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Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers

First, the Yahoo article was poorly written, which is partly why I created this thread.

"Character' is a loaded term, but I think it encompasses what I'm getting at. I would like to see how lifestyle and personality correlate with alcohol use and morality. Once socioeconomic status has been properly controlled for, I wonder how impulsiveness, self-esteem, self-efficacy, job satisfaction, thrill-seeking behavior, and other characteristics affect the outcome. A wealthy, depressed person who has one drink a day may live a shorter life than a wealthy, happy person. Also, someone may only have one drink a day while maintaining a poor diet.

For the Yahoo article to say, "But even after controlling for nearly all imaginable variables - socioeconomic status, level of physical activity, number of close friends, quality of social support and so on," their so-on would have to encompass a broad range of constructs, including lifestyle and personality. The Yahoo writer either left out a significant portion of controls laid out by this research team, failed to imagine other possible variables, or paraphrased the researchers claiming to have controlled for most variables.
 
If you had to place a bet with even odds on the results of a randomized intervention study, would you put money on alcohol increasing or decreasing lifespan? How much would that decision be influenced by this study?

An intervention study of that kind will never be done on humans, of course, but has one been done on animals? Have there been studies on how moderate alcohol consumption affects the lifespans of rats or mice? I couldn't find any with a quick google.
 
The disregard for sufficient controls in these alcohol experiments might explain the "consistent" results.
That's not much of an answer, especially with the unexplained use of "consistent" in quotes.

The errors I'm talking about are the factors the researchers do not control for. For example, many alcohol studies of this kind state that light drinkers live longer than people who don't drink. Who are the kind of people who drink in moderation? Alcohol is an addictive substance that tests our constitution. People who can drink in moderation (and let's get real here - many of these studies I'm referring to have said one drink can be beneficial whereas 2 removes all beneficial results and increases our health risk) have to be in very good control of themselves.
First, do you have any citations for these studies that show that one drink is good and two not only cancels out everything but makes it worse?

Second, I strongly disagree with your characterization of alcohol testing our constitution. The vast majority of people have no problems with alcohol abuse or dependence.

Third, this study defined heavy drinkers as 3 or more drinks per day. Moderate drinkers were 1 to less than 3. Light drinkers were less than 1. Of course, these are averages. A guy who has a six pack Friday and Saturday night is a moderate drinker (12 drinks over 7 days).


Having one drink suggests a stereotypical middle class / upper class person (I'm referring to the USA) who has a good head on their shoulders and knows how to take care of his or herself. Perhaps the only reason moderate drinkers live longer is because they're wise in all areas of their life.
Interesting assumption. Any evidence to back it up? I would argue that an increase in income makes alcoholism more likely because of increased opportunity and exposure. Blue collar workers are more likely to be in jobs that require them to arrive early in the morning and be subject to a strict clock (shift work). White collar workers are more likely to have jobs they can start later and are not subject to a strict clock. Blue collar workers in general can't drink at lunch for fear of losing their job whereas white collar workers have "martin lunches" and business dinners where alcohol is typically served.

According to this Norwegian study, higher education and income are linked to higher rates of alcohol consumption. This article confirms another study linking increased alcohol consumption to higher income.

The study we're discussing indicates they controlled for factors like income, but right now your theory seems unsupported by data.

Researchers are usually well aware of their inability to control for all of these factors all of the time. It's not uncommon to see it mentioned in the discussion section.
As has been noted, they indicated they were able to control for this.

Moderate drinking is considered by the US government to be no more than two drinks a day. I define a habit as being the regular occurrence of an action. If someone has a drink 5 days or more a week, that's regular occurrence, and thus a habit. I think a moderate drinking habit is just as much a habit as taking a vitamin each day.
Your definition of "habit" does not seem to be consistent with conventional usage (a repeated act carried out without really thinking about it). That aside, you are making some major assumptions. Two drinks per day is just an average. It doesn't literally mean having two drinks each day. There are lots of ways to average 30 drinks in a month. It could be a glass of wine after dinner every evening or just drinking beer on Sundays during the football game.

