Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

This issue in question starts at 26 minutes and 22 seconds into the 2nd program.

I've listened to it a few times and if talking about elemental aluminum = talking about particle size, then Tony is correct. But if that isn't the case then the discussion and the size was for the paint chips, thereby making Mackey correct. Though according to what he thought you guys were talking about at the time (just the paint chips), Mackey is still correct based on the quote rip posted.

I might be in over my head here, but I don't see a reference to elemental aluminum in the quote you posted, Tony.

Tell me what you guys think.

Link to the 2nd program.

The whole basis for nanometer size vs. micron size particles in thermite is the reaction time, due to a much greater surface area to mass ratio of the nano size from than that of micron size particles. Nano sizing of the particles makes thermite into an energetic material. The sizes of the actual surviving small pieces of macroscopic material is not germane to the conversation so I don't understand why Ryan would be discussing that.

You should read the paper if you want to see the elemental aluminum discussion.
 
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I've become confused by Tony's discussion of thermite. While it is necessary to invoke thermite to explain things his way, he is no expert on this. The complete failure of the thermite community - and yes, there is a large thermite research community - to be consulted on this is important.

Tony has complained repeatedly that others do not understand his argument. He does not understand the complex nature of thermite and refuses to consult or discuss this with anyone who does.

While he cloaks his discourse in phrases that sound complex and scientific, this appeal to thermite - and more particularly, nano-thermite - shows he should be taken as seriously as the high school students that make up We Are Change. Now the conspiracy's grown to envolope the termite research community. What a joke, and I'm not hiding behind a pseudo-name.

All I said in the debate about it was that I would like to know why energetic material was found in the WTC dust and made mention of a couple things which are in the paper written by people who actually did the analysis and are experts in nano chemistry.

Have you read the paper?

I think one would have to consider scott.in.taiwan a pseudo-name if that is what you are referring to in this comment.
 
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I've become confused by Tony's discussion of thermite. While it is necessary to invoke thermite to explain things his way, he is no expert on this. The complete failure of the thermite community - and yes, there is a large thermite research community - to be consulted on this is important.

Tony has complained repeatedly that others do not understand his argument. He does not understand the complex nature of thermite and refuses to consult or discuss this with anyone who does.

While he cloaks his discourse in phrases that sound complex and scientific, this appeal to thermite - and more particularly, nano-thermite - shows he should be taken as seriously as the high school students that make up We Are Change. Now the conspiracy's grown to envolope the termite research community. What a joke, and I'm not hiding behind a pseudo-name.

I'm not confused by Tony's discussion of thermite.

If he can't have any military personell make a statement that thermite, of any kind, was found in the dust then his assumptions are just that, assumptions. Also the military would have to conduct tests of the dust sample that a Truther happened to have for nearly 3 years or more.

How do we know that the dust sample they have is contaminated? Not a single Truther would ever talk about it being contaminated because they know full well that if it is, their theory about thermite being present in the dust would turn out to be a lie.

If that's the case then what they assume is in essence, a lie.
 
All I said in the debate about it was that I would like to know why energetic material was found in the WTC dust and made mention of a couple things which are in the paper written by people who actually did the analysis and are experts in nano chemistry.

Have you read the paper?

I think one would have to consider scott.in.taiwan a pseudo-name if that is what you are referring to in this comment.

I would like to know if what you assume might be contamined Tony?

Do you know if the dust sample that 1 of your people collected was contaminated in any way?
 
I would like to know if what you assume might be contamined Tony?

Do you know if the dust sample that 1 of your people collected was contaminated in any way?

I understand that the USGS has a large amount of the dust and it should be tested. One would think there is some chain of custody there.
 
I understand that the USGS has a large amount of the dust and it should be tested. One would think there is some chain of custody there.

Ok Tony,

Can you exlain to us why the WTC dust samples that were collected didn't contain any reddish charactoristics in it, if indeed there was unexploded thermite?
 
WTC Dust vs Thermite:

The red/gray chips comprised approximately .01% of the dust so how much do you think they would affect the color of the dust?

The WTC dust was primarily gypsum and concrete, but those red/gray chips which may have a story to tell were buried in there.
 
The red/gray chips comprised approximately .01% of the dust so how much do you think they would affect the color of the dust?

The WTC dust was primarily gypsum and concrete, but those red/gray chips which may have a story to tell were buried in there.

Tony,

Unexploded thermite would dramatically make the WTC dust sample a bit red in color.

What you've just pointed out about those red/grey chips is nothing more than paint chips.

I've been a painter for a long time along with being a Vol. Firefighter, I know what paint chips look like & what you've just described is nothing more than paint chips.

Primer from that time was grey in color, hence the grey color on the chip.
 
All I said in the debate about it was that I would like to know why energetic material was found in the WTC dust and made mention of a couple things which are in the paper written by people who actually did the analysis and are experts in nano chemistry.

