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Hardfire: Physics of 9/11

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It's difficult.

It took them less than SEVEN YEARS to figure out how much steel and concrete to put on every level of the towers. But some people aren't even asking the question after that much time. What's are wheat chex. :D :D

psik


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psi- You don't really believe the collapse would have been arrested do you? I mean you've seen femr2's simulator. You can see even in this rough state, the collapse progresses. The distribution of mass doesn't change the collapse much due to the fact that the distribution was linear. Any increase or decrease will be seen in each and every floor. This doesn't change the net effect. I know you've already pre-objected to any computer simulation, based on some "TRUST" thing, but you don't really believe this do you? This is just another premptive strike against rationality right? You can tell me, I won't say anything to anyone. It'll be our little conspiracy ;)
 
psi- You don't really believe the collapse would have been arrested do you?
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first of all, it never should have started.

If you have 12 levels coming down on the north tower. The falling portion cannot remain intact during the collision. For every level in the lower portion destroyed at least one in the falling portion would be destroyed.

That little matter for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

But the energy required to destroy two levels simultaneously can only come from one place, the kinetic energy of the falling mass. But the mass of the lower stationary level must be accelerated also therefore the conservation of momentum comes into play in addition to the energy lost bending and dislocating steel further slowing the falling mass.

So suppose out of the generosity of my heart I grant the falling portion a two to one advantage. 12 stories fall and destroy 24 and 1 lost in the gap for the fall. 37 stories out of a 110 story building. More then 70 stories would have been left standing after it was arrested. But I think an arrest would be unlikely. The top probably would not stay centered and would fall down the side of the building. That is even more likely with the south tower because of the tilt. It should have crushed one side of the building more causing progressively more tilt until it came down the side. My demonstration arrests of course because the dowel makes it impossible for anything else to happen. That demonstration is to show the effect of mass on the collapse. This business of the mass just adding up and accelerating at the same time was always ridiculous.

Look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SSS0DDqfm0

The perimeter columns were 3'4" center-to-center. When the collapse starts the bottom of the top portion that was about to fall moved sideways more than 20 feet. This was 56 minutes after impact and 52 minutes after the oscillation from the impact had ceased. So how did FIRE cause that sideways motion?

So we can't analyze the oscillation or the collapse without accurate distribution of steel and concrete data. So why don't we have it after SEVEN YEARS. I don't give a damn what professionals say about a grade school physics problem when they don't supply complete data about it. Can't tell us the weights and numbers of the perimeter wall panels in seven years. RIDICULOUS!!!

psik
 
On Edit: Whoops. Sorry, Mackey. Didn't mean to continue the derail.
 
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EDIT: removed... I forgot which thread I was posting in, and I don't feel right contributing my own derail after repeated requests from the author to refrain from doing so...
 
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first of all, it never should have started.

If you have 12 levels coming down on the north tower. The falling portion cannot remain intact during the collision. For every level in the lower portion destroyed at least one in the falling portion would be destroyed.

That little matter for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

But the energy required to destroy two levels simultaneously can only come from one place, the kinetic energy of the falling mass. But the mass of the lower stationary level must be accelerated also therefore the conservation of momentum comes into play in addition to the energy lost bending and dislocating steel further slowing the falling mass.

So suppose out of the generosity of my heart I grant the falling portion a two to one advantage. 12 stories fall and destroy 24 and 1 lost in the gap for the fall. 37 stories out of a 110 story building. More then 70 stories would have been left standing after it was arrested. But I think an arrest would be unlikely. The top probably would not stay centered and would fall down the side of the building. That is even more likely with the south tower because of the tilt. It should have crushed one side of the building more causing progressively more tilt until it came down the side. My demonstration arrests of course because the dowel makes it impossible for anything else to happen. That demonstration is to show the effect of mass on the collapse. This business of the mass just adding up and accelerating at the same time was always ridiculous.

Look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SSS0DDqfm0

The perimeter columns were 3'4" center-to-center. When the collapse starts the bottom of the top portion that was about to fall moved sideways more than 20 feet. This was 56 minutes after impact and 52 minutes after the oscillation from the impact had ceased. So how did FIRE cause that sideways motion?

