Have you ever had a "religious experience"?

Not necessarily.

"Religion" doesn't automatically mean God. There ARE other kinds of religions. ;)
Well, one that convinces you in a religious way, then. That would also include those that made you abandon your religion ;).


Hans
 
But, isn't that really the only workable definition?

If we're discussing the characteristics of the experience for comparison to determine whether emotional experiences that result in a belief in god are significant, then no, it isn't.

ETA: I should clarify that I'm using "religious experience" as a convenience term to describe the emotional and physical effects, not necessarily the result. Lonewulf had made a point that many people had experienced the same kinds of feelings reported by people who had had "religious experiences" yet did not end up believing in god. Verum was appearing to say that, because they didn't end up believing in god, they weren't the same thing.
 
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Well, one that convinces you in a religious way, then. That would also include those that made you abandon your religion ;).


Hans


I don't see why it has to be convincing. If it's an experience that has a powerful emotional effect, that might well convince a non-skeptic that it was from god, yet the skeptic remains unconvinced, is it not still the same experience?
 
Only because I'm not happy with my explanations thus far, I offer this hypothetical discussion. If I'm beating a dead horse, I apologize.

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Believer: I believe in god because I felt his presence when I was younger.

Skeptic: How do you know it was god?

Believer: I felt things I have never felt before or since. I was elated and had the unmistakable feeling that I was part of something much grander and good. Only god could have made me feel that way.

Skeptic: How do you know it wasn't just an emotional response to something that you think was caused by god? I've had similar experiences that I didn't attribute to god.

Believer: If it didn't make you believe in god, then it's not the same thing.
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The believer in this case is justifying his belief based on a religious experience he had. But, by dismissing a similar experience that didn't result in the belief of god, is now justifying his experience as being the hand of god based on his belief. That is, he believes in god because of his religious experience, and he knows his experience was the hand of god because it resulted in his belief.
 
The believer in this case is justifying his belief based on a religious experience he had. But, by dismissing a similar experience that didn't result in the belief of god, is now justifying his experience as being the hand of god based on his belief. That is, he believes in god because of his religious experience, and he knows his experience was the hand of god because it resulted in his belief.

This is also known as a circular argument.
 
I don't see why it has to be convincing. If it's an experience that has a powerful emotional effect, that might well convince a non-skeptic that it was from god, yet the skeptic remains unconvinced, is it not still the same experience?
Because, to be religious experience, it has to be convincing.

...Relax, I know it is circular. I only point out that this is the only workable definition of a religious experience. That it deprieves the same experience of any real value is just too bad, but not surprising IMHO.

Hans
 
Well since I am now off the hook, I can just be myself again.

It is better to have a TRUTH experience, than to have a RELIGIOUS experience.
You see, RELIGION involves beliefs. And there is your major problem right there !

trbybl.gif

If you were to look towards complete truth, then you would have to step back and look off to the side to be able to look at a BELIEF since a BELIEF is not directly connected to truths, hence it is a mere belief.

TRUTH IS BEYOND BELIEF !

The problem with being a religious believer, is that if the complete truth is presented to such a person, this TRUTH will immediately be rejected, due to truth being beyond the scope of belief. This also applies to adults who still even as adults practice the use of the primitive and inhibiting mental relative function of the mind, know as Belief / Disbelief.

In a way it is kind of funny. You could place absolute truth directly in front of such people, and every single one of them will reject the truth and call it anything but the truth.

Religion does not surpass truth, in fact it is an exposure to less than truth, hence it is given a name other than truth. This does get scary, because the whole world could easily be deceived, thanks to it being a world full of Believers / Disbelievers.

These primitive minds think like computers. They are limited to 1's and 0's. To them it's Sane and Insane, True and False, Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, etc.. All the fine details between these extremes are simply out of their view, beyond their mental capacity. Once again, this creates a scary situation since these kinds of people can easily be divided and conquered. It is so easy to set them against each other. Unite and concur is just not within their thinking.

If you wish to detect such small minded people, check back over to see who has quickly classified me as a being a basic nut-case.

But don't blame them. It's not their entire fault. Due to a limited mental capacity, the feeling of jumping to an extreme conclusion gives a false but effective feeling of intelligence.

When speaking to such people, you will also see how they continuously demonstrate their closed mindedness, and their practice of immediate conclusiveness. It sure makes life for them easy though, since no thinking is required. They then use knowledge as a substitution of intelligence. It becomes an " I know more than you do " competition.

In other words, the importance if understanding is basically thrown out the window.

