Has the Democratic Party done more to help or hurt the black community?

[Ziggurat]

It seemed to provide a basis for understanding your perspective on anti-racism. The lack of class as a factor, the lack of structural criticism - especially of police, the bias towards individual gestures rather than material conditions. You know, the general "work within the system for incremental reform" kind of thing.

Translation: he's accusing you of false consciousness.

 

[caveman1917]

Translation: he's accusing you of false consciousness.

lol

 

[Mumbles]

It seemed to provide a basis for understanding your perspective on anti-racism. The lack of class as a factor, the lack of structural criticism - especially of police, the bias towards individual gestures rather than material conditions. You know, the general "work within the system for incremental reform" kind of thing.

Hm.

Well, if you want to call me out on this, then go ahead and do it.

Understand, though, I'd like to see top-down, major reforms. You won't see me ranting on a street corner, wearing a cape and Wonder-Woman armbands like a Black Israelite.

Here's the thing, though: I got where I am now, because I got lucky. There's nothing else that separates me from the other street kids I grew up with.

And while I understand where you're coming from, "abolish the police" is not a good answer. There's no point bringing up slave patrols. I think a part of the solution to the murder rate is *good* police, far removed from what we have in many cities today.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I often see suggestions that local Black Communities need to get more acquaintanced with the local police, in order to reduce animosity and the negative view of police. Which is fair enough - I think that should go for all citizens. But shouldn't it also be the other way around - shouldn't local police also become more acquaintanced and friendly with the local black community, get better acquaintanced with the culture, jargon, recreational activities, in order to make them friendlier, more eager to help and more eager to resolve any situations in a peaceful way?

 

[caveman1917]

Well, if you want to call me out on this, then go ahead and do it.

Call you out? I don't do calling out, I think it's a fairly regressive and counter-productive practice. Well, unless someone is an outright fascist or something of course.

Understand, though, I'd like to see top-down, major reforms.

We all like to see many things, the question is how to get them. I really don't understand this faith in top-down, major reforms. Of all people you could choose, you put faith in a tiny group of them - those at the top of the current power structure - who are statistically the least likely to want to push for major reforms. It is, after all, the current, unreformed, state of affairs which put them at the top in the first place. And that's not even considering the effect of power on people in general.

You won't see me ranting on a street corner, wearing a cape and Wonder-Woman armbands like a Black Israelite.

And? What's wrong with ranting on a street corner wearing a cape and Wonder-Woman armbands?

Here's the thing, though: I got where I am now, because I got lucky.

Of course you did, capitalism is not a meritocracy you know.

And while I understand where you're coming from, "abolish the police" is not a good answer.

Abolishing inequality is a better answer, no need for police then.

There's no point bringing up slave patrols.

How would you even begin trying to understand a society and the role of its social institutions if you're not going to consider how these institutions evolved historically? There's every point in bringing up slave patrols.

I think a part of the solution to the murder rate is *good* police, far removed from what we have in many cities today.

There's no such thing as a "good" police. I'm guessing you're thinking of places like Europe where police killings are much rarer. However, what you'd be missing is gun controls. In Europe a cop can't just say "I thought he had a gun" without getting people to just stare with a face saying "why the hell would you think that, nobody has a gun?!". In Europe it's not just police killings which are rarer, but firearms and firearm discharges in general - the immediate ante of a potentially violent situation is much lower. Over here, as a minority, you go home with a beating instead of in a body bag. And while that is of course a better situation, the police purportedly being "good" ain't got nothing to do with it.

 

[Mumbles]

I often see suggestions that local Black Communities need to get more acquaintanced with the local police, in order to reduce animosity and the negative view of police. Which is fair enough - I think that should go for all citizens. But shouldn't it also be the other way around - shouldn't local police also become more acquaintanced and friendly with the local black community, get better acquaintanced with the culture, jargon, recreational activities, in order to make them friendlier, more eager to help and more eager to resolve any situations in a peaceful way?

A good point. Yes, that must happen as well.

 

[Mumbles]

Call you out? I don't do calling out, I think it's a fairly regressive and counter-productive practice. Well, unless someone is an outright fascist or something of course.

Well, if you prefer that route, then okay XD

We all like to see many things, the question is how to get them. I really don't understand this faith in top-down, major reforms. Of all people you could choose, you put faith in a tiny group of them - those at the top of the current power structure - who are statistically the least likely to want to push for major reforms. It is, after all, the current, unreformed, state of affairs which put them at the top in the first place. And that's not even considering the effect of power on people in general.

The thing is, I actually have no faith. Regardless of the path to reform, this will be a fight. I was actually kind of happy when Black Lives Matter stormed the stage last year, and cussed out O'Malley and Sanders. And you are correct that we should not simply trust the folks who run things.

However.

This a good time to strong-arm 'em. And I think that we would likely be better forcing major reforms, than just tossing police out and starting from scratch.

And? What's wrong with ranting on a street corner wearing a cape and Wonder-Woman armbands?

I don't want to be out looking like a black Israelite, that's all.

Of course you did, capitalism is not a meritocracy you know.

No, it's not.

I have to push this, because many people don't get it. I grew up among many kids, who had so many hopes and dreams.

And most of them got crushed. Just - they ran into a cop, or got into trouble. And so they ended up either in jail, or dead.

Meanwhile, I did have to fight, but I also got scholarships, and so on.

Again that was just luck.

We may be in the same place.

There's no such thing as a "good" police. I'm guessing you're thinking of places like Europe where police killings are much rarer. However, what you'd be missing is gun controls. In Europe a cop can't just say "I thought he had a gun" without getting people to just stare with a face saying "why the hell would you think that, nobody has a gun?!". In Europe it's not just police killings which are rarer, but firearms and firearm discharges in general - the immediate ante of a potentially violent situation is much lower. Over here, as a minority, you go home with a beating instead of in a body bag. And while that is of course a better situation, the police purportedly being "good" ain't got nothing to do with it.

Right. And so, there's going to be a fight.