Hail to the Chief!

[Tmy]

How could you not go wh Bubba Clinton. 8yrs of fun fun fun, nice economy, budget was OK, world had never been so peaceful!!! Plus he gave the press and pundits plenty of fodder. A good time was had by all.

 

[Tony]

You ye simpleton.

I never said I approved of evrything Teddy did.

I never said you said you approved of everything TR did.

See, there is this little thing called dualism that plagues America, everything is seen in black and white, and you are one of the ones who see it that way.

 

[corplinx]

You should thank FDR that you are not speaking German right now, that is assuming that you or I would have been born at all in a world that used breading programs.

Piss off. Any other president would have joined the war after pearl harbor. I give him no credit for doing the inevitable.

 

[corplinx]

Not to mention, FDR created that awesome social security program. FDR has to be the most overrated president ever. He got a lot done on his watch, but he left us with the seed of out of control federalism.

 

[aggle_rithm]

Much of the "genocide" was not genocide at all. It was a case of starvation.

Why did the starvation happen?

Well, Russia had just been invaded durign WWI, then went though a revolution, then civil war and was invaded by 22 countries, tehn Russia gave up its best farmland in a peace treaty, then the beginning of Stalinism, then was invaded again in WWII.

All of Russia's best remaning farmland in in the west where is kept getting beat the hell up during all these invasions. Then, after WWII a drought hit Russia, making it even worse.

No one in the world wanted to help Russia or Stalin of course so Stalin ha no one to turn to, his only alternative was to give up control of Russia and hand it over to foreign authority, yeah right, like that would happen. America was not going to give large amounts of food and assistance to Russia he knew we wanted to invade Russia, so why would he call on us for help.

The result was millions people dying of starvation. Its not the fist time in history that things like that have happened, Irish potato famine, Africa, etc.

So Stalin's policy of collectivization and industrialization had nothing to do with it?

 

[Malachi151]

Piss off. Any other president would have joined the war after pearl harbor. I give him no credit for doing the inevitable.

LOL, see, this is what is wrong with US history today

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/fdr_provoked_the_japanese_attack.htm

The McCollum Memo can be viewed here (I strongly advise that you read the entire memo):

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/

Of critical importance in this memo is the portion that reads:

“9. It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado; and it is barely possible that vigorous action on our part might lead the Japanese to modify their attitude. Therefore, the following course of action is suggested:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.

B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies.

C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek.

D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.

E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.

F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.

G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.

H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire.

10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better. At all events we must be fully prepared to accept the threat of war.

H. McCollum”

What is important to note about this is that FDR began the implementation of all the steps the very next day after receiving this memo.

 

[rikzilla]

Hey!!!

This poll is rigged!!

Where's the check box for the greatest president of all??

Millard Fillmore!!!!


What? Are ya afraid that he'd run away with it all???

-z

 

[Malachi151]

So Stalin's policy of collectivization and industrialization had nothing to do with it?

Yeah, it did, but so did the other conditions too. The point is that Truman and FDR are not to blame for the deaths of the Russians, as corplinx was suggesting. The labor conditions under Stalin were horrible no doubt, but its not the same type situation as Hitler's deal. Stlain was a horribel tyrant, but he wasn't trying to kill these people it was a side effect of his policy and natural famine condition. Stalin did have plenty of peopel intionally killed too, but not what would be called genocide. This is no defense of Stalin I'm just saying he was not committing genocide.

 

[Gregor]

Wow, I knew Malachi was a communist apologist, but to deny the attrocities of Stalin - whew.

Try reading Harvest of Sorrow or Stalin: Killer of Nations. Both were written by Robert Conquest.

 

[corplinx]

Wow, I knew Malachi was a communist apologist, but to deny the attrocities of Stalin - whew.

Try reading Harvest of Sorrow or Stalin: Killer of Nations. Both were written by Robert Conquest.

In shorter format but with all the numbers, National Review has an issue called "The Holocaust We Forgot". The source may be devoutly anti-communist but the numbers are all there. Great piece.

 

[Malachi151]

Wow, I knew Malachi was a communist apologist, but to deny the attrocities of Stalin - whew.

Try reading Harvest of Sorrow or Stalin: Killer of Nations. Both were written by Robert Conquest.

Perhaps you don't know what genocide is, or perhaps Stalin did something that I'm unaware of, but genocide is the intentional extermination of a given race or ethnic group. To my knolwedge Stalin did not target any ethnic group for exterminiation in Russia. Keeping facts straight is hardly being an apologist.

 

[Globert]

Greatest President post Lincoln

I voted TR, though Regan had me thinking.

