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Has Christianity kept us from exploring the galaxy?

... During the so-called "Dark Ages" [...] we daw the development of metallurgy as we moved from "chain" mail and quilted armour, through the transitional period towards the plate harnesses of the 15th and 16th century,

The Roman army was widely using articulated iron plate armour by the start
of the 1st Century. Bits of it are found all over the empire - including recently
in the middle East too, where it was hitherto not thought to have been used.
Come to think of it, there are also several articulated bronze plate panoplies
known in Greek and near eastern sites from Mycenean and Hittite times. The
use of mail was actually something of a backward step in late-Roman and
early medieval times.
 
TO the OP? Who says we aren't? There's a lot of things we can learn via radioastronomy, telescopes and satellites within the solar system.

Huh?

Aboriginal Australia's had the steam engine?

Source please.

Might want to check the diode on your irony meter.
 
Sagan talks about a similar issue in "Cosmos"

The part where he laments the destruction of the Alexandrian library and the loss of the opportunities
offered by Greek science. In which case perhaps the graph should dip earlier than it does, at the end of
the "Greek" part and at the start of the "Roman". Romans were great organisers, managers and
engineers, but no great guns as natural scientists (pace Lucretius and Pliny).
 
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I'd just like to point out here that military conflict has been one of the strongest instigators of technological development the human race has ever seen. During the so-called "Dark Ages", for example (given the definition provided on the poster - see below), we daw the development of metallurgy as we moved from "chain" mail and quilted armour, through the transitional period towards the plate harnesses of the 15th and 16th century, with a corresponding increase in the quality of the steel. Simlutaneously we went from pattern-welded swords and spears that used poor quality iron, through to the development of high-carbon steel blades with highly specialised purposes. Gunpowder made its appearance in the 14th-15th centuries, which is well before the acknowledged start of the Rennaisance, and triggered another sea change in the use of armour on the battlefield.

In short, the so-called "Dark Ages" was not a period of technological stagnation, as the poster suggests. What's more, the poster conflates the Dark Ages with the Mediaeval periods, which historians generally consider distinct. The Dark Ages is usually described as lasting from the fall of the Roman empire in the 4th - 5th Century to the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The Early, Middle and Late Mediaeval periods followed it, lasting until the Rennaisance in the 16th Century.

All in all, the poster is more than a little bit inaccurate on a number of different levels.

As for its humour value, I usually don't find jokes that are based on misunderstandings or falsehoods to be all that funny.


This is true, but there are times the during military conflict that some sciences do not advance in order to develop and advance other sciences. For example, making better weapons, better armor or defenses, and medience will advance, but some things like geology, marine sea life, space exploration, and paleontology will not.
 
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That's over-simplified on many levels

The notion that the Dark Ages were purely a product of Christianity is a massive over-simplification on many levels.

The real problem there is that the relative safety and organization of the Roman Empire had collapsed, and society, trade, science collapsed with it. Christian or not, nobody had resources to do much more than flock around some castle and hope that the knights there can defend them from the raiders. They just didn't have the resources or manpower to support large cities with libraries and research centres and whatnot, and with the nearly complete collapse of trade the flow of ideas across Europe had halted too. And research doesn't work in a vaccuum.

The fall of Rome and the rise of Christianity also aren't as clear cut things as some people seem to assume. "OMG, Christianity killed the Roman Empire and brought the Dark Ages!" Not.

First of all, the Roman Empire had contained the seeds of its own destruction all along. The Imperial age had started with more than one example that might is right, and marching with the legions upon Rome is the perfectly legitimate way to get the throne. That's how Caesar did it, and Sula before him. They had no concept of even translation of power or who should inherit or who should designate the next emperor. (The Senate wasn't it. And it had been robbed of even most of its auctoritas, and certainly lacked imperium or potestas to start with.) The only right and justification in getting to the top was little more than "because I can."

Civil war raged half the time, and hundreds of thousands of its own soldiers died routinely. You know, soldiers who would have been more useful in defending the borders. In the third century crisis they often had several emperors in the same bloody year. And a literally bloody year it was when that happened.

Constantine (who also came to power in a civil war, btw) held about 400,000 soldiers as his personal guard just to deter potential usurpers, and that was a ludicrious percentage of the Empire's armies. He had pretty much depopulated the border garrisons just to keep his own throne safe.

In that sense, inventing a divine claim to the throne there was actually a step forward from "whose army is the biggest" system of previous centuries.

Barbarians had just become a bigger problem than ever too. See, previously Germans and Celts had been hunter-gatherers with small populations and poor equipment. Rome could deal with that. But then at the start of the current era, a plough was invented that worked in Germany. A population boom followed. Those tribes could now throw more and more people at Rome's borders, and soon they could pierce the defense in any point they wanted.

A second thing happened in Germany too: the invention of the horseshoe. While it doesn't get as much press as the stirrups, it raised the efficiency of gothic cavalry almost overnight. Rome's legions and equipment switched from an offensive thing, to just trying to defend.