So we can't analyze the oscillation or the collapse without accurate distribution of steel and concrete data. So why don't we have it after SEVEN YEARS. I don't give a damn what professionals say about a grade school physics problem when they don't supply complete data about it. Can't tell us the weights and numbers of the perimeter wall panels in seven years. RIDICULOUS!!!

psik


Why don't the engineers agree with you about the significance (which you never explain) of the weights of the perimeter panels? We understand that the opinion of qualified professionals means nothing to you, but they do know much more than you do. Maybe their opinion should count for something.
 
Why don't the engineers agree with you about the significance (which you never explain) of the weights of the perimeter panels? We understand that the opinion of qualified professionals means nothing to you, but they do know much more than you do. Maybe their opinion should count for something.
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Yeah the graphics and the model in this video from MIT are so much better than mine.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6633534908581013879

ROFLMAO

They put that on television in 2002. The way those rectangular sections of floor slab are falling in the graphic is IMPOSSIBLE. The floor slabs were poured to harden as a single solid piece. That wooden model is a joke. Even if the floor slabs dropped the "spandrels" built into the perimeter wall panels would still be in place.

You talk like ALL OF THE ENGINEERS are on one side but in fact the vast majority are saying NOTHING. These models are too complex and expensive for our engineering schools that charge $100,000 for 4 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAerZUw4Wc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

Our schools are designed to teach that it is INTELLIGENT to think what AUTHORITY tells you to think. Even if it makes nonsense of grade school physics. The mass of the perimeter wall panels would be part of what had to be accelerated downward if what happened was a gravitational collapse. As I have said numerous times the planes started oscillations in the buildings and this is well documented in the case of the south tower. This meant the horizontal movement of mass included the PERIMETER WALL PANELS. Therefore in order to determine the portion of the kinetic energy of the planes that went into the oscillations the mass of the panels must be known.

I emailed my videos to this guy:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm

No response rom Wisconsin engineering yet. Of course this entire business is a problem for our engineering schools after all of this time. If the planes could not do it then how do they all explain not figuring it out within a few months. I came to that conclusion after two weeks.

psik
 
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Yeah the graphics and the model in this video from MIT are so much better than mine.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6633534908581013879

ROFLMAO

They put that on television in 2002. The way those rectangular sections of floor slab are falling in the graphic is IMPOSSIBLE. The floor slabs were poured to harden as a single solid piece. That wooden model is a joke. Even if the floor slabs dropped the "spandrels" built into the perimeter wall panels would still be in place.

You talk like ALL OF THE ENGINEERS are on one side but in fact the vast majority are saying NOTHING. These models are too complex and expensive for our engineering schools that charge $100,000 for 4 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAerZUw4Wc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

Our schools are designed to teach that it is INTELLIGENT to think what AUTHORITY tells you to think. Even if it makes nonsense of grade school physics. The mass of the perimeter wall panels would be part of what had to be accelerated downward if what happened was a gravitational collapse. As I have said numerous times the planes started oscillations in the buildings and this is well documented in the case of the south tower. This meant the horizontal movement of mass included the PERIMETER WALL PANELS. Therefore in order to determine the portion of the kinetic energy of the planes that went into the oscillations the mass of the panels must be known.

I emailed my videos to this guy:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm

No response rom Wisconsin engineering yet. Of course this entire business is a problem for our engineering schools after all of this time. If the planes could not do it then how do they all explain not figuring it out within a few months. I came to that conclusion after two weeks.

psik

How did you build your model without the knowledge you say is essential to build a model?
 
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Yeah the graphics and the model in this video from MIT are so much better than mine.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6633534908581013879

ROFLMAO

They put that on television in 2002. The way those rectangular sections of floor slab are falling in the graphic is IMPOSSIBLE. The floor slabs were poured to harden as a single solid piece. That wooden model is a joke. Even if the floor slabs dropped the "spandrels" built into the perimeter wall panels would still be in place.

You talk like ALL OF THE ENGINEERS are on one side but in fact the vast majority are saying NOTHING. These models are too complex and expensive for our engineering schools that charge $100,000 for 4 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAerZUw4Wc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

Our schools are designed to teach that it is INTELLIGENT to think what AUTHORITY tells you to think. Even if it makes nonsense of grade school physics. The mass of the perimeter wall panels would be part of what had to be accelerated downward if what happened was a gravitational collapse. As I have said numerous times the planes started oscillations in the buildings and this is well documented in the case of the south tower. This meant the horizontal movement of mass included the PERIMETER WALL PANELS. Therefore in order to determine the portion of the kinetic energy of the planes that went into the oscillations the mass of the panels must be known.

