Hamas crimes against humanity

[Thunder]

I don't share you blind faith in the incorruptibility of the Israeli government, and I fail to see what is wrong with a little bit of transparency. We're talking about human beings' lives here.

.

Judeo-fascists and Israeli right-wingers do not view Arabs as human beings. They are 1/3rd of a Jew.

This is why the IDF has continuously lent a blind eye to Jewish violence in Hebron, and has such lenient rules of engagement in Gaza.

 

[Marc39]

For an example of a human-rights organization criticizing Hamas' extrajudicial killings, see B'Tselem's Extra-judicial execution of alleged collaborators by Hamas. For an example of HRW specifically criticizing Hamas and Fatah, see Occupied Palestinian Territories: New Arrests Highlight Abuses by Hamas, Fatah.

I don't share you blind faith in the incorruptibility of the Israeli government, and I fail to see what is wrong with a little bit of transparency. We're talking about human beings' lives here.

A prominent, respected human-rights group carries a lot more weight than the proclamations of a secretive government.

While based in Israel, B'Tselem nevertheless has compromised credibiity due to being a hard-left group with an anti-Israel bias. The bogus item about "Jew-Only" roads in the West Bank they reported, picked up by The Prevaricator, is but one example. And, I don't have blind faith in the IDF, however, Israel is a nation of laws and the IDF, like anyone else, is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The stark reality is Israel is at war with terrorists on a daily basis. What America has endured on "9/11" Israel endures on a far more frequent basis. I suspect strongly that if some fringe group were firing rockets into your city and if suicide bombers were blowing up your neightobrhood's buses and schools and restaurants, you'd be insisting that draconian measures be taken to prevent such things from happening and you'd be much less worried about following the letter of the law. So would any other nation. Israel deserves no less security.

 

[Marc39]

A prominent, respected human-rights group carries a lot more weight than the proclamations of a secretive government.

Respected by you and others with a predisposition to find fault with Israel, not respected by those who know their records of bias toward Israel and inaccurate reporting. If the IDF were to drop feathers on Gaza, they would be condemned for war crimes by these groups. B'Tselem and the other NGOs are largely funded by leftwing sources and they know its in their own best interests to bash Israel because that's where the money is.

 

[Thunder]

If the IDF were to drop feathers on Gaza, they would be condemned for war crimes by these groups. .

If one disagrees with this statement, does it make him an anti-Semite?

 

[gdnp]

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/03/23/hamas-end-military-group-attacks-against-civilians

HRW does indeed attack Hamas for their murder of innocent Israeli civilians.

Israel's "targeted assassinations" are just murder of accused terrorists. Nothing more. They are just murder by another name.

I disagree. Targeted assassination of known terrorists is a legitimate tactic under guidelines like those that the Israelis have set up.

If NATO were to discover the whereabouts of OBL with a high degree of confidence, had a drone in place that could fire a missile within the next 10 minutes, and made the calculation that a commando raid would take hours to organize, would be more likely to fail, and would have a much higher risk to allied troops, then they would be justified in assassinating OBL with a missile, even if he were in a civilian area and civilian casualties were likely.

I think Israel has the same right if they follow appropriate guidelines, which it seems they are at least paying lip service to doing. Does the Israeli system provide the transparency that I would like? No. Is there a significant potential for abuse? Yes. Have abuses taken place in the past? Probably. Does this mean that known terrorists should be able to walk around freely in civilian areas? Not in my mind.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Wow, I step away from JREF for awhile and my thread gains new life. The point of this thread is that the Palestinians deserve, just as all human beings deserve, legal protection and these are clearly extra judicial murders.

Deserve? There's an abstract position to take. So let me get this straight: you want some international police force to come in and act in Alabama when ten people get murdered? Is that what you are looking for?

I'm sure some of these people were guilty and some were not, but unfortunately, without the benefit of a court of law, we will never know.

I don't find "a war" and "a court of law" to be equally exchangeable set ups, and am curious as to why you feel they are. Or maybe you don't, based on something you say later in the post. Message unclear.

The anti Israel crowd, isn't so much concerned about the welfare of Palestinians, as they are with their critique of Israel.

I suspect that varies with who in that crowd is shouting at the time.

Palestinians killed by Israelis are a huge concern to them but who cares about those killed by Hamas?

Since I don't care about either, I'll not answer that.

And yes, Palestinians have been killed by Israelis without benefit of a judicial trial IN THE CONTEXT OF WAR, comparing those killed with the Hamas killings is really comparing apples to oranges.

OK, so Israel and the Pals are at war. Got it.