A simple test to see whether or not you are a believer, is that if you think you can change the magnitude of motion of a car by stepping on the peddle known as the accelerator, or the other peddle known as the brake peddle, then you are definitely a believer.

If you were not a believer, then you would eventually have figured out the fact that you are only changing your direction of travel across the four dimensional environment known as Space-Time.

You also see the obviousness concerning your car, as its direction of travel across Space-Time is changed after pressing the accelerator, that the car now extends more across the dimension of Time and less across the dimension of Space, and that the more it move across Space, the less it moves across the dimension of Time. Just a little bit of thought in your spare time, and you come up with equations such as

lfunk.gif

tfunk.gif

These equations can then provide a precise measurement of the spatial length of the car, depending upon its spatial velocity, and the measurement of a time period measure by the person within the car, which also is dependent upon the cars spatial velocity.

Of course once one became aware that the car extends across the dimension of Time, one was also aware that if clocks were positioned at the opposite ends of the car, they would no longer be synchronized.

This would then effect the measurement of the speed of a ball which someone threw from the front of the car to the rear, or vise verse, due to the clocks used to make such a measurement not being in sync. A little bit of thought about that, and more equations pop into the mind.

lorentzx2.gif

lorentzx.gif

lorentzy.gif

Taking all of the equations into account it then becomes apparent that if one was to be inside a moving vehicle, and one saw objects moving at specific velocities within the vehicle, they would not actually be moving at the measured velocities, but less than. It becomes apparent that one speed in particular can not be surpassed. That one speed is the original constant magnitude of all objects as they are in constant motion within Space-Time.

Once again you put the equations to work to verify this, and...

calc01.gif


calc02.gif



calc03.gif

Then you proceed onward in school and are stunned years later when finding out that these equations you created were the same as those used by Albert Einstein. They were given names such as the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction Equation, the Time Dilation Equation, the Lorentz Transformation Equations, and the Velocity Addition Equation.

You become puzzled as to why others could not see the obvious. But it all came down to the fact that the others looked upon BELIEFS, and not upon TRUTHS. It was as simple as that. Yep, it's best to have a TRUTH experience !


TRUTH IS BEYOND RELIGION

trbybl.gif


TRUTH IS BEYOND BELIEF !

 
I have had something that most people would probably call a "religious experience" (or "out of body experience" or something like that).

First, some background on me.
A handful of times (between 6 and 8 times in about 15 years) in my life I've fallen unconscious for no apparent reason and remained unconscious for between 30 seconds and 1 minute. Each time I've felt weak and disoriented for about 5 minutes after waking up and then been fine. I've had many medical tests done (as you might imagine) but no cause for this has been found. Being so infrequent, though, it's not something I'm particularly worried about.
Each time I've fallen unconscious the experience has been different but only one of them could fall under "religious experience".

In summer of 2002 I was eating lunch in the cafeteria with a friend and suddenly became overwhelmed with dizziness and quickly got off of the stool I on which I was seated. Before I could lie down I lost consciousness.

At that time, I didn't remember anything at all. My experience was that of a timeless void with no memory and only basic self-awareness, coupled with a very calm bliss.
Then I felt a cold floor on my face.
Then I woke up and remembered.

As with previous times, I was fine a few minutes later, but went to see a doctor anyway, I had remained unconscious for between 30 seconds and a minute.

This experience was emotionally profound for me. For quite some time afterwards (partly due to life circumstances) I yearned to recreate it, but I never tried very hard and never succeeded. I am quite aware that this was a purely neurological phenomenon and the experience did not encourage me to religious beliefs, but it shares many qualities with experiences that others call "religious".

The description above is basically a repetition of the way I described it very soon after it happened; the memory of the experience itself has since, to my dismay, faded away almost entirely.
 
I think this individual is severely mentally ill and...I'm not sure what to do:( :(



K. Sean Proudler, (aka Minister of Truth)

posted this on:

http://www.humanillnesses.com/Behavioral-Health-Ob-Sea/Schizophrenia.html

(posted by K. Sean Proudler)

All of the above, expresses certainty concerning Schizophrenia.

All other \" Theories \" are now rejected. Therefore all other possible \" Facts \" are also rejected.

Certainty is present even though the \" Illness \" is not fully understood. This is NOT possible without error, or insanity, for certainty requires completeness.

Therefore, the mental illness to be studied, is that suffered by those whom have achieved this false certainty that also claims others are having false beliefs.

The problems will be overcome once false certainty is eliminated.