I think you made my point for me. These studies give off the vibe that drinking can be healthier than not drinking by using mortality numbers as their proof. They haven't proved that drinking is healthier; and they've only showed a slight correlation for moderate drinking and living longer. Until they control for a sufficient number of variables, big deal.
I haven't seen these studies claiming anything other than differences in mortality rates. The American Heart Association is very clear about that.

Doctors also do not advise that we begin a moderate drinking habit if we currently do not drink. I think that's enough information for me.
I'm not convinced this is a well-considered, evidence based decision. Someone without any risk factors for heart disease who has never been a drinker has to weigh what seem like potential benefits against the risk of developing an alcohol problem. But how about someone with risk factors who used to drink without a problem or only rarely drinks for whatever reason? One could argue that the risk of alcohol problems is very low and the potential benefits are very high.
 
First, the Yahoo article was poorly written, which is partly why I created this thread.

"Character' is a loaded term, but I think it encompasses what I'm getting at. I would like to see how lifestyle and personality correlate with alcohol use and morality. Once socioeconomic status has been properly controlled for, I wonder how impulsiveness, self-esteem, self-efficacy, job satisfaction, thrill-seeking behavior, and other characteristics affect the outcome. A wealthy, depressed person who has one drink a day may live a shorter life than a wealthy, happy person. Also, someone may only have one drink a day while maintaining a poor diet.

For the Yahoo article to say, "But even after controlling for nearly all imaginable variables - socioeconomic status, level of physical activity, number of close friends, quality of social support and so on," their so-on would have to encompass a broad range of constructs, including lifestyle and personality. The Yahoo writer either left out a significant portion of controls laid out by this research team, failed to imagine other possible variables, or paraphrased the researchers claiming to have controlled for most variables.

If I had to place a bet, I would guess that accounting for number of close friends and amount of time spent socializing would easily tip the results in the other direction.
 
I notice that it is just a study of older adults - between the ages of 55 and 65.

I disagree. Since this was a 20 year follow-up, I presume that they chose 35 to 45 year olds. It seems counterintuitive to think that they would have chosen a 34 year old, but not have included that person in the follow-up 20 years later (when that person, if alive, would be 54).

Perhaps more heavy drinkers die before the age of 55 than do non-drinkers so I don't think we can generalise this study to the drinking habits of all adults.

If the heavy drinkers (or light drinkers) did die before 55, then this would be a mortality statistic in the final analysis of the study. A broader study would have started with, say, 20-45 year olds, but I'm almost positive that the results would have been very similar (if you controlled for life expectancy perhaps)
 
I disagree. Since this was a 20 year follow-up, I presume that they chose 35 to 45 year olds. It seems counterintuitive to think that they would have chosen a 34 year old, but not have included that person in the follow-up 20 years later (when that person, if alive, would be 54).
You don't have to presume anything. The abstract, which was linked to in another post, says, "The sample at baseline included 1,824 individuals between the ages of 55 and 65."
 
Scientifically speaking (and ignoring the philosophical social interaction crap) :

It kind of makes sense to some degree just in the idea that perhaps drinking red wine with dinner helps to break down the food better, thus the body's digestion/filtration process functions better ?

Alcohol also helps to thin the blood, thus blood will flow more smoothly throughout the body rather than clogging up in your arteries or leaving behind junk deposits in organ tissues, etc.

So in my mind, moderate alcohol consumption could function like a mechanical maintenance program.

As a side note (this is a little bit of anecdotal woo but I'll mention it anyway)... My grandfather took a one ounce shot of brandy everyday and swore by its benefits : He claimed it helped to keep his blood thin-ish thereby combating clogging/buildup, providing better flow of particles/toxins through the organs and out of the body, which helped to combat the frequency of catching colds et al. Basically he claimed that a better flow through the body (ie maintenance program) aided in an overall longevity of the body's mechanical functions.

