Hello from a non-skeptic

[Mirrorglass]

Thank you, Akhenaten! (This site has the best avatars, by the way.)

I read through (most of) the thread and do not feel that Charles was bullied. I'm just saying that I can see why he was overwhelmed, and how maybe the sheer volume of responses to his questions did not help "the cause".

This brushes on something I said before, slightly before Charles' exile.

Simply put, there is no cause.

It's true that this is a forum largely populated by skeptics, and as a result, paranormal claimants will always find their claims questioned. But we are not an uniform group with a common goal. Not all of us agree on all matters. Not all of us like each other. Heck, there are even many firm believers of the paranormal here - they just tend to stay in their own threads. There is no conspiracy to sweep all paranormal ideas under the rug - there are just people, discussing.

If you search the forums, you'll find plenty of small threads where a poster comes in describing a paranormal experience, and is met very politely, although naturally also skeptically. Occasionally the posters realize they've been wrong, occasionally not. But not nearly all get offended.

There are also many threads where the tone of the discussion does border on the offensive, but those threads all have something in common; the paranormal claimants in them seem to have nothing but contempt for anyone who questions their claims.

That is where Charles went wrong. He himself admitted he did not come here to discuss, but to "knock the pedestal" he considered us to sit on. He came here to show us his amazing claims, expecting us to immediately throw away our skepticism and accept his words as an absolute truth, and then berated us for doubting him. As the thread progressed, his contempt became more and more clear, which inevitably led to the destruction of the thread that followed.

I personally am not happy about the way this discussion ended, but I hope that you, and Charles, should he still be reading this, realize that the ending was inevitable. Not because of some evil plan to bully non-skeptics, but because that's what happens when you enter a forum and start explaining how little the people there know.

If the people on Charles' home forum have taken interest on us as a result of the excursion, I'd like to encourage them to join and partake in discussion. If you come in without an agenda, without attempting to show us the errors of our ways, you'll find we aren't such an evil bunch of bullies after all. We're not foreign to the concept of agreeing to disagree, assuming both parties agree to it.

And if you do intend to show us how wrong we all are - well, better bring some strong evidence, because without it you'll get ripped to shreds.

 

[kerikiwi]

And if you do intend to show us how wrong we all are - well, better bring some strong evidence, because without it you'll get ripped to shreds.

Exactly so.

 

[Loss Leader]

plenty of small threads where a poster comes in describing a paranormal experience, and is met very politely, although naturally also skeptically. Occasionally the posters realize they've been wrong, occasionally not. But not nearly all get offended.

I remember the "nice Jewish psychic" thread going a lot like this one. She came in just to show us all how nice and normal a psychic could be. She even tried some readings, I think. But she absolutely could not handle the fact that other posters didn't simply take her at her word.

I'm not surprised that there is a market for credulity. The price for having people believe your claims is believing theirs.

 

[Tommytwonines]

Simply put, there is no cause.

I would say "the cause" is, maybe, to get smart people to stop believing in weird things, to borrow from Michael Shermer. It's not a talking point we're emailing to each other, but isn't that why everyone in this thread engaged Charles and appealed to his reason/common sense, etc.?

 

[Mirrorglass]

I would say "the cause" is, maybe, to get smart people to stop believing in weird things, to borrow from Michael Shermer. It's not a talking point we're emailing to each other, but isn't that why everyone in this thread engaged Charles and appealed to his reason/common sense, etc.?

Who knows? Some people probably would like to get people to stop believing in things. Others take offense in people promoting nonsense. Yet others simply enjoy punching around a woo. Some like the intellectual exercise. Some are just killing time. We're all individuals, and we all have our individual motivations. The idea that all people posting, or even agreeing, on the forums are committed to some educational project is just wrong.

 

[Tommytwonines]

The idea that all people posting, or even agreeing, on the forums are committed to some educational project is just wrong.

Agreed. I didn't mean to say that (in fact, I don't think I did!).

Why I came to JREF:

When I'm online and posting in a forum, it's almost always on a particular screenwriting/film website. Recently one of those threads devolved into a disturbing UFO love fest - weird and irrational. I came here to check out some of the paranormal/skeptic discussions.

One of my favorite books is the "Paranormal Claims" collection edited by Bryan Farha - my brother the physicist got it for me one Christmas. Great stuff. He's the one who first told me about JREF, btw.

Thanks to the person in this thread who recommended the book "Attack of the Unsinkable Rubber Ducks." I bought it for pennies on ebay and look forward to reading it this weekend.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Agreed. I didn't mean to say that (in fact, I don't think I did!).

That's good. I wasn't certain whether that was what you were implying, and more importantly, it's a common misconception among the people who come to preach their own beliefs and end up leaving with a huff of indignation.

Why I came to JREF:

When I'm online and posting in a forum, it's almost always on a particular screenwriting/film website. Recently one of those threads devolved into a disturbing UFO love fest - weird and irrational. I came here to check out some of the paranormal/skeptic discussions.

One of my favorite books is the "Paranormal Claims" collection edited by Bryan Farha - my brother the physicist got it for me one Christmas. Great stuff. He's the one who first told me about JREF, btw.