Thanks



CP: and here is a reaction to Sean's postings on another website:
http://secondlife.blogs.com/nwn/2004/09/in_the_minds_ey.html

posted by: --Irin Bakhtiar

Oh! And all along, I've been thinking he meant that there is a secret organization controlling reality. What Proudler is really saying is that there is just a large group of people on this "Holistic plane of reality," working together--in a non-organizational way, of course--to covertly govern the people of the "Relativistic plane of reality."...

What I love--and when I say love, I essentially mean hate in a blood-boiling kind of way--is when Proudler goes on about planes of reality. It's always amazing how easily conspiracy theorists such as Proudler hijack the terminology of physicists--you know, people who base their theories on actual mathematical models--and manage to mangle them in the context of their pseudo-philosophical statements.

Anyhow, I actually have had the misfortune of seeing his website. I suppose if I had to sum it up in one word, I would use: "creepy." I'm not sure which is more disturbing, the fact that there are people in modern times who still use numerology, or that Proudler in particular uses numerology to literally equate his name with the words: "angel," "miracle," and "Prophet Sean." According to his use of the sound science of numerology--under the subsection "Who is Sean?"--Proudler's real identity is revealed to be the God of Truth. In fact, Proudler's birthday, June 17th, is the same as the supposed birthday of a certain Christian messiah, two thousand years ago (I read that Christmas is thought to be celebrated on the wrong day, but I never knew Jesus shared his birthday with THE K. Sean Proudler). All these little absurd theories can be found on his--sorry, His--website under a section entitled, Bible Codes. Proudler will be happy imagining that visitors to His site will be immediately converted to His "lateral-thinking" anyway.

Reviewing His website actually makes mainstream religious beliefs seem to me relatively logical, "relatively" being the operative word.

--Irin Bakhtiar


CP: and here:

http://www.intervoiceonline.org/200...t-mean-you-re-mentally-ill-icwales-may-2-2007

CP: Anyway, I'm disturbed by his website and other postings in a way that I wasn't with David Jay Jordan--who I felt was ok to mock. This man is different. This isn't funny.

I'm at a loss.
 
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Cp: Here's a sample of his site:

As the result of my opposition, they have reduced my existence to MISERABLE NOTHINGNESS as I continue to struggle doing the best I can to stop their horrific nasty plans, and their bloody Global Torture and Terrorism. ...
They just love to make me, and others, crawl and beg ! Unlike the church goers, who support mass murder and boundless torture and brutality, without even knowing of their complete support of such things ( the place called HELL ), without even knowing of their complete support of such things ( the place called HELL ), without even knowing of their complete support of such things ( the place called HELL )........... , I do NOT approve of mass murder and boundless ETERNAL torture and brutality, and I do NOT approve of mass murder and boundless ETERNAL torture and brutality that is all practiced solely for the purpose of self benefits achieved by dumping one's garbage upon others through the practice of absolute DECEIT !

(end of sample)

cp: I think with this level of hostility, people here should be cautious. I don't know what else to say, other than this stuff frankly scares me.
 
I think this individual is severely mentally ill and...I'm not sure what to do:( :(

I don't think there is much you can do, caleb, from a distance.

If he is mentally ill, then he is posting on forums like this and those you've referenced because he is compelled to.

His theories are laughed at, but that's not surprising to someone in that state (if he is). The "truth" has revealed itself to him, and if you don't get it, so much the worse for you. He tried to help you. You're the one that needs help. Many psychoses reverse logic that way.

And if that's the case, and psychosis is the cause, it may be safer for him to bump into reality here in cyberspace, one post at a time, than rail against it on street corners.

Like you, I hope his beliefs don't get him in trouble, and that eventually he finds the "answers" he needs; other than that... :confused:
 
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I have never had the bolt from the blue feeling; my faith has always been quiet and grows in little fits and starts.
When I shared this in Suday School the teacher told me I was not really Christian.
I guess I need to have a visit from Satan like she did. ;)

Kore
 
I've had a religious experience that I've talked about in another thread. I had gone through a lot of stuff (like thinking I had committed the unforgivable sin, which was absolutely terrifying.) I was sitting at my desk at work, most likely thinking about Jesus, when it seemed that out of the blue, a voice that seemed to emanate from inside me (not in my mind) spoke to me and asked me if I believed that Jesus was the Son of God. For whatever reason, I felt that I couldn't lie to this voice and said, "no." Immediately, I felt what seemed like a presence leave my body, as if my conscience that had been convicting me and making me feel guilt for committing the unforgivable sin left me. It was a weird feeling; I felt it rise up out of me. From then on, I still worried but didn't feel conviction about anything. I now have trouble feeling guilty about things because I feel that I don't have a conscience. It's something that I think about every day, and I try to tell myself that it was all in my mind, but it felt very real.
 

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