There's no scientific backing to what he claims, but I tend to agree with him from the basic fundamental perspective at least : Better flow makes for smoother functioning and thus adds to longevity... kind of like how keeping clean oil flowing through an engine does.

Does that make any sense or am I way off in left field ?

Or should I be posting this in the Post Your Own "Theory" thread ?
:D
 
If I had to place a bet, I would guess that accounting for number of close friends and amount of time spent socializing would easily tip the results in the other direction.

Are you saying that number of close friends and time spent socializing are always an indicator of emotional stability?

That's not much of an answer, especially with the unexplained use of "consistent" in quotes.

If none are controlling for personality or emotional stability (properly), then this might lead to consistent, invalid results.

First, do you have any citations for these studies that show that one drink is good and two not only cancels out everything but makes it worse?

I read about this many months ago and cannot find all of the sources claiming such. This is all I can find:

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/35/1/96#BIB36

"But people who drank more than about 25 grams of alcohol daily had overall mortality and cardiovascular death risks exceeding those of abstainers, and the more they drank, the higher the risk."

^ http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62M55F20100323

Second, I strongly disagree with your characterization of alcohol testing our constitution. The vast majority of people have no problems with alcohol abuse or dependence.

Evidence that the vast majority of alcohol drinkers have no problems with abuse or dependence?

Third, this study defined heavy drinkers as 3 or more drinks per day. Moderate drinkers were 1 to less than 3. Light drinkers were less than 1. Of course, these are averages. A guy who has a six pack Friday and Saturday night is a moderate drinker (12 drinks over 7 days).

From what I've seen before, and the Reuters article touches on this, moderate drinking does not mean you can drink a six pack in one night and claim you're consuming one drink a day on average.

Interesting assumption. Any evidence to back it up? I would argue that an increase in income makes alcoholism more likely because of increased opportunity and exposure.

According to this Norwegian study, higher education and income are linked to higher rates of alcohol consumption. This article confirms another study linking increased alcohol consumption to higher income.

The study we're discussing indicates they controlled for factors like income, but right now your theory seems unsupported by data.

I then went on to say in another reply that income level does not necessarily determine alcohol use. Someone can make a lot of money and be an alcoholic. Someone can make a lot of money and drink moderately.

My hypothesis centers around personality and lifestyle more so than socioeconomic status.

Your definition of "habit" does not seem to be consistent with conventional usage (a repeated act carried out without really thinking about it). That aside, you are making some major assumptions. Two drinks per day is just an average. It doesn't literally mean having two drinks each day. There are lots of ways to average 30 drinks in a month. It could be a glass of wine after dinner every evening or just drinking beer on Sundays during the football game.

Your definition of habit: repeated action with little thought about it
My definition of habit: repeated action

My definition is not far from your's.

Moderate consumption, unless I'm wrong, means drinking on average around 3 or less drinks a day. This does not mean you can drink 7 beers every Sunday and say you drink less than 30 a month. Binge drinking has been shown to be dangerous; and I've never seen a study showing it has any benefit. The CDC defines binge drinking for men to be five drinks in two hours.

I haven't seen these studies claiming anything other than differences in mortality rates. The American Heart Association is very clear about that.

Here's one example. The study below suggests that alcohol consumption may improve cognition:

Gaffney, J. (2005). Cognitive Drinking: Alcohol in Moderation May Keep Older Women's Minds Sharp. Wine Spectator, 30(1), 20. Retrieved from MasterFILE Premier database.

This article refutes the findings, stating "Our findings suggest that, despite previous suggestions, moderate alcohol consumption does not protect older people from cognitive decline.":

C, C. (2009). Alcohol in moderation, premorbid intelligence and cognition in older adults: results from the Psychiatric Morbidity Survey. Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatry, 80(11), 1236-1239. Retrieved from Academic Search Complete database.

One could argue that the risk of alcohol problems is very low and the potential benefits are very high.

The same could be said for smoking. It doesn't mean either are correct. Of course, it depends on what sort of problems and benefits we're talking about.
 