I read somewhere the effect of:
Great men are simply Ordinary men thrust into Extraordinary situations.

(Probably used by every biographer of great men
)

 

[Tmy]

Is it fair to vote for a president that served before your lifetime. History is often viewed through rose colored glasses. You miss the annoying little things that presidents do.

 

[Gregor]

I do, and you don't know your Stalin.

Ukrainians were a separate cultural group - and they certainly consider themselves a separate ethnic group. I'm not an anthropologist and can't say whether that's correct. Stalin intentionally starved them to death.

 

[renata]

Perhaps you don't know what genocide is, or perhaps Stalin did something that I'm unaware of, but genocide is the intentional extermination of a given race or ethnic group. To my knolwedge Stalin did not target any ethnic group for exterminiation in Russia. Keeping facts straight is hardly being an apologist.

I recommend Archipelag Gulag by Solzhenitsyn

I would also like to point out that Stalin did root out and transport ethnicities and subgroups to various places in Siberia. Although he did not have designated deathcamps in the Treblinka mold, he did have concentrations camps for which survival rate was negligible, rendering them effective death camps. Chechens, Volga Germans, religious Russians and Ukrainians- whole villages were resettled. There is also some evidence that before his death he had planned to exile Russian Jews to Birobijian, the infamous Doctor trials appeared to be precursors to wide resettlement.

According to The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, genocide is defined as


gen·o·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


Certainly, entire political groups were exterminated. Kulaks for example were summarily executed and their entire families sent into exile.

 

[Malachi151]

I do, and you don't know your Stalin.

Ukrainians were a separate cultural group - and they certainly consider themselves a separate ethnic group. I'm not an anthropologist and can't say whether that's correct. Stalin intentionally starved them to death.

Most of the people Stalin killed were actually Marxists and Bolsheviks. Stalin was anti-Communist, its a confusing matter.

The Bolsheviks took power in order to start Socialism in Russia, Stalin took power from them, and then had them all killed, then Stalin set about being a tyrant and was relaly dothing not that correspoended with Marxism at all or had anything to do with promoting Communism. Stalin was just a tyrant dictator using Communism as an excuse. Thats why he killed all the Bolsheviks and killed so many Jews. The Bolshevik Jews were THE Marxist communists.

Yes, the as for the matter of the Ukraine, that was a horrible incident and millions died and Stalin was to blame. The problem with it today is trying to figure out fact from fiction, the whole thing is a confused mess.

At the time Communsits in Russia opposed Stalin. Non-Communsits in Russia opposed Stalin. Non-Communsits opposed the Bolsheviks for their role in "bringing Stalin to power", which they actually didn't do intentionally, he took control from them against their will.

Then you had the communits from the West, like America often sided with Stalin because they didn't know what was really going on.

Then you have teh anti-Communists in the West, who sided with Stalin because they knew we has killing the Bolshekivs, this was like Hitler and Churchill and such.

Then you had anti-Communsits in the West who were sayinh that Stalin was who represented Communism, and then you anti-Communsits who did know what was going on saying that Stalin was anti-Communist.

Today we now have access to all the information and the writings of the Bolshevisk and we see that indeed, Stalin was anti-Communist while claiming to be communist. His biggest enemies were the Bolsheviks and Marxists.

Its a confusing mess to say the least. Even today most anti-Communsits still say that Stalin was a communist, while most Communsits say that Stalin was anti-Communist.

Stalin screwed over the Comitern, made treaties with Hitler, killed milions of Bolsheviks, killed all the Marxists in Russia, and killed millions in the Ukraine as you say. He was all around horrible for everyone.

My issue was in blaming Truman or FDR for "capitualing" to these things. I don't blame Truman or FDR for their attitude toward Stalin, it was a very complex matter at the time and it still is.

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Is it just me, or has every president been a WASP male with the exception of FDR and Truman?

 

[Malachi151]

Is it just me, or has every president been a WASP male with the exception of FDR and Truman?

FDR and Ruman were not? FDR was an Episcipalian(ap?) I think, and he was white and a male

Don't forget JFK.

 

[crocodile deathroll]

Thumbs up to Bill Clinton

Yes I voted Bill Clinton but in spite of his version of the White House being far naughtier the its namesake here (I am not making any direct link into any of its sexier pages), he was still a far safer president to have for the world then the current one.

 

[Tricky]

Re: Thumbs up to Bill Clinton

Yes I voted Bill Clinton but in spite of his version of the White House being far naughtier the its namesake here (I am not making any direct link into any of its sexier pages), he was still a far safer president to have for the world then the current one.

CDR! Where the hell have you been! I was afraid we had lost another good-un.