Thanks to the person in this thread who recommended the book "Attack of the Unsinkable Rubber Ducks." I bought it for pennies on ebay and look forward to reading it this weekend.

Welcome aboard. Willingly learning something new before your tenth post bodes very well for your stay here.

 

[Sparhawk]

mmmmm Ego relish

 

[majamin]

Guys, I rode the wave with you all in as much as I could, but I have to say I am astounded by the way things are conducted over here.

"Beliefs aren't being pampered" = "you're doing it wrong"

I have offered you all the link to Carol Bowman's forum. If you wish to discuss anything further at all on this matter, you know where you can find me. Again I will ask you to respect the beliefs of others in terms of that which you can still not prove.

This seems to be foreshadowing for any "discussion" that may go on there. (Good luck Gao)

I wish you all the best in your quests and in your searches, but would request that you kindly be less rude to newcomers in the future.

We will be sure to apply the same scrutiny to the next one, I assure you.

Lot's of shoulder patting going on there, for poor Charles walked into the lion's cave and came back unharmed, if not even reinforced in his beliefs.

It's all rainbows and unicorns over there ...

Why I came to JREF:

When I'm online and posting in a forum, it's almost always on a particular screenwriting/film website. Recently one of those threads devolved into a disturbing UFO love fest - weird and irrational. I came here to check out some of the paranormal/skeptic discussions.

One of my favorite books is the "Paranormal Claims" collection edited by Bryan Farha - my brother the physicist got it for me one Christmas. Great stuff. He's the one who first told me about JREF, btw.

Thanks to the person in this thread who recommended the book "Attack of the Unsinkable Rubber Ducks." I bought it for pennies on ebay and look forward to reading it this weekend.

Welcome, Tommy. Cool to hear how people come by this place.

 

[dafydd]

Who knows, maybe it's some way to earn them bonus points amongst their believers. Pretty much like some religious people come here to get extra points in their university for the study course. After all, the posts on that other forum surely read that way. Lot's of shoulder patting going on there, for poor Charles walked into the lion's cave and came back unharmed, if not even reinforced in his beliefs.

But then, this is just speculation on my part. But one thing is for sure: reading the thread there makes him an utterly dishonest person in my eyes. To me it seems that he did not come here to gather information, but simply to poke at the people here and then have a laugh at us over there. Quite disgusting.

Greetings,

Chris

Did he really expect the same wide-eyed wonderment that he gets on the Past Lives forum?

 

[Christian Klippel]

Did he really expect the same wide-eyed wonderment that he gets on the Past Lives forum?

Probably not. But then, as he made crystal clear on the forum there, he never was interested in a honest discussion anyways.

BTW, i'm wondering if we could make a "Woo Index", similar to Beaz' Crackpot-Index? After all, the pattern of behavior in discussion is pretty similar among most of the woo believers.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Olowkow]

I am beginning to understand a little better what the nature of the conflict is. Charles apparently came to JREF attempting to get information on a potential scientific justification for his belief in reincarnation, and he was met with firm resistance from people who have knowledge of the science in question.

At the "Reincarnation forum", Sunniva (an administrator) states unequivocally that this is not what believers should be about:

http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=18316

However, this is not a scientific forum. We are not trying to prove anything, it's not our job to do so, and to outsiders it may seem as if we're accepting too much without asking questions, but we're not here to ask critical questions. That's not the purpose of the forum. If people come here and share what they believe are past life memories, it is our job to support them and guide them towards ressources. We can have our own personal opinion about the validity of their experiences, but it's not our place to judge them openly.

When Charles leaves JREF and reports back his unfair or bullying treatment at the hands of unbelievers, and that he intends to return,

Sunniva, if I do feel that I have to again reply over there, I hope I can do it with the clarity and coherence that you have used in your latest post here.

she gives a subtle warning:

Thanks Charles, but it's important that we use the correct terminology and way of argumentation if anything we say should ever be taken seriously

<snip>

I'm beginning to get the impression that much of the belief in reincarnation is just to discuss memories and dreams with like minded friends, and to have some fun fantasizing about what might be. I have read many posts over there, and the question of what is real and what is just fantasy does not come up very often. Some people just don't care, while the skeptic does care if his beliefs are true.

 

[tsig]

That is where Charles went wrong. He himself admitted he did not come here to discuss, but to "knock the pedestal" he considered us to sit on. He came here to show us his amazing claims, expecting us to immediately throw away our skepticism and accept his words as an absolute truth, and then berated us for doubting him. As the thread progressed, his contempt became more and more clear, which inevitably led to the destruction of the thread that followed.

The hilited phrase shows that Charles already had a preconceived idea of skeptics as people puffed up with their own knowledge and closed to any new ideas so instead of reacting to what was actually posted he responded to the stereotype he had in his head thus rendering communication impossible. When that happened he blamed everyone but himself for what was in fact a self induced error.

 

[Robert Oz]

At the "Reincarnation forum", Sunniva (an administrator) states unequivocally that this is not what believers should be about.