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There's no scientific backing to what he claims, but I tend to agree with him from the basic fundamental perspective at least : Better flow makes for smoother functioning and thus adds to longevity... kind of like how keeping clean oil flowing through an engine does.

Does that make any sense or am I way off in left field ?

By itself it doesn't make sense because it presumes that the human body evolved a cardiovascular system that would function better if (say) blood were "thinner." There would need to be scientific backing that this is the case for it to make sense, and without it, it's just conjecture. It could still be correct, but it would be luck.

The engine metaphor doesn't work very well because engines deal with a lot of friction. Oil is a lubricant, and the combustion process (dirt from the air, byproducts of combustions) introduces "rough" particles that cause wear. The heat of combustion also breaks down the oil making it less efficient (as I understand it).

Blood doesn't really function as a lubricant, but the body does produce "contaminants" that can stick to blood vessels, narrowing them and eventually even blocking them entirely. As I understand it alcohol is supposed to have a positive effect on this process.

If you insisted on using a metaphor, I would look at a fuel additive that kept the gasoline flowing smoothly. But we don't need to stinking metaphors.


Or should I be posting this in the Post Your Own "Theory" thread ?
:D
Nah. This kind of stuff is thought provoking even if it turns out you are totally and horribly wrong.
 
I haven't seen these studies claiming anything other than differences in mortality rates. The American Heart Association is very clear about that.

That's the part I'd like to investigate, yeah. I hope they have a breakdown of causes of death.

Just as an extreme example, if nondrinkers were less likely to die of illness, but quite a bit more likely to die from accidents or skin cancer, this would be evidence that drinking is unhealthy in and of itself, and that there's simply something else about nondrinkers. The explanation perhaps being that nondrinkers do more outdoor sports or risky chores like cleaning their gutters or shovelling snow.

It's a pretty obvious gap in the data that should be easy to fill.


I'm a little hesitant to spin explanations before I have a better grasp of this data.
 
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I'm not convinced this is a well-considered, evidence based decision. Someone without any risk factors for heart disease who has never been a drinker has to weigh what seem like potential benefits against the risk of developing an alcohol problem. But how about someone with risk factors who used to drink without a problem or only rarely drinks for whatever reason? One could argue that the risk of alcohol problems is very low and the potential benefits are very high.

At this point, I'm not sure what would be, though, unless we know why alcohol increases health and that there's no way to get the same benefit with fewer side effects (less stress on the liver, etc.).

What would be the specific benefits of advising someone who didn't drink at all, to begin drinking moderately? Would there be any detriment?

For example, if socializing is one benefit, and the non-drinker has a good social life at church which he'd lose if he drank, since his church is against drinking, he wouldn't gain that benefit. If we knew that socializing was the benefit, the advice would be "socialize more," not "drink more."

Same way, if it's the antioxidants in some alcoholic beverages, the recommendation would be to consume more antioxidants in healthful food, not necessarily to start drinking.

And so forth. Otherwise, it's just a statistical stab in the dark to recommend a treatment with known negative side effects, when something without those side effects might be equally effective.
 
The tee-total groups is easy to figure. But moderate vs heavy is a random division.

2-3 has no meaning, it's a random line drawn in the sand. How about a study where in the line is drawn at "enough in a day to get legally drunk if drank in two hours, for your weight class"?
 
If you had to place a bet with even odds on the results of a randomized intervention study, would you put money on alcohol increasing or decreasing lifespan?

I would bet neither. I'm not being contrary. I just suspect that it doesn't really have much of an effect on increasing lifespan. And I think we can be reasonably confident from the research that moderate amounts don't decrease lifespan, although that doesn't take into account the potential harm from encouraging voluntary abstainers to drink, since we haven't controlled for whatever is driving that self-selection process.

We have enough information to justify performing a randomized, controlled trial, which would give us a better answer. Until then, the advice given - "if you drink, do so in moderation" - seems more prudent that encouraging people to take up the habit.

How much would that decision be influenced by this study?

A small amount. It confirms current recommendations and it demonstrates the unreliability of depending upon observational data, so it supports a conservative approach.