Have you read the paper?

I think one would have to consider scott.in.taiwan a pseudo-name if that is what you are referring to in this comment.

Thank you for responding to my remarks. I apologize for having to be so heavy handed, but in this genre of writing it is sometimes necessary. Yes, I have looked at the paper, but technically, it is beyond me. This is simply not important to my understanding of the problem.

First. Tony, I imagine your internet search skills are good enough to type my pseudo-name into Google. If you want, we can become facebook friends and share personal information - seriously.

Second. Tony, there was no energetic material found in the WTC dust. Steven Jones has no experience at all dealing with this kind of material - and you know it. He has no collaboration from anyone - not even one person - who does have this experience. There is no one in the thermite research community who supports his claim. None of his so-called research team has even attempted to publish this claim in a journal that deals with this specialized research. The journal he published it with is questionable, And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But you know all this. So why are you still talking about energetic materials?

In all honesty, when I first read your stuff, I thought...wow, this is cool. As stupid as the idea of CD is, at least you're dealing with it the way it needs to be handled. But if you start talking about energetic materials and all that that means, you become just all the other kids at We Are Change.

Scott Sommers.
 
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The whole basis for nanometer size vs. micron size particles in thermite is the reaction time, due to a much greater surface area to mass ratio of the nano size from than that of micron size particles. Nano sizing of the particles makes thermite into an energetic material. The sizes of the actual surviving small pieces of macroscopic material is not germane to the conversation so I don't understand why Ryan would be discussing that.

You should read the paper if you want to see the elemental aluminum discussion.

Let me clarify myself.

I understand the phenomenon you are discussing and I am sure Mackey and pomeroo do too. The issue is that the conversation was about the paint chips and is it correct to say that the paint chips were micron size and not nm size? This may not be relevant when discussing SA to mass ratios wrt particles but that wasn't what was being discussed. Simply the paint chips.

I think that Mackey addressed the elemental aluminum by saying they didn't test to see if it was aluminum oxide. I'll take your advice and read the paper but what difference would it make if it were instead aluminum oxide instead? If that isn't discussed in the paper do you mind responding to that issue?
 
Look at this photo very carefully Tony. What do you see?

The red paint had lead in it to prevent rusting. That lead was colored red! Look below:

250px-Red_lead.jpg
 

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I fail to see why some posters here find it necessary to try and make fun of how Tony looks or how he performed in an oral debate....seems a bit childish.

I agree. Many of the attacks in this thread are totally unsophisticated. All of you need to knock it off. Tony has made numerous mistakes you can pick on, if you wish, don't make an ass of yourself by saying he looks dumb or should be selling cars. That's stupid.

I was totally confused by most of Tony's arguments, but I am an engineer. The one that I found most bizarre was the argument that if a plate was supported by 30 columns and 27 of them were removed than that would fail at 70% gravity. Seems complete nonsense to me. A buckling failure is a rapid failure and once initiated there is little or no resistance ..

Precisely right. Once the capacity is exceeded, the columns will resist only until they buckle, and afterwards don't resist much at all. As I noted in the debate, what slows the collapse is momentum transfer, not the strength. Dr. Bazant computes in the BLGB paper -- correctly -- that the structural strength is a minor correction to the overall collapse, so minor that you cannot tell whether all the columns were loaded to failure or simply pushed aside from the collapse time alone. It just doesn't make a significant difference.

I am not sure where he got the 3 from, but more importantly the floors are not designed to hold the building above, the columns are.

Yup. He may have originally gotten that factor of 3 from Heiwa, but wherever he got it, it's wrong. Already covered that in this very thread.


Regarding the nano- vs. micro- nature of the particles, I was referring to the particles within the paint chips, not the chips themselves. As Tony quotes:

From page 12 of the paper

The results indicate that the small particles with very high BSE
intensity (brightness) are consistently 100 nm in size and
have a faceted appearance. These bright particles are seen
intermixed with plate-like particles that have intermediate
BSE intensity and are approximately 40 nm thick and up to
about 1 micron across.


To say the particles were not nanometer size is not accurate.

But his interpretation is wrong. The "aluminum" flakes are hexagonal "plate-like" particles up to a micron across. They're micron sized, not nanometer sized. QED.

In real nanothermite, as described by its creators such as Dr. Tillotson, the aluminum is in spheres about 30-50 nm across, and the iron oxide in extremely small particles as small as 7 nm. The structures seen in Dr. Jones's samples are 20 to 100 times as large.

By the way, look up in what common forms aluminum oxide mineral occurs naturally. Here's a hint: Microscopic hexagonal platelets... ;)

And, to answer the question above, aluminum oxide is inert for purposes of a thermite reaction. Its presence is a dead giveaway that it ain't thermite, nano- or otherwise.