The equivalent would be Israel killing Israeli citizens suspected of sympathizing with Hamas of which I've seen no evidence and would condemn equally.

I'll work on that thought. If an American is put to death for treason, which has happened in this country, are you and I then supposed to go to some extranational body and somehow trump American law? I can't support that.

I certainly wouldn't accuse a Palestinian of "extra judicial killings" for shooting and killing IDF soldiers in the Gaza strip nor would I criticize them for doing so in the context of war which would certainly be the case when IDF soldiers are in their territory.

And a Pal setting off a bomb in Tel Aviv is, I think under your framework, an extra judicial killing.

Seems like a lot of extra words and letters for the term "murder" from here.

DR

 

[Thunder]

And a Pal setting off a bomb in Tel Aviv is, I think under your framework, an extra judicial killing.

lolol

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

While based in Israel, B'Tselem nevertheless has compromised credibiity due to being a hard-left group with an anti-Israel bias. The bogus item about "Jew-Only" roads in the West Bank they reported, picked up by The Prevaricator, is but one example. And, I don't have blind faith in the IDF, however, Israel is a nation of laws and the IDF, like anyone else, is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The stark reality is Israel is at war with terrorists on a daily basis. What America has endured on "9/11" Israel endures on a far more frequent basis. I suspect strongly that if some fringe group were firing rockets into your city and if suicide bombers were blowing up your neightobrhood's buses and schools and restaurants, you'd be insisting that draconian measures be taken to prevent such things from happening and you'd be much less worried about following the letter of the law. So would any other nation. Israel deserves no less security.

Every time I cite a legitimate source of information, you accuse it of bias, brush it aside, and then expect me to believe whatever you decide to say off the top of your head. Does that make sense? As for what you decided to say off the top of your head this time, I think it makes no sense that you would want to give the presumption of innocence to Israel for killing people but wouldn't want to give the same to those actually being killed, especially when much less drastic measures possibly could have been taken according to the evidence I have seen so far. Using that logic, maybe we should trust Hamas' judgment in killing people too. Furthermore, it puts no one's security at risk to have greater transparency.

Here's what B'tselem says on the roads:

This system of restrictions enables Israel to designate some of the roads in the West Bank for primary or exclusive use by Israelis, mainly settlers living in the West Bank. Israel prohibits Palestinian vehicles from even crossing certain roads. As a result of this prohibition, Palestinian traffic is restricted to those roads that remain open to use. Upon reaching a prohibited road, Palestinian drivers and passengers have to leave their vehicles by the side of the road, cross it by foot, and then find alternate transportation on the other side. Palestinians are forbidden to use, or are restricted in their use of, more than 300 kilometers of roads in the West Bank; Israelis are free to use these roads with no restriction whatsoever.

They refer to the roads as being "Israeli," not "Jew only."

 

[Thunder]

Every time I cite a legitimate source of information, you accuse it of bias, brush it aside, and then expect me to believe whatever you decide to say off the top of your head.

Such is the dishonest strategy of Judeo-fascists.

Lie, deny, derail, and when all else fails....call your opponent an "anti-Semite".

 

[Darth Rotor]

Such is the dishonest strategy of Judeo-fascists.

Lie, deny, derail, and when all else fails....call your opponent an "anti-Semite".

Sorry, parky, you lost me there.

Where did he call you an anti-Semite in the post to which you responded?

DR

 

[Marc39]

Every time I cite a legitimate source of information, you accuse it of bias, brush it aside, and then expect me to believe whatever you decide to say off the top of your head.

Nothing I write of a serious nature is off the top of my head and perhaps your frustration is based on the fact that I'm discrediting a source of information that you've relied on for Israel-bashing propaganda, but, that's not my problem. In the interest of intellectual honesty, I already have advised you not to rely on the NGOs. There is ample evidence in the public record documenting their consistent anti-Israel bias, some of which I've mentioned, but, you might simply wish to close your eyes to it. You probably also rely on the BBC and Al Jazeera for information.

Please cite murder convictions of "Israel" since you just libeled an entire nation.


I'm well aware of what B'Tselem wrote about Rte 443 in the West Bank, since I first wrote about it in an earlier post. The Prevaricator claims he obtained information from B'Tselem about Jew-Only roads, however, it appears no such thing existed, although, admittedly,I have not scoured their website. The Prevaricator has some serious "splainin'" to do.

 

[Thunder]

Sorry, parky, you lost me there.

Where did he call you an anti-Semite in the post to which you responded?

DR

I am not referring to anyone specifically. Just Judeo-fascists and right-wing Zionists in general.