Linda
 
If none are controlling for personality or emotional stability (properly), then this might lead to consistent, invalid results.
In what way? What is the connection you believe exists that would skew the results? How many studies on any medication or treatment take this into consideration?

I read about this many months ago and cannot find all of the sources claiming such. This is all I can find:
If you find something later, post it.

Evidence that the vast majority of alcohol drinkers have no problems with abuse or dependence?
I dunno. Looking at the world around me? The link I posted earlier shows that 67% of Americans drink, so problems should be pretty evident among my family, friends, and colleagues. I don't see them.

The CDC says that 50% of the population regularly drinks (12 or more per year). That's 100,000,000 people. They report the annual number of alcohol induced deaths (excluding accidents and homicide) at 23,000.

They also report (ibid) that 14% of the population drinks fewer than 12 drinks per year. Of the remaining 36% I'm sure we have "dry" alcoholics in some number, but just about everyone in that group has access to alcohol. Only about 10% were lifetime abstainers (see link below). To me this indicates that most people don't find it all that difficult not to drink.

The tables here (page 71) have a bunch of stats showing drinking prevalence. The age categories show some interesting if incomplete information. The percentage of "regular" drinkers in each age bracket declines with age, which would seem to indicate that people are able to decrease their drinking levels. Of course, other factors could be at work.

I should note that this source is further evidence that your theory about education and/or income level and drinking is 100% wrong. As income and education increase, so does alcohol consumption even though consumption seems to decrease with age (which is usually the opposite of education and income until you retire). I would expect "emotional stability" to track with income and education, but I can't be sure.

Getting into the emotional stability issue, is it your argument that if you have these issues, you don't take care of yourself as you would otherwise? Therefore, this explains the difference in mortality rates? In what way? You drink more? You don't have insurance? Do you think that regular drinkers are less likely to have health insurance than abstainers?


From what I've seen before, and the Reuters article touches on this, moderate drinking does not mean you can drink a six pack in one night and claim you're consuming one drink a day on average.
It all depends on what the study asks people, doesn't it?

My hypothesis centers around personality and lifestyle more so than socioeconomic status.
You haven't defined your hypothesis yet.

Your definition of habit: repeated action with little thought about it
My definition of habit: repeated action

My definition is not far from your's.
It's not my definition. It's how people use the word. For example, I teach my kids to brush their teeth and wash their privates every day so it becomes a habit. The first dictionary definition is, "an acquired behavior pattern regularly followed until it has become almost involuntary." This is an important distinction.

When a doctor prescribes a drug, you are told to take it on some regular interval. If there is potential for addiction, you are warned that it may become habit forming. Some drugs are touted as not being habit forming.

Therefore, in this context we need to use the right terms.

Moderate consumption, unless I'm wrong, means drinking on average around 3 or less drinks a day. This does not mean you can drink 7 beers every Sunday and say you drink less than 30 a month. Binge drinking has been shown to be dangerous; and I've never seen a study showing it has any benefit. The CDC defines binge drinking for men to be five drinks in two hours.
The CDC notes in the aforementioned link:
‘‘In ANY ONE YEAR, have you had at least 12 drinks of any type of alcoholic beverage?’’; ‘‘In your ENTIRE LIFE, have you had at least 12 drinks of any type of alcoholic beverage?’’; and ‘‘In the PAST YEAR, how often did you drink any type of alcoholic beverage?’’

It all depends on what questions they ask.


The same could be said for smoking. It doesn't mean either are correct. Of course, it depends on what sort of problems and benefits we're talking about.
No, the same could not be said for smoking. We have clear and convincing evidence of increased mortality rates due to smoking.
 
I disagree. Since this was a 20 year follow-up, I presume that they chose 35 to 45 year olds. It seems counterintuitive to think that they would have chosen a 34 year old, but not have included that person in the follow-up 20 years later (when that person, if alive, would be 54).

You don't have to presume anything. The abstract, which was linked to in another post, says, "The sample at baseline included 1,824 individuals between the ages of 55 and 65."

