Hanging a Noose Can Get You Five Years

[Cavemonster]

The threat isn't plausible. It's not easy these days to get a lynch mob up, it's kinda fallen into social disrepute, like smoking, or speaking favorably of George Bush in Manhattan.

I don't think being beaten with a flaming cross is a likely way to die either. The noose, in the right context, is a loaded symbol. The actual form of the violence threatened is separate.

 

[Texas]

No. You're not black.

Well assuming you are, if you see a "noose" hanging on your neighbor's porch and feel "threatened" is it your contention that you should be able to call the cops and have him arrested and dragged into court to determine if he meant any harm to you?

 

[autumn1971]

Because it is location and time specific. See the link I provided for lynchings by year. It does not matter what the ratio is if your are the one at the end of the rope. In the time that lynchings were the most prevalent mob justice was common no matter what the race happened to be.

You can't really be ignoring the particular states listed, can you? Look at the southern states in your link.

 

[Texas]

I don't think being beaten with a flaming cross is a likely way to die either. The noose, in the right context, is a loaded symbol. The actual form of the violence threatened is separate.

Here is what the OP says:

Those who attempt to intimidate others by hanging a noose on their property could be sent to prison for five years under a bill that has passed out of a Virginia Senate committee.

Being "intimidated" is solely at the discretion of the person felling "intimidated". So someone could drive by a house and see a "noose" hanging and it then becomes a criminal matter that can lead to anything from a police visit to an arrest to a court trial and even 5 years in the slammer based on a person's "feelings of intimidation" and even if acquitted a financially ruinous cost for defending himself. Why not criminalize, "trespassers will be shot" signs on private property?

 

[Texas]

You can't really be ignoring the particular states listed, can you? Look at the southern states in your link.

I stated earlier that it was both time and place specific.

 

[slingblade]

Well assuming you are, if you see a "noose" hanging on your neighbor's porch and feel "threatened" is it your contention that you should be able to call the cops and have him arrested and dragged into court to determine if he meant any harm to you?

If you want to know what my contention is, it's better to ask me, rather than make one up and ask me if it's mine. Chances are, you're wrong. And, you are.

Assume I am black.

From that assumption, we have to know a lot of things. Where do I live: in what town, and what neighborhood in that town? What's my experience with prejudice: a lot, a little, something in between? Do I know my neighbors? Do I know Jimmy next door is a good guy and a hunter; are we friends? Have I even met him? How does he self-identify; is he white, black, Asian, etc.?

Has the neighboor with the noose on his porch ever made me feel uncomfortable, not welcome, outright scared? Is it Hallowe'en, or hunting season, or is there any other logical reason why a noose might be just a slip-knotted loop of rope and not an instrument often used in the past to kill people who looked like me?

All that, and more has to be known first. It isn't the mere sight of a noose that's the problem, but as has been stated by others, the context of it.

I can tell you this for certain: I'm black, I wake up, and I find that noose on my porch, I am damn sure gonna be intimidated, right off. I'm going to try to calm myself down, but I'm calling the cops, and I'm locking the doors, getting away from the windows.

And even though I'm white, if I wake up and find a noose hanging in front of my door, I'm going to get a really hinky feeling, and still might call the cops. It might be a prank, it might be a threat, but I might wake up and find someone next to my bed, his hand over my mouth and something sharp and shiny in his other hand. If I see it on the neighbor's porch, I might feel safe enough to go over and ask him about it; that depends on things like the questions above.

Now, in any case, I can't really or always "have him dragged into court." I can call the cops, but whether to arrest him is their call in most cases. I was once assaulted--a man I was arguing with slammed my car door on me as I was getting out. Hurt like hell. I called the cops, they talked to him, and said it was his word against mine and there was nothing they could do. They left.

I was hurt! A crime had been committed. And nothing happened. That's the way it goes, sometimes. Justice ain't just.

So, my contention is that a rope tied up like a hangman's noose can, in the right circumstances and context, be seen as a reasonable sort of threat.

If a law or laws already exist that would cover this contingency adequately, then this law may be unncessary. I'd need to see that, however, before deciding.

Making up my contention and asking if it's mine is a kid of strawman argument. I have to argue against a postion you formed, and tried to ascribe as mine. That is also poor argumentation.

 

[Texas]

If you want to know what my contention is, it's better to ask me, rather than make one up and ask me if it's mine. Chances are, you're wrong. And, you are.

Assume I am black.