I emailed my videos to this guy:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm

No response rom Wisconsin engineering yet. Of course this entire business is a problem for our engineering schools after all of this time. If the planes could not do it then how do they all explain not figuring it out within a few months. I came to that conclusion after two weeks.

psik



But you came to the wrong conclusion because you don't know much. What is hard, even impossible, for you is easy for engineers. I have noticed a tendency among you believers in this ridiculous conspiracy theory to imagine that people with technical backgrounds constantly overlook things that people who know much less can see. Humility is a virtue. Your lack of it prevents you from ever learning anything.
 
But you came to the wrong conclusion because you don't know much. What is hard, even impossible, for you is easy for engineers. I have noticed a tendency among you believers in this ridiculous conspiracy theory to imagine that people with technical backgrounds constantly overlook things that people who know much less can see. Humility is a virtue. Your lack of it prevents you from ever learning anything.
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What Conspiracr Theory have I EVER talked about?

Provide a link to my discussing any conspiracy theory.

You people put your opponents into GROUPS and then assume everyone you put in that group is talking the same crap. You are free to explain what is wrong with my models and what ENGINEERS have done which is so great that invalidates anything I demonstrated in the models.

It is not my fault that you WORSHIP people you call engineers. I had that title at IBM. I just dealt with electronics not buildings.

psik
 
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What Conspiracr Theory have I EVER talked about?

Provide a link to my discussing any conspiracy theory.

You people put your opponents into GROUPS and then assume everyone you put in that group is talking the same crap. You are free to explain what is wrong with my models and what ENGINEERS have done which is so great that invalidates anything I demonstrated in the models.

It is not my fault that you WORSHIP people you call engineers. I had that title at IBM. I just dealt with electronics not buildings.

psik


Why is my respect for people who know more than I do a form of "worship"? You use words in a strange way. The engineers here have explained what is wrong with your models. You can't understand the explanations, so you criticize them. You keep ranting about the weight of the perimeter columns and the engineers tell you that it is not significant. You can't tell us why they are wrong. Maybe you know something about electronics. You know very little about buildings and you can't learn from people who design them.
 
How did you build your model without the knowledge you say is essential to build a model?
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I do not claim that my models are SCALED.

My models are designed to demonstrate physical principles only.

I am so glad the GREAT Ryan Mackey brought up that SCALING business. :D :D

So when is he going to demand the data from the NIST to do the scaling? :duck:

If you watch the videos you will notice that both models are built to CHANGE THE CONDITIONS and demonstrate that these changes AFFECT THE BEHAVIOR OF THE MODEL.

My point, WHICH YOU PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET, is to demonstrate that the information is necessary to analyze what happened to the WTC buildings and it is ridiculous to argue for SEVEN YEARS without having that info. So why aren't the supposed experts demanding it and that it be made public? Including the obnoxious RICHARD GAGE.

psik
 
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I do not claim that my models are SCALED.

My models are designed to demonstrate physical principles only.

I am so glad the GREAT Ryan Mackey brought up that SCALING business. :D :D

So when is he going to demand the data from the NIST to do the scaling? :duck:

If you watch the videos you will notice that both models are built to CHANGE THE CONDITIONS and demonstrate that these changes AFFECT THE BEHAVIOR OF THE MODEL.

My point, WHICH YOU PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET, is to demonstrate that the information is necessary to analyze what happened to the WTC buildings and it is ridiculous to argue for SEVEN YEARS without having that info. So why aren't the supposed experts demanding it and that it be made public? Including the obnoxious RICHARD GAGE.

psik

You apparently didn't understand my question. Engineers keep telling you that the information you claim to want is insignificant. You have discovered something that shows them to be wrong. What is it? Why are they wrong?

If you look at the situation from a logical standpoint, your disagreement with the engineers here is total. No reconciliation seems possible. You are not on their plane. Either you are far below them or you are far above them. Either you can't learn from people who know much more than you do or they are too dumb to appreciate your genius. Which is it?
 
Why is my respect for people who know more than I do a form of "worship"?
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You don't know the difference between respect and subservience.