You're right. I'm not sure what I was trying to say here.:rolleyes:
 
I would bet neither. I'm not being contrary. I just suspect that it doesn't really have much of an effect on increasing lifespan. And I think we can be reasonably confident from the research that moderate amounts don't decrease lifespan, although that doesn't take into account the potential harm from encouraging voluntary abstainers to drink, since we haven't controlled for whatever is driving that self-selection process.
(emphasis added)

How would you propose going about that? We seem to have some inferences about the self-selection process. The CDC reports, "Educational attainment and family income were positively associated with current regular drinking status and inversely associated with being a lifetime abstainer." That seems to be the strongest correlation for things they've looked at.
 
In what way? What is the connection you believe exists that would skew the results? How many studies on any medication or treatment take this into consideration?

If they're looking at mortality rates without controlling for presence of depression, for example, and they conclude drinkers live longer, they may have found abstainers who have suffered or are suffering from emotional disturbance. Perhaps it's the depression that's affecting the mortality rates and not alcohol.

The link I posted earlier shows that 67% of Americans drink, so problems should be pretty evident among my family, friends, and colleagues. I don't see them.

anecdotal evidence

The CDC says that 50% of the population regularly drinks (12 or more per year). That's 100,000,000 people. They report the annual number of alcohol induced deaths (excluding accidents and homicide) at 23,000.

If alcohol acts as a catalyst for the onset of heart disease, brain disease, cancer, or some other disease or illness, and that person dies, is their death considered to be induced by alcohol?

I'm not speaking only to deaths from alcohol. Along with 23,000 deaths, alcohol can affect our well-being and ability to enjoy a fulfilled life. There are a number of illnesses and diseases induced by alcohol that do not necessarily cause death. I'm ignorant in this area, so I can't be specific; I'm assuming that there are diseases and illnesses brought on by alcohol use that are not necessarily fatal.

Therefore, I think your statistic should include deaths and negatively affected well-being that is induced by alcohol. I understand that these studies typically look at mortality rates only. However, a diminished well-being may lead to a shorter lifespan (brain damage, depression, etc).

They also report (ibid) that 14% of the population drinks fewer than 12 drinks per year. Of the remaining 36% I'm sure we have "dry" alcoholics in some number, but just about everyone in that group has access to alcohol. Only about 10% were lifetime abstainers (see link below). To me this indicates that most people don't find it all that difficult not to drink.

I think we can agree that the infrequent drinkers probably only do so for special occasions and do not consider it to be a regular activity. Therefore, I would argue that these people never put themselves in a position to abuse or become dependent on alcohol. Typically, alcoholism occurs in people who regularly consume it.

The tables here (page 71) have a bunch of stats showing drinking prevalence. The age categories show some interesting if incomplete information. The percentage of "regular" drinkers in each age bracket declines with age, which would seem to indicate that people are able to decrease their drinking levels. Of course, other factors could be at work.

The percentage for 65+ years of age could drop off because regular drinkers could be dying off, leaving a higher percentage of abstainers and light drinkers.

I should note that this source is further evidence that your theory about education and/or income level and drinking is 100% wrong. As income and education increase, so does alcohol consumption even though consumption seems to decrease with age (which is usually the opposite of education and income until you retire). I would expect "emotional stability" to track with income and education, but I can't be sure.

First, let me restate my theory about education / income and drinking. I said that people who are moderate drinkers may be wise people. They may generally take care of themselves more, and they may have achieved higher levels of income and education, which would give them access to more and better health care. I didn't intend to suggest that the richer or more educated you are, the less you drink. I meant that the wiser you are, the less you drink.

Getting into the emotional stability issue, is it your argument that if you have these issues, you don't take care of yourself as you would otherwise? Therefore, this explains the difference in mortality rates? In what way? You drink more? You don't have insurance? Do you think that regular drinkers are less likely to have health insurance than abstainers?