From that assumption, we have to know a lot of things. Where do I live: in what town, and what neighborhood in that town? What's my experience with prejudice: a lot, a little, something in between? Do I know my neighbors? Do I know Jimmy next door is a good guy and a hunter; are we friends? Have I even met him? How does he self-identify; is he white, black, Asian, etc.?

Has the neighboor with the noose on his porch ever made me feel uncomfortable, not welcome, outright scared? Is it Hallowe'en, or hunting season, or is there any other logical reason why a noose might be just a slip-knotted loop of rope and not an instrument often used in the past to kill people who looked like me?

All that, and more has to be known first. It isn't the mere sight of a noose that's the problem, but as has been stated by others, the context of it.

I can tell you this for certain: I'm black, I wake up, and I find that noose on my porch, I am damn sure gonna be intimidated, right off. I'm going to try to calm myself down, but I'm calling the cops, and I'm locking the doors, getting away from the windows.

And even though I'm white, if I wake up and find a noose hanging in front of my door, I'm going to get a really hinky feeling, and still might call the cops. It might be a prank, it might be a threat, but I might wake up and find someone next to my bed, his hand over my mouth and something sharp and shiny in his other hand. If I see it on the neighbor's porch, I might feel safe enough to go over and ask him about it; that depends on things like the questions above.

Now, in any case, I can't really or always "have him dragged into court." I can call the cops, but whether to arrest him is their call in most cases. I was once assaulted--a man I was arguing with slammed my car door on me as I was getting out. Hurt like hell. I called the cops, they talked to him, and said it was his word against mine and there was nothing they could do. They left.

I was hurt! A crime had been committed. And nothing happened. That's the way it goes, sometimes. Justice ain't just.

So, my contention is that a rope tied up like a hangman's noose can, in the right circumstances and context, be seen as a reasonable sort of threat.

If a law or laws already exist that would cover this contingency adequately, then this law may be unncessary. I'd need to see that, however, before deciding.

Making up my contention and asking if it's mine is a kid of strawman argument. I have to argue against a postion you formed, and tried to ascribe as mine. That is also poor argumentation.

Well it is a strawman argument because no one, at least not me, is saying that if you wake up[ and find a noose on your porch it is not intimidation. Hell yes it is and you should call the cops. The issue is why is that the same thing as a "noose" on another person's own property. That is beyond reasonable and it is based on nothing more than an offended party's claim of intimidation. Get it yet?

 

[The Atheist]

Get it yet?

She won't, you're wrong.

 

[Texas]

She won't, you're wrong.

Ok.

 

[MINISTERofTRUTH]

"Hanging a Noose Can Get You Five Years"

Does that mean putting one noose inside another and killing the second noose.


Thus it is five years for the death of a noose?

 

[slingblade]

Well it is a strawman argument because no one, at least not me, is saying that if you wake up[ and find a noose on your porch it is not intimidation. Hell yes it is and you should call the cops.

What I said isn't a strawman, because I claimed it as solely my argument, my contention. You might read up on fallacies, sometime.

The issue is why is that the same thing as a "noose" on another person's own property.

And I answered you: it depends on context and circumstances.

That is beyond reasonable and it is based on nothing more than an offended party's claim of intimidation.

If there is a law, and someone is charged, a judge and perhaps a jury will decide if it's groundless or not, based on all the available evidence, not just one person's say-so. It's how we do things here.

Get it yet?

Oh, yes, I quite get your position. It's wrong.

 

[Texas]

If there is a law, and someone is charged, a judge and perhaps a jury will decide if it's groundless or not, based on all the available evidence, not just one person's say-so. It's how we do things here.




Oh, yes, I quite get your position. It's wrong.

Yes but it is one person's say-so that starts the process. That means that financially ruining a person's life and reputation based on a person's "feeling of intimidation". That is more dangerous than anything a "noose" could do. You accuse me of "poor argumentation" when it is you that are arguing for creating criminals for offending a certain demographic based on a piece of rope on his own property. That is wrong and your argument is childish.

 

[gumboot]

The analogy doesn't seem appropriate. People in America are still allowed to own nooses.

I didn't present it as an analogy. I just said this thread reminded me of that.

 

[gumboot]

Yes but it is one person's say-so that starts the process. That means that financially ruining a person's life and reputation based on a person's "feeling of intimidation". That is more dangerous than anything a "noose" could do. You accuse me of "poor argumentation" when it is you that are arguing for creating criminals for offending a certain demographic based on a piece of rope on his own property. That is wrong and your argument is childish.

I wonder what would happen if you made an argument that you felt intimidated into not displaying your fine noose because your neighbour was black and you were terrified they might take offense and have you locked up...

