Elind
Philosopher
Sounds logical, but not all believe in logic, do they?
HAMAS wins big.
- Thread starter zenith-nadir
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Sounds logical, but not all believe in logic, do they?
They could take the whole thing and build a city like Salt Lake someplace and live in peace forever. Most countries would be so relieved that they would probably be allowed access almost anyplace and they would get all the help they needed to move. Also the prime reason it's reasonably nice there is because they are getting billions in support every year from the US. It's just a matter of time before somebody crazy gets a nuke. Be it Iran or Hamas or whoever.
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I didn't say that and that was your lousy example not mine.
You realise that one of the main reasons for Israel's existence is that (given their peoples history) many jews felt that the only place they could feel secure would be a state of their own? I'm not sure that being threatened with nukes will make them think "oh, maybe now's a good time to put our faith in the gentiles, and try living in their countries* again"?
* i.e. as a minority.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
As religious zealots, I don't think it's money they are after. Osama is a multi millionaire, for example, but willingly gave up that lifestyle. (I think he still has the money, though).
Arafat made the mistake of holding on to power forcibly, and not allowing free and fair democratice elections. Now that Abbas has allowed a fair election, (Or Fatah just can't hold the lid on anymore), Fatah is out.
A standard democratic transition between parties in the past would have allowed the Palestinians a real choice and alternatives in the past. (Well, as much as a democracy allows, anyway).
There is an old saying, oppositions aren't voted in, governments are voted out.
As for the peace process, Sharon's replacement, at first glance, does appear to be more interested in a peace process. If Israel is to make peace with Palestinians, the people who it most needs to make peace with is Hamas.
Yeah, well they were wrong about that security thing. I am not saying they should dispurse or even give up their country. The US might be persuaded to give them an area someplace, but certainly other countries would. The days pre-ww2 of countries turning away Jews are over. Most countries would be so overjoyed by the prospect of real peace they would be happy to help.
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Can you name some of these countries?
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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If you want to consider relocating the entire population of a nation as a viable option (and I don't, but let's pretend) then it's obvious that relocating the Palestinians would be easier and less expensive. There are fewer of them with less investment in infrastructure to replace.
Just saying.
But you'd have to relocate Iran, Syria, ... too.
I wonder if Hamas is not a bit shocked and disappointed themselves at winning. If they had just had a high vote but not won, they could continue as before with lots of support and money and a bigger international stage to stay fresh in the media. But this actual winning is going to cause all sorts of headaches. Now they have to act as a government and do more for their people than just supply explosives. They now have to take responsibility for their actions instead of demonizing the ruling party. Now they have to take care of all Palastinians and not just the violent fringe. Are they prepared for this? Did they even expect this? I am guessing not. They certainly knew what they were doing as a terror organization (which sucks for the world), but as a legit government, I think they know they are clueless. It's kind of like the Mouse That Roared. They got the power and now they are not sure it is what they wanted.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Perhaps they will come to realise what Sharon did, that just bullying your way through is not a solution.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Sharon did what you wanted him to do: a unilateral withdrawal with no conditions attached. You should give him credit for that.
Yeah, we are talking moving an entire nation but we are only talking 3.5 to 4 million people. Not a minor task but not as daunting as you might think. The Muslims would be appeased by the Israelis leaving, nobody would be appeased by the Palestinians leaving. The Israelis could remove or exterminate all the Palestinians and that would not solve their problem. It would probably just make it worse. The Palestinians while they get all the attention are only a small part of their problem. Their problem is they are sitting on land that a billion+ people are willing to kill them to remove them from, and or willing to die to remove them from. These people WILL get their way eventually. One way or another.
No, because relocation has never been entertained as a viable option so there is no way to know exactly what the response would be. My gut feeling is the US wouldn't be willing to allow a sovereign Jewish state within their borders, but they might.
I have no idea what their response would be but I would think that there are many countries that was happily take the influx of capital and the trained and educated workforce.
Notwithstanding the nasty parts of the bible, most people realize this is going to be a continuing barrier to peace in the world and most realize it's going to blow up eventually.
There is that boom town in Alberta where they are mining the oil sand. Supposedly they can't increase their production right now because they don't have the work force. I have even entertained the idea of going to check it out myself.
Elind
Philosopher