Plague was an even bigger problem. At the peak of one of several plague outbursts, 5000 people per day died in Rome. (Though that would later be topped by Justinian's plague which killed 10,000 a day in Constantinople at its peak.) The economy and manpower of Rome pretty much imploded, to the effect where they couldn't sustain their legions on the border or their pay or their equipment.

In a couple of centuries, Rome went from well over 1 million inhabitants, to about 20,000 people living among acres upon acres of ruins and abandoned buildings. Think: a Fallout scenario.

But plague didn't just hit the economy and manpower, it hit morale hard. The rise of Christianity didn't _cause_ the decline of Rome. On the contrary, it was _caused_ by it. People lost faith in the old Gods who had failed to protect them, and turned to any esoteric eastern things instead. Not just Christianity but also stuff like the mysteries of Mithras.

Legions got to be 500 to 1000 people fortified somewhere defensively, down from about 6000. Soldiers' pay, also due to devaluing the coins, went down to bare subsistence levels, so enlistment also disappeared. The Empire had to enforce conscription (with penalties going at times all the way to burning at the stake for self-mutilation to escape conscription.) Tactics switched from offensive to trying to minimize casualties, because soldiers had become that hard to replace. Equipment fell back to chain and spears just because they couldn't afford to give them a segmented armour any more.

Etc.

And then came Justinian's plague, as Justinian's reconquest to Italy brought it there too. The economy of Italy pretty much just collapsed. The country side got too depopulated to support either any noteworthy cities or any noteworthy army. You can guess how bad it got when Italy was just rolled over by a tribe as primitive as the Longobards.

Not that in other places it was much better. The Franks weren't exactly intellectual giants when they overran Europe. Charlemagne was the first germanic monarch who wasn't illiterate and proud of it. Well, he still was illiterate, but he did try earnestly to learn to read and write, albeit with very limited success. In Britannia the plague pretty much wiped out their manpower and economy too, so they had to bring in the Angles and Saxons to keep the Picts in check. And then got overrun by them when they could no longer pay them.

And in a nutshell _that_ is how the Dark ages started. Blaming it only on Christianity is just ignorant. It was a general collapse of society on such a scale, that no religion could have caused or stopped.
 
I'd like to recommend the book Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and the video series Connections by James Burke. The first explores (among many other things), why some groups had more opportunities to make particular "leaps forward" while others did not. The latter shows some interesting contingencies that made particular inventions possible. Burke is an energetic presenter.

CT
 
The Roman army was widely using articulated iron plate armour by the start
of the 1st Century. Bits of it are found all over the empire - including recently
in the middle East too, where it was hitherto not thought to have been used.
Come to think of it, there are also several articulated bronze plate panoplies
known in Greek and near eastern sites from Mycenean and Hittite times. The
use of mail was actually something of a backward step in late-Roman and
early medieval times.
What you say is true, but if you compare the metallurgy of the Roman Lorica Segmentata to the later C15th plate harnesses, there's quite a lot of development there.

The Romans, however, were responsible for the distribution of mail, which they called Lorica Hamata throughout Europe. And that's why mail is the most common armour throughout the Dark Ages and Early Mediaeval periods - there were manufacturing centres dotted all over Europe, and they didn't stop just because the Romans left.
 
And in a nutshell _that_ is how the Dark ages started. Blaming it only on Christianity is just ignorant. It was a general collapse of society on such a scale, that no religion could have caused or stopped.
Very good summary, Hans. Very clear and succinct. Nominated!.

I'd like to recommend the book Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and the video series Connections by James Burke. The first explores (among many other things), why some groups had more opportunities to make particular "leaps forward" while others did not. The latter shows some interesting contingencies that made particular inventions possible. Burke is an energetic presenter.
I'd like to second the recommendation for Connections. I've got all three seasons on DVD (yes, including the elusive Season 1). Brilliant stuff.
 
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The Roman army was widely using articulated iron plate armour by the start
of the 1st Century. Bits of it are found all over the empire - including recently
in the middle East too, where it was hitherto not thought to have been used.
Come to think of it, there are also several articulated bronze plate panoplies
known in Greek and near eastern sites from Mycenean and Hittite times. The
use of mail was actually something of a backward step in late-Roman and
early medieval times.

I humbly suggest you look into byzantine lamellar armour, which was a step up from both the banded mail of Rome and the chain mail, and quite up to the standards of later plate. Alexios Comnenos was claimed to have taken two direct lance hits from crusader cavalry charges while wearing it, and he just got back on his horse and continued to fight.

Like many other things, it was invented during what we call the "Dark Ages."

There is very little proof or rational reason to believe that most of the science of the science of Rome got simply lost, when the Eastern half of the same bloody empire survived just fine and continued to (A) use, and (B) improve it.

Technically the eastern empire was in fact _the_ Roman empire. At some point the Emperor moved to Byzantium and the western part that actually included Rome, was reduced to a vassal grand duchy. Do you see any logical reason why all those craftsmen and philosophers who moved with the court forgot to take their know-how with them?

