Has the Democratic Party done more to help or hurt the black community?

[Mumbles]

Another fairly basic problem with these discussions is that far too many people assume that "the African-American community" is somehow entirely separate from the democratic party. In truth, the democratic party is the, singular, party that is integrated into black neighborhoods. The things said within the democratic party aren't told to convinced black people that they face racism - trust me, if "the democrats" said I didn't, I'd call them idiots.

As an example, Hillary's done a pretty good job lately of discussing problems of racism and how they affect black people. To hear from many people on this board, she's "convincing" black people that they can't get by in life. The reality, and anyone who actually thought about the protests that occured last year should realize this, she's trying to respond to her constituents, who have brought their complaints to her. This is exactly how politics at it's best is supposed to work.

Basically, here's what we're dealing with:

Me: "I face racism when dealing with police, here are some examples in my life, here are some experiences my friends and family have had."
Republican: "No you don't. You're a thug."
Dem: "I hear you."
Better, rarer Dem: "Here are some proposals I have for how to reform the police."

ETA: more to the point, the dems have spent decades recruiting black people, from black towns and neighborhoods, into their ranks. Meaning that the dems in these ares directly reflect the concerns of the communities, because the dems are people who live in those communities.

 

[theprestige]

Seems like the best way to reform the police would be for more black democrats to pursue careers on the police force.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Another fairly basic problem with these discussions is that far too many people assume that "the African-American community" is somehow entirely separate from the democratic party. In truth, the democratic party is the, singular, party that is integrated into black neighborhoods. The things said within the democratic party aren't told to convinced black people that they face racism - trust me, if "the democrats" said I didn't, I'd call them idiots.

As an example, Hillary's done a pretty good job lately of discussing problems of racism and how they affect black people. To hear from many people on this board, she's "convincing" black people that they can't get by in life. The reality, and anyone who actually thought about the protests that occured last year should realize this, she's trying to respond to her constituents, who have brought their complaints to her. This is exactly how politics at it's best is supposed to work.

Basically, here's what we're dealing with:

Me: "I face racism when dealing with police, here are some examples in my life, here are some experiences my friends and family have had."
Republican: "No you don't. You're a thug."
Dem: "I hear you."
Better, rarer Dem: "Here are some proposals I have for how to reform the police."

ETA: more to the point, the dems have spent decades recruiting black people, from black towns and neighborhoods, into their ranks. Meaning that the dems in these ares directly reflect the concerns of the communities, because the dems are people who live in those communities.

I am reminded by the Black Republican Senator who was complaining about how he was harassed and racially profiled by the police. Clearly he was just trying to make up for his total failures in life and justify them. They should kick him out of their party for suggesting such things and providing excuses to the blacks for their personal failures like his.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Seems like the best way to reform the police would be for more black democrats to pursue careers on the police force.

The cops are pretty damn good at getting rid of those who try to upset the status quo though. Why would that help them in the long run?

A lot of black officers do see the police as a threat when they are off duty as well.

 

[theprestige]

The cops are pretty damn good at getting rid of those who try to upset the status quo though. Why would that help them in the long run?

Who said anything about upsetting the status quo? I'm talking about people who wish there were more good cops on their local police force stepping up and being those good cops. You know: The ones who don't resort to violence. The ones who don't make racist stops. The ones who don't reach for their guns all the time.

More black democrats in the police academy. More black democrats on patrol. More black democrats making detective. How could that not help them in the long run?

 

[Mumbles]

Who said anything about upsetting the status quo? I'm talking about people who wish there were more good cops on their local police force stepping up and being those good cops. You know: The ones who don't resort to violence. The ones who don't make racist stops. The ones who don't reach for their guns all the time.

More black democrats in the police academy. More black democrats on patrol. More black democrats making detective. How could that not help them in the long run?

Because all too often, the problem is with the department, not the individual officers. Those supposedly good patrol officers will have their superiors demanding that they arrest more black kids. Ferguson's shakedown police were working at the behest of the city manager, which is why they ended up laying siege to the neighborhood for weeks.