I think emotional stability correlates with desire and ability to take care of one's self. If someone has a low self esteem, they may eat poorly, not caring about their long term health. They may claim to exercise regularly, but maybe they're lying because they're afraid of telling researchers the truth? They may also not have the ability to take care of themselves because they didn't have the emotional stability to maintain a well paying job; or maybe they quenched their depression by impulsively spending their money. There are many possibilities where emotional disturbance can curtail one's life span.

You haven't defined your hypothesis yet.

Lifestyle, emotional stability, and other aspects of one's character (perhaps attitude, values, and beliefs?) need to be controlled for in studies looking at the benefits of moderate drinking.

It's not my definition. It's how people use the word. For example, I teach my kids to brush their teeth and wash their privates every day so it becomes a habit. The first dictionary definition is, "an acquired behavior pattern regularly followed until it has become almost involuntary." This is an important distinction.

The first definition does not mean the subsequent ones are not valid. To say someone should take up the habit of x is to say they should start making it a regular part of their life. Taking up the habit of running doesn't mean that someone involuntarily or unknowingly runs every day. It simply means they run on a fairly regular interval. However, even doing something once a month could be a habit. Running a marathon once a month could be considered a habit.

When a doctor prescribes a drug, you are told to take it on some regular interval. If there is potential for addiction, you are warned that it may become habit forming. Some drugs are touted as not being habit forming.

Therefore, in this context we need to use the right terms.

When a doctor says that, they are saying the drug has addictive properties. Alcohol is addictive and can become a habit. Running is not necessarily addictive, and it can also become a habit.

The CDC notes in the aforementioned link:
‘‘In ANY ONE YEAR, have you had at least 12 drinks of any type of alcoholic beverage?’’; ‘‘In your ENTIRE LIFE, have you had at least 12 drinks of any type of alcoholic beverage?’’; and ‘‘In the PAST YEAR, how often did you drink any type of alcoholic beverage?’’

It all depends on what questions they ask.

And I'm saying that it appears that this study did not ask participants about their emotional stability and lifestyle.

No, the same could not be said for smoking. We have clear and convincing evidence of increased mortality rates due to smoking.

Ah, but you didn't originally say mortality rates. You said,

"One could argue that the risk of alcohol problems is very low and the potential benefits are very high."

I used the smoking analogy to show that "problems" and "benefits" are up to interpretation. Alcohol problems do not necessarily lead to death, as is the case with smoking. The potential benefits of alcohol and smoking are also debatable. I could say that smoking is good for me because it improves my singing voice, and because I otherwise take care of myself, I might not die early. I could very well live to 100 as a smoker.

The same can be said for alcohol. Even though the correlation between smoking and lung cancer and emphysema is very high, that doesn't mean it guarantees death and that the problems outweigh the benefits.
 
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Alcohol dependance (it's kind of addicting) could lead to a lesser quality of life. I have no studies to support this except AA meetings and some personal experience. Besides, a few less years would obviously happen at the end of one's life, the adult diaper, dialysis days, you know, the worst ones.
 
If they're looking at mortality rates without controlling for presence of depression, for example, and they conclude drinkers live longer, they may have found abstainers who have suffered or are suffering from emotional disturbance. Perhaps it's the depression that's affecting the mortality rates and not alcohol.
Is depression correlated with mortality? Why would depression consistently affect abstention rates upward?

anecdotal evidence
Not really. It's an observation based on encountering literally hundreds of people. Looking at the CDC numbers and considering the education and income levels of my friends, family and colleagues, the overwhelming majority will be regular drinkers. If alcohol problems were as widespread as you claim (you haven't been specific at all), then I would expect to see this. I don't, and statistically that's unlikely.

If I say, "Phoenix is overwhelmingly sunny and dry because when I look outside every day it's rarely raining" are you going to dismiss that claim based as anecdotal evidence?

<snip>

You are asking me to prove a negative, which is pretty tricky. Alcohol consumption is widespread, so if it caused serious problems in the vast majority of people, I would expect to see it all over the place. Everywhere I looked I came up empty for evidence supporting a positive assertion. That's about all I can do.

