have you watched derren browns "the experiment"

[Kuko 4000]

You can't hypnotize someone to kill another person. It's been studied.

Yeah, but if you know you're taking part in a Derren Brown show, just playing along for the ride is not too far fetched in my pow. I wouldn't bet much money on the guy being an actor or a stooge or whatever.

 

[Senex]

Yeah, but if you know you're taking part in a Derren Brown show, just playing along for the ride is not too far fetched in my pow. I wouldn't bet much money on the guy being an actor or a stooge or whatever.

That's the point. You believe performing in front of a camera crew gives you plausible deniability in a court of law. The KGB or CIA can't offer you that.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Yeah, just knowing he's playing along with Derren is probably enough to understand that nothing bad or risky can really happen.

 

[Azrael 5]

John Albert:

Remember the one where he played Russian roulette with a gun loaded by a member of the audience? Or the one where he stopped random people on the street, asked them for directions, and then supposedly talked them into giving him their wallets, keys, mobile phones, and wristwatches? Do you think those tricks were real? Of course not. They were staged magic tricks that relied on paid actors, audience plants and stooges. It totally does not surprise me that Derren Brown would stoop to exploiting a 40-year-old political assassination for some TV ratings.

Wel I suppose I have some knowledge of magic etc being intersted in it for over 30 years and the above quote is BS. Russian Roulette was a stunt/magic trick,and the wallet thing is the same. I can certainly say the RR doesnt use stooges and from what I recall the wallet effect is based on some psychology method.
I wouldn't want to say 100% he doesn't use stooges but I find it very very unlikely.

Edit the wallet effect I believe is called The Russian Scam.

 

[John Albert]

Less trouble? Really? When the guy can easily spill the bean?
Any family member\friend of the person he talks to in a while can say something? When any single person in the production can easily sell the story out?

Sorry, not agreeing with you there. Using non stooges seems to me like the safest bet to go. Since I went to film school I can tell you that editing is so much easier than you think.

I went to film school too for a couple years, before changing my major. Being familiar with film/TV production yourself, you must realize that editing a TV show involves far more people in both production and the post-prod side (producer, executive producers, director, cameramen, stagehands, grips/tech people, editors, assistant editors, interns, etc., all of whom would see and know exactly how it's being done and have the opportunity to tell friends and relatives and "sell the story out") than it would take for Derren Brown to train a single actor and get him to sign a legal NDA to protect Derren Brown's ass.

Using a secret stooge would obviate the need for everybody in the damn production company seeing how the trick is done right in front of them. Also, in your scenario you'd have the entire audience telling their friends and relatives that what they saw on TV was nothing like how it happened live in the studio.

Besides that, Brown has been caught using actors before, so what makes you think he wouldn't do it again?

And if the guy wasn't a stooge, then how do you account for all aspects of the story?

Do you believe an illusionist when he denies using trickery, just on his own word?

He's going to say whatever it takes to reliably get the trick done successfully, bar none. That's his job, to "astound and amaze," not to tell the truth.

Either way, some magicians use stooges (I think though not sure that Chris Angel admitted to such) while others don't.

Either way, to a set a positive claim, burden of proof is on you.

Sure and we know he lied about the latter because the lottery trick has been exposed with evidence that he is using tv editing tricks, for example.

Do you have evidence that he used stooges?

I was not involved in the production, so I admit I have no firsthand or solid evidence to prove he used plants or stooges in this particular show.

I already offered an observation about the girl at the beginning of the show whom Brown supposedly beguiled into thinking she couldn't pull her hands apart. Immediately after that display, the people seated near her barely so much as glanced at her, nor she at them. I don't know how many live magic shows, improv, stand-up comedy, or other theater you've witnessed that include audience participation, but that is totally out-of-keeping with the behavior patterns of audience members (and their neighbors) who've just been singled out in a performance.

If you look closely at the members of the audience, their reactions (or more specifically, their lack thereof) are very telling.

Now I might be reading too much into this, and maybe Derren Brown's audience are unusually polite and attentive, but in those kinds of situations you'll almost always see some exchange of eye contact, sheepish giggles, etc.

David Blaine and Criss Angel, on the other hand, have both been caught using stooges, as well as shameless TV edits and (at least in Criss Angel's case) special effects.

