a constant referring to 'science', 'scientific' and 'experiments', which is easily misunderstood: reincarnation is not and will never be physical science. Many believers use 'science' and 'scientific experiments' as a label to justify their beliefs because you can't dispute science, but as you well know - you can easily dispute reincarnation. It's the good old 'absence of evidence/evidence of absence'-discussion.

No one here is able to prove scientifically that they're right. Reincarnation is a belief and we believe in it, we believe it's a rational belief, but at the same time are fully aware that some people find it irrational. There are doctors in psychology, who are researching the phenomenom, carrying out research, which is based on statistics. I don't think we could call it 'scientific experiments', because that label might give the wrong impression, but it is a way to investigate this phenomenom in an objective, scientific way - collecting evidence and analysing it, concluding that some people apparantly seem to remember things that they shouldn't be able to. You may dispute the results if you want to, but they still remain a fact.

So that's the science part of reincarnation - the statistics. The psychologists (do they count as scientists in your book?) are further more working on several theories on how to explain the statistics. Some people find proof in the hundreds of thousands, of accounts by ordinary people, who have experienced it and shared it on this forum. But if we have to remain strictly scientific then those accounts do not mean much if taken individually, because there could be many things conteminating people's memories. Those are obviously some of the problems that the psychologists are dealing with in trying to explain the phenomenom. They may get some help brain researchers, but otherwise 'reincarnation' as a scientific subject mainly belongs in the psychological field. If we're having a 'scientific discussion' we must discuss it accordingly: no more 'scientific experiments', no more 'proofs', but much more analysis and 'scientific theory'

One thing I always end up wondering when having these discussion is why we have to prove it. Why does it have to be made scientific? Why can't people just accept that we are a group of people believing in something that we may not be able to prove with hardcore science, but are making us feel good, are helping us in life and may hold answers for us individually? Just as any faith does.

Some people come to this forum in search of answers or support, some because they are curious and others because they seek attention. Some have had experiences that we categorize as past life memories others have not. You can choose to view this forum as a testimony to reincarnation or to lunacy - that's your own decision.

A discussion about proving a spiritual concept between believers and non-believers will always be fruitless, because we, the believers, basically don't care. We believe in reincarnation whether it can be proven scientifically or not, because we have experienced it personally.

I respect, and actually understand, why you can't believe in it. I agree that to have a scientific discussion about proving reincarnation doesn't make sense at this point, because the evidence is not good enough yet and because there are too many (unproven) religious and spiritual concepts intertwined with it. But we can discuss the likely explanations based on the current knowledge supplied to us by psychologists.

Many concepts that are accepted as impregnable science today were born controversial. Only about 150 years ago people didn't believe that the Stone Age existed or that the Earths history couldn't be traced further back than the Great Flood. Science is constantly moving forward, theories change, so as a true scientist I would never rule out the possibility of reincarnation being explained scientifically one day. Mind you, 'explanation' is not the same as 'proof'! If we, as believers, want reincarnation to be scientific, we must accept that it's a theory and thus open for discussion. We must be ready for critical questions and not get personally insulted when our theory is proving not be bulletproof. Instead we must work harder on perfecting it. Afterall we know more about reincarnation than most of our critics, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the arguments. It's a never-ending process, but that's science for you. ]
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That's brilliant woo. I want to marry her (and it has less to do than you think about her photo ;) You can argue with a poster here but I think the people that run that site know it's all bulloney. I joined that site to lite them up but when you read what they write their sincerity comes across.

I'll have at one screwball who thinks he knows the scientific method - but otherwise you don't want to take away what these people have. Many of these people seem to have a precarious hold on reality. This site has a purpose for people who are damaged on some level. Screwing with them isn't helping anyone.
 
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So, it's not possible to scientifically test claims about reincarnation, but scientific tests have been done which support reincarnation. Genius.
 
I had to get outta there... it was starting to make me very sad.

The two threads that Aqualung and Gao were referred to on the forum were about kids and past lives and how to deal with that. I read one thread where it was quite obvious that one of the ladies there has a 3 year old that she's certain was in the NYFD during 9/11...

At first it seems kinda like harmless woo...

And, I wouldn't generally want to judge anyone's parenting because I think that is an intensely personal issue... and the lady seems very nice with good intentions and is clearly committed to being a good mother...

But, parenting a kid under the assumption that they have memories of 9/11 instead of parenting a kid who might have some fear and anxiety ABOUT 9/11 seems to me a very sad decision.

It's not something I would want to tear apart or goof on because it's dealing with a child's mental health and well being. No one over there even asked if the child had been taken to a counselor or anything...

Again, I'm sure they mean well, but, gah.

Nevermind coffee or a dance. It makes me too sad. We can just remain fond pen pals.
 
Senex said:
One thing I always end up wondering when having these discussion is why we have to prove it. Why does it have to be made scientific? Why can't people just accept that we are a group of people believing in something that we may not be able to prove with hardcore science, but are making us feel good, are helping us in life and may hold answers for us individually? Just as any faith does.
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I know she's not posting this here, but I'll answer anyway. :)

Because truth matters. It may seem nice to support someone in an untruth, but there are consequences.

Learning about the potential weak points in human perception is critical to a just society. How many juries have convicted innocent people based on untrue ideas about logic and human perception? Trusting that witnesses are honest and accurate, trusting psychobabble spouted by any given expert, failing to see the weak points in the prosecution's case. How many times have entire populations allowed themselves to be manipulated by evil leaders?

Shutting your mind to reality may make you feel good, but it contributes to very bad things happening to other people.
 
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It occurred to me that the members of the Past Life Forum coming to read this thread could benefit from at least these three sites which are pretty much the gold standard of their genre.

I was surprised to see that "What's the Harm" does not get into reincarnation, but there is still a wealth of information there that these members may find of interest.

http://whatstheharm.net/
http://stopsylvia.com/home/
http://www.talkorigins.org/

Oh yes, please, everyone owes it to himself to watch Derren Brown's Ouija board demonstration. If you have never heard of Derren Brown, you might want to search further on this name.

 
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