Okay, we may not get the kind of idiot that fired wildly at Levar Jones, Tamir Rice, or John Crawford III. Maybe. But it's still not addressing the issue. People want to talk about "a few bad apples", but it's the barrel that's rotting.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Who said anything about upsetting the status quo? I'm talking about people who wish there were more good cops on their local police force stepping up and being those good cops. You know: The ones who don't resort to violence. The ones who don't make racist stops. The ones who don't reach for their guns all the time.

The ones who still cover for their coworkers doing all those things because otherwise they will lose their jobs.

You really think the cadet who turned in this guy has any future in law enforcement?

https://www.abqjournal.com/773110/former-albuquerque-officer-found-guilty-of-battery.html

 

[caveman1917]

Me: "I face racism when dealing with police, here are some examples in my life, here are some experiences my friends and family have had."
Republican: "No you don't. You're a thug."
Dem: "I hear you."

Me: "My race faces mass violence in this country."
Republican: "We'll make it even worse, and we'll be honest about it."
Democrat: "We'll also make it even worse, but we'll adopt gestures and speech to make it appear as if we're not."
Me: "That's all I'm asking for. Please continue the racially-inspired violence, make it worse even - just adopt some nice speech and gestures while doing it."

Better, rarer Dem: "Here are some proposals I have for how to reform the police."

In other words: "I'm not against run-away slave patrols, I'm just against slave patrol brutality."

 

[Mumbles]

Me: "My race faces mass violence in this country."
Republican: "We'll make it even worse, and we'll be honest about it."
Democrat: "We'll also make it even worse, but we'll adopt gestures and speech to make it appear as if we're not."
Me: "That's all I'm asking for. Please continue the racially-inspired violence, make it worse even - just adopt some nice speech and gestures while doing it."

In other words: "I'm not against run-away slave patrols, I'm just against slave patrol brutality."

Well, those are your words, not mine.

I only care about "slave patrols" as far as understanding where we got to where we are, and I do think that a major reform to policing can solve many (though not all) problems in black neighborhoods -largely through building trust between the two, and in cooperating with activist groups.

Whether or not the US is up to it is one question. But I see no point in likening modern US police to slave patrols. We off that.

But if you want to go down that path, well, do you.

 

[caveman1917]

Well, those are your words, not mine.

Well of course, they are just meant to convey a notion. The notion being that, as far as I can see, the standards being applied to the democratic party (and the republican for that matter) are based on speech and gestures rather than results. Such as with the "I hear you", but also in general in threads like this.

I only care about "slave patrols" as far as understanding where we got to where we are, and I do think that a major reform to policing can solve many (though not all) problems in black neighborhoods -largely through building trust between the two, and in cooperating with activist groups.

Whether or not the US is up to it is one question. But I see no point in likening modern US police to slave patrols. We off that.

But if you want to go down that path, well, do you.

"do you" as in, do I think that modern US police can be likened to slave patrols?

In that case, yes. In the sense that their role in society has not changed, it's just society which changed - from chattel slavery to wage slavery. The striking or otherwise revolting wage labourers of the modern day are the run-away slaves of yesteryear, and the patrols are still performing the same essential task, namely enforcing the production and upwards "donation" of products from the lower class to the upper class. Particularly in the US there is a strong racial dimension to this.

I think that either such police reform, as you suggest, will be too weak to be effective - other than perhaps in terms of gestures and speech - or it will be impossible to enact. Not because the US is not up to it but because capitalism isn't.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well of course, they are just meant to convey a notion. The notion being that, as far as I can see, the standards being applied to the democratic party (and the republican for that matter) are based on speech and gestures rather than results. Such as with the "I hear you", but also in general in threads like this.

I agree. But then you turn around and say something crazy:

"do you" as in, do I think that modern US police can be likened to slave patrols?

In that case, yes. In the sense that their role in society has not changed, it's just society which changed - from chattel slavery to wage slavery. The striking or otherwise revolting wage labourers of the modern day are the run-away slaves of yesteryear, and the patrols are still performing the same essential task, namely enforcing the production and upwards "donation" of products from the lower class to the upper class. Particularly in the US there is a strong racial dimension to this.