 

[Thunder]

There is ample evidence in the public record documenting their consistent anti-Israel bias,

I think the human rights organizations were also on South Africa's case a lot too.

But I guess that's because they hate white people.

 

[Marc39]

Every time I cite a legitimate source of information, you accuse it of bias, brush it aside, and then expect me to believe whatever you decide to say off the top of your head. Does that make sense? As for what you decided to say off the top of your head this time, I think it makes no sense that you would want to give the presumption of innocence to Israel for killing people but wouldn't want to give the same to those actually being killed, especially when much less drastic measures possibly could have been taken according to the evidence I have seen so far. Using that logic, maybe we should trust Hamas' judgment in killing people too. Furthermore, it puts no one's security at risk to have greater transparency.

Here's what B'tselem says on the roads:

They refer to the roads as being "Israeli," not "Jew only."

In the event you missed myother post about roads in the West Bank, including the infamous Rte 443, I've included the link below. Be sure to read the words from the Liberal Boston Globe about Israel's intent behind Rte 433.It's quite a contrast to B'Tselem's information.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4538212&postcount=92

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

In the event you missed myother post about roads in the West Bank, including the infamous Rte 443, I've included the link below. Be sure to read the words from the Liberal Boston Globe about Israel's intent behind Rte 433.It's quite a contrast to B'Tselem's information.

I frankly don't see how there is a contrast. Does it say the roads aren't segregated now and that Palestinians aren't being limited in their movement in any manner?

 

[Marc39]

I frankly don't see how there is a contrast. Does it say the roads aren't segregated now and that Palestinians aren't being limited in their movement in any manner?

The roads are open to people of all ethnicities, races,religions, whatever, except terrorists.

 

[Thunder]

The roads are open to people of all ethnicities, races,religions, whatever, except terrorists.

The roads are closed to ALL Palestinians. I guess this makes all Palestinians "terrorists".

That's like calling all Jews "bankers" or "lawyers".

 

[BabyHeadedMan]

Nothing I write of a serious nature is off the top of my head and perhaps your frustration is based on the fact that I'm discrediting a source of information that you've relied on for Israel-bashing propaganda, but, that's not my problem. In the interest of intellectual honesty, I already have advised you not to rely on the NGOs. There is ample evidence in the public record documenting their consistent anti-Israel bias, some of which I've mentioned, but, you might simply wish to close your eyes to it. You probably also rely on the BBC and Al Jazeera for information.

Simply claiming you've discredited an organization doesn't mean you've done so.

Please cite murder convictions of "Israel" since you just libeled an entire nation.

What I have said thus far in our argument is that Israel has not been transparent in their targeted-assassination operations, which is true, and that in the case of Thabet Thabet, the possibility that Israel had opportunities to arrest him suggests that his assassination may have been illegal, even aside from the amount of evidence, or lack thereof, they had on him, which is also true. I don't understand how a charge of libel can be made against any of my remarks.

 

[Marc39]

Simply claiming you've discredited an organization doesn't mean you've done so.

What I have said thus far in our argument is that Israel has not been transparent in their targeted-assassination operations, which is true, and that in the case of Thabet Thabet, the possibility that Israel had opportunities to arrest him suggests that his assassination may have been illegal, even aside from the amount of evidence, or lack thereof, they had on him, which is also true. I don't understand how a charge of libel can be made against any of my remarks.

With all due respect, tough shiite. Israel is engaged in war with savages and targeted assassinations are an effective part of their security and military tactics. Bunker Busters are a needlessly messy alternative. Unless legally forced to do so, the IDF has no obligation to make public any aspect of these tactics. Those like yourself are motivated more by trying to tie Israel's hands in protecting its national security than in civil rights. Terrorists have no civil rights. As regards Dr. Thabet, sorry, given his senior role in Fatah and his fund-raising activities for organizations who are threats to Israel, I don't stay up at night worrying about the assassination of Dr. Thabet.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

With all due respect, tough shiite. Israel is engaged in war with savages and targeted assassinations are an effective part of their security and military tactics. Bunker Busters are a needlessly messy alternative. Unless legally forced to do so, the IDF has no obligation to make public any aspect of these tactics. Those like yourself are motivated more by trying to tie Israel's hands in protecting its national security than in civil rights. Terrorists have no civil rights. As regards Dr. Thabet, sorry, given his senior role in Fatah and his fund-raising activities for organizations who are threats to Israel, I don't stay up at night worrying about the assassination of Dr. Thabet.

Another exposing of his vile racist superiority complex.. Are you going to show us diagrams of how Israeli brains are bigger than Palestinian brains next Marc39 ??