But even in the West, off the top of my head, there were such things as stirrups, romanesque architecture, gothic architecture (quite clever physics those buttresses, not just ornamental), the horse-drawn plough, increasingly sophisticated ships, the trebuchet, firearms, etc, which were invented during the "Dark Ages" or right at their end. In the East, you have the Greek Fire, a _lot_ of alchemy works that were of actually scientific value, and even a case could be made for the invention of differential tempering. And probably a gazillion more things that I forget right now.

Basically just because a guy can draw a funky graph with a dip in it, it doesn't make it actually true.
 
The notion that the Dark Ages were purely a product of Christianity is a massive over-simplification on many levels.

...snip awesome exegesis...


Putting the "E" in JREF. I'm glad I got up this morning.
 
Thank you very much for your write-up, Hans.

Putting the "E" in JREF. I'm glad I got up this morning.
True, that.

Um, what has the Mayan calendar got to do with the OP?
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Weren't there a number of societies that flourished during the so-called "Dark Ages" making many technological breakthroughs? Isn't the very idea of the "Dark Ages" rather Euro-centric?
 
The Mayans were pragmatic. They used ours as a model.
What do you base this assertion on, the fact that the Mayans used a circle in which to draw calenders? This would be very flimsy reasoning. Also, what does the baktun calender have to do with the Milky Way galaxy? Does it in some way correspond to any galactic movement?

Ours is a spiral Galaxy with a central gravity disk.
The best current models show the Milky Way to be a barred spiral. And what is a "gravity disk"? Things like galaxies and dust clouds will often form into a flattened disk due to the effects of gravity, but I've never heard of a "gravity disk", let alone a "central gravity disk" in cosmology.

It was my pleasure to teach you this lesson of pragamatism and Galactic Science.
I think I'll stick with Wollery as resident JREF expert regarding matters of cosmology.
 
Weren't there a number of societies that flourished during the so-called "Dark Ages" making many technological breakthroughs? Isn't the very idea of the "Dark Ages" rather Euro-centric?

Very much so, I'm affraid. On both counts.

Well, really it wasn't even as much Euro-centric as Western-Europe-centric. As I was saying, the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) was doing very well in the South-Eastern Europe at the time. In fact, the Byzantine Empire had a "golden age" roughly between 641 and 1025 AD. The same centuries when Western Europe was having its darkest hour, were the centuries where the Eastern part of the Roman empire was having the peak of its power, arts flourished, etc.
 
An interesting work of science fiction that has the Jesuits in space is The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. Which make the humor more of a huh?, ok, if you think that's funny, it's a bit short-sighted/narrow-minded, etc.
 
Why do you need waste any resources? Using your resources to fight Christianity allowed about 36 million people to starve in the word in 2006. Christians, of which I am not one, spent lots of money trying to feed many of those babies. Of course the big anti force associated with that was the Catholic Church stance on Family planning. You can't lump all Christians into a courtroom in rural Pennsylvania. Do you guys know the difference between bigotry and skepticism?

I can appreciate you wanting to shift the talking to something you are interested in, alfalfafour, but the OP is about history, and I'd like to pursue that just a bit.

The Greek civilization started with the ancient Greeks. They were weakened as a civilization by the explosion of Santorini and then wiped out by invasions from the northeast. The invaders took up the Greek civilization and raised it to completely unprecedented heights - all within 1200 years. Why then did Western Europe lay fallow from the death of Rome until the Renaissance? It covered a hugely larger landmass, a lot more arable land and natural resources, many times more people, had the advantages of both the Greek and Roman civilizations behind it, and it couldn't kick-start itself in spite of Charlemagne for over 800 years at least?

Studying history is bigotry? What does feeding people today and Dover, PA have to do with this? Answer the arguments specifically or don't, but don't stand here throwing accusations at those who may know better. Go on, convince me that my viewpoint is wrong.

Or don't.
 
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As far as I recall this thread was created to discuss a particular poster that suggested that we might be more technologically advanced if the dark ages had not happened.

I don't know where you got the impression that the thread was in any way directed toward "Galactic understanding" (whatever that phrase means to you).

So yes, I believe that you are mistaken.

Maybe the subject line?

"Has Christianity kept us from exploring the galaxy? "



Perhaps it was athiest blinders that "kept us from exploring the galaxy?

Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Explore the Galaxy,Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.

Can we find the subject line?
 
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Maybe the subject line?

"Has Christianity kept us from exploring the galaxy? "



Perhaps it was athiest blinders that "kept us from exploring the galaxy?

Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Explore the Galaxy,Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.

Can we find the subject line?


So what is it you really want to say?

For the record, someone posted an interesting graph. Others here said 'Yeah, its nice, but not really accurate'. In other words, it seems like Atheists don't really think that Christianity has prevented huamanity from exploring the galaxy, at this time.
 

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