I think we can agree that the infrequent drinkers probably only do so for special occasions and do not consider it to be a regular activity. Therefore, I would argue that these people never put themselves in a position to abuse or become dependent on alcohol. Typically, alcoholism occurs in people who regularly consume it.
Do you have evidence of regular drinking leading to alcoholism or dependence?

The percentage for 65+ years of age could drop off because regular drinkers could be dying off, leaving a higher percentage of abstainers and light drinkers.
I suggest you look at the CDC numbers rather than making all of these hypothetical statements. You seem to have a premise. I don't. What I am doing is looking at your premise and taking educated guesses of what I would expect to see. I then check the numbers, and I don't see what I expect. That's it.

First, let me restate my theory about education / income and drinking. I said that people who are moderate drinkers may be wise people. They may generally take care of themselves more, and they may have achieved higher levels of income and education, which would give them access to more and better health care. I didn't intend to suggest that the richer or more educated you are, the less you drink. I meant that the wiser you are, the less you drink.
Fascinating. You seem to have a bias against drinking. "Wise" people don't drink, but apparently "wise" people don't make as much money or get as much education.

I think emotional stability correlates with desire and ability to take care of one's self. If someone has a low self esteem, they may eat poorly, not caring about their long term health. They may claim to exercise regularly, but maybe they're lying because they're afraid of telling researchers the truth? They may also not have the ability to take care of themselves because they didn't have the emotional stability to maintain a well paying job; or maybe they quenched their depression by impulsively spending their money. There are many possibilities where emotional disturbance can curtail one's life span.
Do you have any evidence that this actually happens? If not, I can make up all sorts of reasons why emotionally unstable people with low self-esteem might live longer.

Lifestyle, emotional stability, and other aspects of one's character (perhaps attitude, values, and beliefs?) need to be controlled for in studies looking at the benefits of moderate drinking.
Can you show me some studies where this was done for other treatments, drugs, diets, etc?

It seems pretty clear we are seeing a correlation that says moderate drinkers live longer than abstainers. It has been repeated enough times that I don't believe the correlation is in question. Some major factors appear to have been controlled for, and they resulted in a less significant difference.

Nobody can say right now that there's still not something else at work. Of course there could be, but whatever it is, it would appear to be correlated to drinking habits. You keep throwing out ideas without having any real support. Hell, it could be that abstainers don't like the taste of alcohol. That taste preference could correlate to whether their mothers ate garlic while breast feeding. Maybe that's it!

The first definition does not mean the subsequent ones are not valid.
Sigh. I never said it did. I said that in this context habit has a meaning very different from how you used it. We can't communicate properly discussing medical issues and addictive substances if you use such a loose definition of habit. Feel free to continue to use habit in place of regimen. What are you going to use in place of habit as in habit forming drugs?

And I'm saying that it appears that this study did not ask participants about their emotional stability and lifestyle.
<shrug>The abstract says they controlled for "former problem drinking status, existing health problems, and key sociodemographic and social-behavioral factors." Emotional stability would fall under health problems. Lifestyle would fall under "social-behavioral."

Ah, but you didn't originally say mortality rates. You said,

"One could argue that the risk of alcohol problems is very low and the potential benefits are very high."

I used the smoking analogy to show that "problems" and "benefits" are up to interpretation. Alcohol problems do not necessarily lead to death, as is the case with smoking. The potential benefits of alcohol and smoking are also debatable. I could say that smoking is good for me because it improves my singing voice, and because I otherwise take care of myself, I might not die early. I could very well live to 100 as a smoker.

The same can be said for alcohol. Even though the correlation between smoking and lung cancer and emphysema is very high, that doesn't mean it guarantees death and that the problems outweigh the benefits.
I find the above nothing but smoke and mirrors, pardon the pun. What are the health benefits of smoking? I've never seen them presented before. You seem desperate to cling to an unsupported position by making some unsupported claim about smoking even though we "know" smoking is bad, so that claim must be wrong so we can't trust what see about alcohol (or something equally unfulfilling to me).
 

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