I hope you don't think this as rude, but I would very much like to see any evidence of him using stooges. I heard that line about multiple actors but have never seen real evidence to support it.

As I said, I can't prove it, but I've read several accounts that he recruits people from smaller audiences to be used as plants in larger venues. Specifically, the allegation is that he'll perform for a small group of students at a university (perhaps for a psychology class or something), then he'll source the best subjects from that performance who appear the most suggestible/extroverted/attention-seeking for use on one of his big-time TV broadcasts. Who would resist such an offer, to be a star on TV?

So maybe they're not stooges as such (in the sense that they're not planning the whole thing out in cahoots with him right from the get-go), but the "conditioning" he puts them through might not be so much a case of "brainwashing" as it is a period of getting them comfortable with the idea of playing along with the ruse for their own benefit as well as his, and training them in acting the part convincingly.

GrandMasterFox, are you by any chance a practicing stage magician yourself?

Have you ever been selected as an audience member for a live magic performance?

 

[Azrael 5]

I have edited the following post in places.

Besides that, Brown has been caught doing it before, so what makes you think he wouldn't do it again?

Proof?

Sure and we know he lied about the latter because the lottery trick has been exposed with evidence that he is using tv editing tricks, for example.

Do you have evidence that he used stooges?

Proof.A YouTube video doesnt suffice. I can make one showing how David Copperfield walked thru wall of China doesn't make it the correct method though.

As I said, I can't prove it, but I've read several accounts that he recruits people from smaller audiences to be used as plants in larger venues. Specifically, the allegation is that he'll perform for a small group of students at a university (perhaps for a psychology class or something), then he'll source the best subjects from that performance who appear the most suggestible/extroverted/attention-seeking for use on one of his big-time TV broadcasts. Who would resist such an offer, to be a star on TV? [/quote[
You believe everything you read then?

 

[John Albert]

You believe everything you read then?

Nope, and I don't believe everything stage magicians tell me either, when they're trying to get me to fall for a trick.

 

[John Albert]

Edit the wallet effect I believe is called The Russian Scam.

Yes. It's based on rumors that such a trick was being used in Russia to dupe people into just handing over all their valuables out of confusion.

Do you believe that's true, that large numbers of seemingly sane, intelligent people could be so easily beguiled by a scammer to just give their valuables away after a few seconds of conversation? I seriously doubt it would be a productive scam to simply approach random people on the street and try to talk them into giving up their stuff.

I think it's more likely, if such a scam was true, that it involved some degree of intimidation, or perhaps a form of "hot reading," wherein the crooks use inside information to actively seek out and target people with mental disabilities or impairments who might be easy prey. Perhaps they know somebody who works at a hospital or counseling facility, or even a bar, who provides them with likely marks.

I still think Derren Brown's treatment of the subject involved using stooges, or maybe he hit an area with a lot of pubs and did a thousand tries in order to get the handful of positive results for his show.


As for my statement about the Russian roulette episode, you called my assessment "total BS" and then arrived at the exact same conclusion that I did: it was a stunt, a magic trick.

 

[Checkmite]

I love Derren Brown, but my general opinion of him is this:

He does "programming" and tricks of persuasion only in the sense and to the extent that a magician casts spells. His actual tricks are those of misdirection, sleight of hand, memory, and the like.

The problem with a lot of Derren Brown's shows is that not only are his "psychological" explanations mostly completely bogus - we already know that hypnosis simply cannot do what he claims it does - but what happens in his shows such as this one also aren't the sort of effects that "misdirection, slight of hand", or other such magical gimmicks produce either. A person can't be "sleight-of-handed" or "misdirected" into picking up a gun, shooting it at somebody, and then "falling into a trance" (more woo). The long and short is, it's an entirely scripted act disguised as a "magic show".

 

[Kuko 4000]

A person can't be "sleight-of-handed" or "misdirected" into picking up a gun, shooting it at somebody, and then "falling into a trance" (more woo).

But he can play along, as people do in stage hypnotism and in magic shows.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Yep .. Brown is just another liar. He explained some stuff .. but generally he feeds on confusion. Shame on him.

 

[John Albert]

Yep .. Brown is just another liar. He explained some stuff .. but generally he feeds on confusion. Shame on him.