You don't DEMAND that they explain simple things in a comprehensible manner. In reality grade school kids in a playground deal with the conservation of momentum on a regular basis, they just don't know the equation. But they can predict how masses of various sizes will behave more or less when they collide with each other.

The supposed downward collisions of the WTC towers make no sense in terms of the way mass and strength must be distributed in a skyscraper in order for it to support its weight and withstand the wind for 28 years.

So why haven't we been told the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level? Why doesn't RICHARD GAGE make a big deal about it? He emailed back that he agreed with me when I emailed him about Frank Greening being wrong in his potential energy assumptions. He hasn't responded about the collapse video though.

I have communicated with Truthers that have the same attitude as you but they worship Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. Same mind set, different religion. I am about understanding things objectively for myself.

You are of course free to explain what principles of physics are violated in my models. Of course they are sufficiently simple to build and test yourself so it should be hard for me to cheat.

psik
 
So psikeyhackr anybody who dares agree with an expert who disagrees with you is just some non-thinking automaton?
 
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You don't know the difference between respect and subservience.

You don't DEMAND that they explain simple things in a comprehensible manner. In reality grade school kids in a playground deal with the conservation of momentum on a regular basis, they just don't know the equation. But they can predict how masses of various sizes will behave more or less when they collide with each other.

The supposed downward collisions of the WTC towers make no sense in terms of the way mass and strength must be distributed in a skyscraper in order for it to support its weight and withstand the wind for 28 years.

So why haven't we been told the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level? Why doesn't RICHARD GAGE make a big deal about it? He emailed back that he agreed with me when I emailed him about Frank Greening being wrong in his potential energy assumptions. He hasn't responded about the collapse video though.

I have communicated with Truthers that have the same attitude as you but they worship Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. Same mind set, different religion. I am about understanding things objectively for myself.

You are of course free to explain what principles of physics are violated in my models. Of course they are sufficiently simple to build and test yourself so it should be hard for me to cheat.

psik

This is starting to sound like a schoolyard game, but your own inability to tell the difference between respect and subservience is the reason why you can't learn anything. You want to approach every problem as though today is the world's first day. Nobody knows anything except you. Nobody's opinion matters. Years of study and experience count for nothing. You find it impossible to conceive of anybody knowing more than you do. Engineers here keep pointing out your mistakes, but nothing seems to register with you.

Tell us why they are wrong about the significance of the weight of the perimeter panels.
 
In reality grade school kids in a playground deal with the conservation of momentum on a regular basis, they just don't know the equation. But they can predict how masses of various sizes will behave more or less when they collide with each other.


Really? In my experience grade school kids, until they've studied high school level physics, are only good at predicting the results of collisions of objects they're familiar with at scales they're familiar with. Ask ten-year-olds what would likely happen if two earth-sized planets were to collide with one another. Most would probably describe them bouncing off each other like basketballs, because they're familiar with basketballs and that's what basketballs do when they collide. A few might predict instead that they'd get shattered into fragments that would go flying out in all directions, because that's kind of like what happened to the planet in Star Wars when the Death Star shot it. Very very few will make the correct prediction that they would coalesce into a hot molten mass. (What would your prediction be, by the way?)

The laws of physics are the same for the basketballs and the planets. (They don't appear to apply to the Death Star, but that's okay because the Death Star is a made up thing in a made up story.) But the effects of those laws in action are very different, because of differences in materials and scale. Same for your washers versus the WTC towers.

The supposed downward collisions of the WTC towers make no sense in terms of the way mass and strength must be distributed in a skyscraper in order for it to support its weight and withstand the wind for 28 years.


And yet, when you do the calculations based on the laws of physics, the collapses do make sense. You're making the same mistake as the children who guess that colliding planets would act like colliding basketballs, and for the same reason: you're applying intuition in a way that assumes that things at different scales behave the same, just because the underlying laws are the same. Such intuition is not based on analysis of those laws but on analogies with things you're more directly familiar with, like colliding vehicles. Ironically, applying those very same unchanging physical laws is what tells us that things don't behave the same at different scales, and in what ways, and why.

So why haven't we been told the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level?


Have you tried using the magic word?

Seriously, how many experts have you sent a polite communication requesting, "I'm having difficulty finding data with sufficient precision for a model I'm working on. Could you please cite me the best available sources of data from which the mass of the exterior column and spandrel assemblies at each floor?"

Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall you actually asking that question even here at the forum. Instead you ask, "Why haven't we been told the MASS OF etc..." which is like asking why haven't we been told the number of jellybeans that would fill the Titanic. The raw data is available for anyone who wants to calculate it, and no one else (not even, as you point out, Richard Gage) cares.

Why doesn't RICHARD GAGE make a big deal about it?


Apparently, Richard Gage hasn't reached the same conclusions about the significance of the precise mass of the wall units that you have. This suggests that at least one of you is wrong. Which is not, by the way, evidence that either of you are right.

You are of course free to explain what principles of physics are violated in my models. Of course they are sufficiently simple to build and test yourself so it should be hard for me to cheat.


Physical models don't violate the laws of physics. But the conclusions you draw from them might.

Colliding basketballs bounce off each other, in accordance with the laws of physics. But concluding from that that colliding planets bounce off each other ignores the laws of physics.

Colliding planets melt and coalesce, in accordance with the laws of physics. But concluding from that that colliding basketballs would melt and coalesce ignores the laws of physics.

Washers of a certain size supported by toothpicks of a certain size at certain distances arrest collapse part way down, in accordance with the laws of physics. But concluding from that that collapsing buildings must arrest collapse part way down ignores the laws of physics.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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But the mass of the lower stationary level must be accelerated also therefore the conservation of momentum comes into play in addition to the energy lost bending and dislocating steel further slowing the falling mass.

psik

No, not in addition. The energy that doesn't go into accelerating the mass, goes in to deformation. There is not use, only transfer. There is a complete transfer of energy, some in accelerating, some in deformation.

You guys are great with conserving momentum, but don't have a clue about conserving kinetic energy. If you have a shortage of kinetic energy after the collision it's pretty easy to figure out where it went into deformation. Energy can't be destroyed. Mmmmmmkay?
 
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Our schools are designed to teach that it is INTELLIGENT to think what AUTHORITY tells you to think.
psik


This is the furthest thing from the truth. The authority encourages you think as you like (I encourages new things, if everyone thought the same way, everything would be done the same way over and over again). There is no way to measure how you think, just a way to ensure you are right. I guess this could be confusing for people who are always wrong. You must think you are thinking the wrong way, because just about anyone who could think right, gets this right.
 
No, not in addition. The energy that doesn't go into accelerating the mass, goes in to deformation. There is not use, only transfer. There is a complete transfer of energy, some in accelerating, some in deformation.

You guys are great with conserving momentum, but don't have a clue about conserving kinetic energy. If you have a shortage of kinetic energy after the collision it's pretty easy to figure out where it went into deformation. Energy can't be destroyed. Mmmmmmkay?
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The supports must be bent, broken or dislocated. The mass must be accelerated to come down in less than 18 seconds.

What if there wasn't enough energy to do that even if none was lost in any other way?

Then the collapse was IMPOSSIBLE due to the planes and fires and SOMETHING ELSE had to be responsible. If we don't know the mass then we can't make Mackey's scaled model. You did notice all of those horizontal things labeled "m" in his 2-6 and 2-7 diagrams didn't you? I think it is pointless to talk theoretical bulldrek when you don't have the data.

So what is your objection to demanding the data from the NIST? What is wrong with knowing the number and weights of perimeter wall panels? :D :D

Trying to use physics to prove the physically impossible could happen must be a frustrating task. Of course that could be a reason to hide information.

psik
 
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The supports must be bent, broken or dislocated. The mass must be accelerated to come down in less than 18 seconds.
Or bolts connecting columns to one another shear, break, or fail in some other manner. Spandrels fail... If these parts fail then the strength of the column is meaningless.

If we don't know the mass then we can't make Mackey's scaled model. You did notice all of those horizontal things labeled "m" in his 2-6 and 2-7 diagrams didn't you? I think it is pointless to talk theoretical bulldrek when you don't have the data.

Design of Concrete Structures, 13th Edition and Steel Designer's Manual will provide you all the figures you ever need in order to calculate these on you own. Don't know why you're so obsessed with it... but have at it.


Trying to use physics to prove the physically impossible could happen must be a frustrating task. Of course that could be a reason to hide information.

psik
There's a thing called a FOIA request...
 

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