I did poke fun at Ryan though, that screen shot was horrible. I couldn't figure out if it was part of the technical difficulty or they used it on purpose for effect.

I had no control over that. Gary chose the poses. If it brings a little levity, eh, what's the big deal?

---

Gary is also busily adding subtitles to the second show. I hope this helps improve the presentation. We work with what we have.
 
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Let me clarify myself.

I understand the phenomenon you are discussing and I am sure Mackey and pomeroo do too. The issue is that the conversation was about the paint chips and is it correct to say that the paint chips were micron size and not nm size? This may not be relevant when discussing SA to mass ratios wrt particles but that wasn't what was being discussed. Simply the paint chips.

I think that Mackey addressed the elemental aluminum by saying they didn't test to see if it was aluminum oxide. I'll take your advice and read the paper but what difference would it make if it were instead aluminum oxide instead? If that isn't discussed in the paper do you mind responding to that issue?

I think they do discuss the aluminum vs. aluminum oxide issue in the paper.

One must also realize that aluminum always gets a natural oxide when exposed to the atmosphere. From what I have read a thin film of aluminum oxide on the particles in nanothermite does not inhibit the reaction and is actually induced to control it and allow handling.
 
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Thank you for responding to my remarks. I apologize for having to be so heavy handed, but in this genre of writing it is sometimes necessary. Yes, I have looked at the paper, but technically, it is beyond me. This is simply not important to my understanding of the problem.

First. Tony, I imagine your internet search skills are good enough to type my pseudo-name into Google. If you want, we can become facebook friends and share personal information - seriously.

Second. Tony, there was no energetic material found in the WTC dust. Steven Jones has no experience at all dealing with this kind of material - and you know it. He has no collaboration from anyone - not even one person - who does have this experience. There is no one in the thermite research community who supports his claim. None of his so-called research team has even attempted to publish this claim in a journal that deals with this specialized research. The journal he published it with is questionable, And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But you know all this. So why are you still talking about energetic materials?

In all honesty, when I first read your stuff, I thought...wow, this is cool. As stupid as the idea of CD is, at least you're dealing with it the way it needs to be handled. But if you start talking about energetic materials and all that that means, you become just all the other kids at We Are Change.

Scott Sommers.

Thanks for the rational comments Scott and it is good to know your real name.

I do think that the present official explanations for the collapses of the towers are insufficient as we now know there was no impulsive load, and that there needs to be additional work in explaining the collapses.

As for the red/gray chips, I would very much like to see the U.S. government test the samples it has to put this controversy to bed. If several samples were tested by several chemists and found to be inert, and Steven Jones, Neils Harrit, and their colleagues shown the results I would accept that.
 
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Look at this photo very carefully Tony. What do you see?

The red paint had lead in it to prevent rusting. That lead was colored red! Look below:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Red_lead.jpg/250px-Red_lead.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, I understand the primer on the steel was red and that there would be a chance that these chips are paint. I believe Steven Jones and co. did get a sample of the WTC paint and that it was not of the same microscopic structure found in the red/gray chips.

I would like to see the U.S. government test the samples of dust that it has in it's possession.
 
I think they do discuss the aluminum vs. aluminum oxide issue in the paper.

One must also realize that aluminum always gets a natural oxide when exposed to the atmosphere. From what I have read a thin film of aluminum oxide on the particles in nanothermite does not inhibit the reaction and is actually induced to control it and allow handling.

Alright I'll check out the paper on the discussion.
 
Yes, I understand the primer on the steel was red and that there would be a chance that these chips are paint. I believe Steven Jones and co. did get a sample of the WTC paint and that it was not of the same microscopic structure found in the red/gray chips.

I would like to see the U.S. government test the samples of dust that it has in it's possession.

Tony,

Then what Steven Jones got was a contaminated sample.

The lead based paint found in the chips contains iron.

Lead Tetroxide Chemical properties:

With iron oxides and with elementary iron, lead tetroxide forms insoluble iron and iron plumbates, which is the basis of the anti-corrosive properties of lead-based paints applied to iron objects.

When heated to 500 °C, it decomposes to lead oxide and oxygen. At 580 °C, the reaction is complete.

2 Pb3O4 → 6 PbO + O2

Nitric acid dissolves the lead oxide component, leaving behind the insoluble lead oxide:

Pb3O4 + 4 HNO3 → PbO2 + 2 Pb(NO3)2 + 2 H2O

This was taken from here - http://stj911.org/press_releases/ActiveThermiticMaterial.html

"Those particles turned out to be iron-rich microspheres, partially described in a 2001 USGS study of the dust"

Iron rich "microspheres"! Iron which is found in lead based paint, which is iron itself.

Coincidence? I think not!
 
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Tony,
You missed my point about floors vs. columns, and what the upper part "landed" on.
 

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