Dude, come on. It's a magic show! What the hell do you expect?!?

Or are you being facetious?

By sarcasmometer seems a bit off today.

The problem with a lot of Derren Brown's shows is that not only are his "psychological" explanations mostly completely bogus - we already know that hypnosis simply cannot do what he claims it does - but what happens in his shows such as this one also aren't the sort of effects that "misdirection, slight of hand", or other such magical gimmicks produce either.

Of course this is true. He's cited lots of pop-psych woo in his explanations. What's the one he always claims to use? Transactional analysis, or neurolinguistics or whatever.

 

[Azrael 5]

Nope, and I don't believe everything stage magicians tell me either, when they're trying to get me to fall for a trick.

So no proof being offered about Russian Roulette,Lottery Effect(that will do for now)being stooges/plAnts tv edits?
On magic cafe forum there are magicians who can do a version off Derren's Russian scam(punter gives magician his coat) also the paying for things with blank money Derren does.
It is boring and predictable reading "its all a stooge" whenever Derren does something different.Think about the "misdirection " part of the show's disclaimer;what you see isnt neccarasily happening the way we percieve it to be.
I can think of a way to achieve the wallet effect without a stooge.

 

[Luzz]

I don't think Derren needs to explain that these are magic tricks

Yes he does. Thats the problem, he tells or wants to give the impression that his show is real, based on psychology when in fact it is magic.

 

[Kuko 4000]

What's the one he always claims to use? Transactional analysis, or neurolinguistics or whatever.

You mean NLP, neuro linguistic programming?

Evidence please, or have you just read from somewhere that he claims to use NLP? Hint, we've been there before and know the story.

 

[Checkmite]

But he can play along, as people do in stage hypnotism and in magic shows.

But there's no "magic" here. Nothing is being made to disappear, reappear, change places, or turn into something else. Nobody is being sawn in half and re-constructed. The guy picks up a gun on command and shoots at somebody. Where's the "magic trick" inside this show? What's there to "play along with"?

 

[Azrael 5]

Also regarding Assasin, in the credits it reads "With thanks to Stephen Long and Andy Nyman"
Both magicians.

 

[Checkmite]

You mean NLP, neuro linguistic programming?

Evidence please, or have you just read from somewhere that he claims to use NLP? Hint, we've been there before and know the story.

No, he doesn't claim to use NLP as such; however, in one of his shows, he demonstrated a technique that happens to be an important part of NLP and claimed that it actually works when it doesn't.

ETA: For what's it's worth, that didn't constitute a "magic trick" either. He had a fellow write down on a piece of paper something that he really wanted more than anything else; then after an extended conversation with the ridiculous "psychological" technique, he asked the guy again what he wanted, and the fellow gave him a different answer (the answer the "technique" had supposedly "programmed" into him) from what he had chosen shortly before.

Many people say that Brown's BS psychobabble isn't meant to be literally believed; that it's just misdirection - but the problem is, even granting that, there's nothing to "misdirect" - just like with the assassination bit. The psychobabble didn't "misdirect" you from any sleight of hand magic trick that Brown used to "make the man change his answer". Brown simply told him before the cameras began to roll, "when I'm done talking and ask you what you wanted, just say a bike." Similarly, you didn't need to be "misdirected" from any fake thumbs or invisible threads during the assassination episode. He simply told the guy "on my cue, pick up this gun and shoot at Stephen Fry and then pretend to fall into a 'trance'." The entire rest of the episode was nothing but supportive fluff for Brown's consistent endorsement of pseudoscientific "psychology" techniques.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Yes he does. Thats the problem, he tells or wants to give the impression that his show is real, based on psychology when in fact it is magic.

I agree to a point, he has explained things before on his shows, but he is walking a very thin line. I don't think he needs to spell out that he can't predict the lottery numbers though (etc.), people who believe that will probably believe whatever else comes their way as well.

Out of TV he is very open about it all, but he could stress being a magician / skeptic even more often in his shows. This episode was too much for me, the whole thing seemed to completely endorse the idea that Robert Kennedy's murderer was or could've been programmed to do it, a step too far in my opinion.

 

[AdMan]

Has anyone mentioned the concept of dual reality yet?