I think Sunniva would have been a far better ambassador for belief in reincarnation than Charles was. She seems to recognize reincarnation as a faith-based belief and acknowledges that looking for answers from scientists is either premature or impossible.

She chooses to believe that certain 'memories' are from past lives and is unconcerned about confirmation through objective evidence. She also understands why we don't believe this and is okay with that.

It's called 'being intellectually honest'.

 

[Mirrorglass]

I am beginning to understand a little better what the nature of the conflict is. Charles apparently came to JREF attempting to get information on a potential scientific justification for his belief in reincarnation, and he was met with firm resistance from people who have knowledge of the science in question.

At the "Reincarnation forum", Sunniva (an administrator) states unequivocally that this is not what believers should be about:

http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=18316


When Charles leaves JREF and reports back his unfair or bullying treatment at the hands of unbelievers, and that he intends to return,



she gives a subtle warning:



I'm beginning to get the impression that much of the belief in reincarnation is just to discuss memories and dreams with like minded friends, and to have some fun fantasizing about what might be. I have read many posts over there, and the question of what is real and what is just fantasy does not come up very often. Some people just don't care, while the skeptic does care if his beliefs are true.

I think you've nailed it, pretty much. It's simply a matter of very different environments. The JREF forumites generally enjoy the ruthless critical examination of arguments and accept that this often leads to the discussion heating up. The pursuit of truth is an overriding principle, if not an universally shared goal. On the other hand, the Past Life forums are a place for people to enjoy themselves and talk about a dear hobby of theirs. Questioning other people's claims is openly discouraged, and polite encouragement is given to all ideas.

It's not strange that moving from one forum to other would be a shocking experience. Previously, everything you've said has been met with interest and respect, and then suddenly everyone is demanding evidence and suggesting you might be wrong. It's really no wonder that Charles started feeling persecuted and turned to defensively berating the entire forum, which further fueled the flames of criticism he was so unaccustomed to.

What saddens me is that most of the Past Life forums people observing this story unfold appear to see the inherent criticism of the JREF forums as arrogance. Questioning, doubt and alternative explanations, something integral to critical thinking and truth-seeking, are thought to represent an unwavering conviction that all paranormal experiences are false. Where we see skeptics questioning a dubious claim, they see inquisitioners claiming absolute knowledge.

I would be happy to see this misunderstanding cleared, and even considered signing up for the Past Life forums and attempting to explain it there, but in the end thought better of it. There's no point in starting a feud between the forums, so I'll contend myself with the knowledge that anyone interested can come read this thread.

So, to anyone from the Past Life forums reading this: when we question your claims, it does not mean we're convinced they are false. It means we don't know, and are okay with that. And it means we aren't ready to just accept your ideas as truth, despite not knowing ourselves. We know your experiences are important to you, and don't wish to mock them - but simply telling us about them won't make us adopt new beliefs, any more than our suggestions will make you drop yours.

 

[AdMan]

I think Sunniva would have been a far better ambassador for belief in reincarnation than Charles was. She seems to recognize reincarnation as a faith-based belief and acknowledges that looking for answers from scientists is either premature or impossible.

She chooses to believe that certain 'memories' are from past lives and is unconcerned about confirmation through objective evidence. She also understands why we don't believe this and is okay with that.

It's called 'being intellectually honest'.

You are right, Robert. But if it's all about faith and science doesn't come into it, there's really not much to discuss--we can just agree to disagree.

When believers come to this forum, however, it's almost always the case that (like Charles) they think that science can in fact support their beliefs. Inevitably, this is challenged, often quite forcefully, and believers should be prepared for that.

 

[Robert Oz]

You are right, Robert. But if it's all about faith and science doesn't come into it, there's really not much to discuss--we can just agree to disagree.

When believers come to this forum, however, it's almost always the case that (like Charles) they think that science can in fact support their beliefs. Inevitably, this is challenged, often quite forcefully, and believers should be prepared for that.

I agree, completely.

 

[Nichiro]

while I do not believe in God which has a specific form or such, I have always felt that ,
What is a human being to a Bacetria, God is to Humans.

 

[FSM]

You might want to give credit where credit is due, it was not King Charles:
http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=18316

OHHH, thank you! Tinkerman, you will now live in infamy.

 

[AdMan]

What saddens me is that most of the Past Life forums people observing this story unfold appear to see the inherent criticism of the JREF forums as arrogance. Questioning, doubt and alternative explanations, something integral to critical thinking and truth-seeking, are thought to represent an unwavering conviction that all paranormal experiences are false. Where we see skeptics questioning a dubious claim, they see inquisitioners claiming absolute knowledge.

I think it's related to how some skeptics have historically come across.

Phil Plait's "Don't Be a Dick" talk at TAM8 comes to mind as a way to think about how best to talk to believers.

While I think being a dick has a right place and time (e.g., I'm a HUGE fan of Richard Dawkins and I don't have a problem with the way he talks about religion), I think Phil makes some excellent points.

I'm not saying people were dicks in this thread, but the fact that some skeptics have been in the past helps explain at least in part that perception among believers.

(Apologies for the mild profanity. )