Frankly this is ridiculous. Since when was a noose exclusively associated with lynching black people? What's next? Imprisonment for displaying a pitchfork?

 

[BPSCG]

So I walk out onto my porch one fine morning and find some anonymous coward hung a noose there overnight. This puts me in fear of an "immediate prospect of execution of the threat?"

No. You're not black.

Care to tell me how many black people have been lynched in, oh, let's say the last ten years?

 

[BPSCG]

I don't think being beaten with a flaming cross is a likely way to die either. The noose, in the right context, is a loaded symbol. The actual form of the violence threatened is separate.

Are you proposing outlawing symbols now?

 

[Cavemonster]

Are you proposing outlawing symbols now?

We already have laws dealing with death threats. A noose in a certain context is a death threat. We already have laws dealing with context and intent. These are not violations of free speech, and the distinction of intent is not beyond the power of the law to consider.

This law is not exceptional in any philosophical sense. In much of the world, the connection between nooses and lynching of dark skinned people is not automatic. Having lived and travelled in the south fairly extensively, I'll tell you that people there are very aware of that symbolism.

Some friends were coming to meet me while I was on tour in Mississippi giving puppet workshops. I asked a teacher I was working with if there was a good local bar we could go to, she said

"Don't go to the one across the highway, that's a black bar, you don't want to mess with that in a place like this, we still had hanging trees until a few years ago"

 

[BPSCG]

A noose in a certain context is a death threat.

So is the stapler on the desk in front of me. But we don't have laws against displaying staplers. Why? Because it's not a reasonable threat; I doubt "trauma to skull from blunt object (stapler)" often appears as the cause of death on coroners' reports.

Same thing with a noose. I have asked here, several times, how often people get lynched any more. All I've gotten is the sound of crickets chirping, which tells me that nobody seems to be able to find any statistics on it. I won't say it doesn't happen. But I also won't say that being beaten to death with a stapler doesn't happen, either.

So please show me statistics for the number of lynchings in the U.S. in, say, the last ten years. Because if you can't, then you can't reasonably claim that a noose represents a plausible threat.

 

[Cavemonster]

So is the stapler on the desk in front of me. But we don't have laws against displaying staplers. Why? Because it's not a reasonable threat; I doubt "trauma to skull from blunt object (stapler)" often appears as the cause of death on coroners' reports.

Same thing with a noose. I have asked here, several times, how often people get lynched any more. All I've gotten is the sound of crickets chirping, which tells me that nobody seems to be able to find any statistics on it. I won't say it doesn't happen. But I also won't say that being beaten to death with a stapler doesn't happen, either.

So please show me statistics for the number of lynchings in the U.S. in, say, the last ten years. Because if you can't, then you can't reasonably claim that a noose represents a plausible threat.

Again, It's been stated above that flaming crosses aren't common murder weapons either. Pieces of paper with the words "I'm going to kill you" are also rarely murder weapons.

These things are taken seriously as threats. They do not need to be the literal proposed murder weapon to be so.

 

[BPSCG]

So please show me statistics for the number of lynchings in the U.S. in, say, the last ten years. Because if you can't, then you can't reasonably claim that a noose represents a plausible threat.

Again, It's been stated above that flaming crosses aren't common murder weapons either.

In other words, you have nothing.

And if flaming crosses aren't common murder weapons, why should they be outlawed?

Pieces of paper with the words "I'm going to kill you" are also rarely murder weapons.

No, but they are in fact a clearly expressed threat, and plausible as written.

Now, would you consider a piece of paper with the words, "I'm going to kill you with this three-week old banana" a plausible threat? Should it be acted upon? Should the government pass a law making it illegal to threaten someone with a soggy banana?

These things are taken seriously as threats.

So what? If I take your last post as being a threat (I don't, but let's just say), should the government look into it? Doesn't the plausibility of the threat enter into the discussion? Or is it simply the aggrieved person's perception of the threat that is all-important, and requires legislation?

Look, if people actually were being regularly lynched any more, I'd agree that hanging a noose on his property constituted a clear, plausible threat, and should be treated as seriously as, "I'm going to shoot you with this rifle next Saturday afternoon."

But they aren't. Lynching is an archaic relic of another time. I'm sure seeing one on your front porch is upsetting, because it reminds one that there are foul, stupid people out there who hate you simply for the color of your skin. But does anyone really think, on seeing such a thing, that, "Oh my God, I'm going to get dragged out of my house in the middle of the night by a mob of yahoos wearing white hoods and hanged"?

Really?