You went full commie. Never go full commie.

 

[dudalb]

I agree. But then you turn around and say something crazy:



You went full commie. Never go full commie.

Check Caveman's signature quotations. He has been going full Hard Core Marxist for some time.

 

[caveman1917]

Check Caveman's signature quotations. He has been going full Hard Core Marxist for some time.

lol

 

[Mumbles]

Check Caveman's signature quotations. He has been going full Hard Core Marxist for some time.

Yeah.

It's not quite on topic here, though. I only brought up the police as an example, I could think of plenty of others - public transit, schools, fire departments - I seriously can't think of an area where the GOP actually speaks to, and listens to, black people on a national level.

At that level, I think of Flint MI, and the various ridiculous laws that they've put into place in North Carolina. Our own governor, Larry Hogan, seemingly wants nothing to do with that nonsense, but since he is a republican, it somewhat sticks to him in my mind. And that's unfair, since he openly refused to endorsed Trump.

However

I won't touch communism. It's simply not the issue. I'll freely acknowledge that there are many good cops. I meant it when I said that the problem isn't a few bad apples, the problem is that the barrel is rotten. The only way to fix the barrel is through politics. It's safer for everyone if, say, the idiot who killed Tamir Rice went to jail. Police get a far better reputation than they have now, any shooting is actually justified in the minds of many.

Switching economic bases won't change this. And really, a president has very limited control over this. But I have to admit, Hillary is correct, and that idiot Trump, with his apparent proposal for nation-wide stop and frisk, is absolutely wrong.

 

[caveman1917]

Check Caveman's signature quotations. He has been going full Hard Core Marxist for some time.

Yeah.

May I suggest that people, who are so utterly ignorant of the subject so as not to even realize that none of the people quoted in my signature are marxists in the first place, just don't bother trying to make claims about the relation between my signature and "full hard core marxism"? Seriously, it just makes you look like idiots. There's a reason that "lol" response is there.

Switching economic bases won't change this.

If only you could have capitalism without racism.

Let me ask you something, are you middle class?

 

[Mumbles]

Let me ask you something, are you middle class?

At this point, I'd probably be put into upper-middle class.

Why?

 

[Ziggurat]

At this point, I'd probably be put into upper-middle class.

Why?

Because that makes you a kulak.

 

[fuelair]

Perhaps because the cities "under a monopoly of Democratic party leadership" are subject to additional layers of government?

And there are some difficulties cities/counties and states can't fix because the feds are in charge of them. And way too many congress critters (and senate) are republickers and do not give a republicker's ass about the poor.

 

[fuelair]

By this, I assume you mean, a layer of Repubs? State gov? Not in those states. Any layer at the fed level has flipped and flopped. Congress/senate?/Pres all.

Nah, the problem for the blacks is that the Dem Pols have learned to buy their votes with social programs. The Pols get power, the children get candy. Keep them ignorant children, they will continue to swap votes for candy- the Dems run the schools too.

And now, the colleges are teaching propaganda to the blacks too. Divisively.

Used to be America was spoken of as a "melting pot". The concept of unity has been replaced with divisive agitation. So that the politicians can keep us scared, so we will vote for them to lead as to safety. And give us candy. It works for the Repubs too.

Look at the divisive issues- gun control, abortion, SSM, segregation have all been decided by the supreme court, yet the agitators keep them in the fore front.

We are being played. It's just a question of which flavor kool-ade is our candy.

You know kool-ade is all sugar, no nutrition.

That is in toto an amazingly huge load of fecal matter!!! But if it makes you feel good thinking it, go for it!!!!!!!

 

[caveman1917]

At this point, I'd probably be put into upper-middle class.

Why?

It seemed to provide a basis for understanding your perspective on anti-racism. The lack of class as a factor, the lack of structural criticism - especially of police, the bias towards individual gestures rather than material conditions. You know, the general "work within the system for incremental reform" kind of thing.