Hail to the Chief!

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
"...President Bush, the greatest president this country has seen since Abraham Lincoln."

This is a statement I've seen Mr. Knight make more than once, and it's got me to thinking.

It's certainly a little early to compare George W. Bush to others who've held the office, never mind being able to assess his place in history. However, why not have a little fun?

The poll only allows for ten choices, so I've had to make some editing decisions; a bit of a daunting task. Nevertheless, it's quite a list, wouldn't you say?

Discuss.

 

[subgenius]

But you left off Dubya, so the benighted one can claim millions of supporters would have voted for him.

 

[renata]

Define greatness. Nixon, for all his faults achieved quite a bit- China, pulling out of Vietnam, etc. JFK, for all his idealism did not achieve too much in office, but did inspire millions with his agenda.

 

[Malachi151]

LOL, all liberals and progressives so far hehe Yes, Teddy was a progressive.

 

[Malachi151]

Define greatness. Nixon, for all his faults achieved quite a bit- China, pulling out of Vietnam, etc. JFK, for all his idealism did not achieve too much in office, but did inspire millions with his agenda.

LOL, listing "pulling out of Vietnam" as an accomplishment of Nixon's is like.... well, I dunno what its like, but the fact is that Nixon said that he didn't want to pull out of Vietnam because he didn't want to be the first president to lose a war. Vietnam was self destructive, it was ony a mtter of time before whoever it was HAD to pull out. Nixon really had little choice in the matter and didn't want to do it. I have to give Nxon credit with China though.

Well, Kennedy cut taxes dramatically, prevented nuclear war, which the US military was calling for, prevented the US military from engaging in a domestic terrorism campaign in order to instigate war with Cuba, he reigned in the CIA a bit, allocated lots of funds to the space race...

He did quite a bit, but he was still an anti-socialist bastard just like the rest Dont' forget Vietnam.

 

[corplinx]

The president who capitulated to Stalin resulting in genocide beyond Hitler is leading the pack? This is fricken sad.....

America still owes eastern europe a debt because of FDR.

 

[Malachi151]

The president who capitulated to Stalin resulting in genocide beyond Hitler is leading the pack? This is fricken sad.....

America still owes eastern europe a debt because of FDR.

You should thank FDR that you are not speaking German right now, that is assuming that you or I would have been born at all in a world that used breading programs.

 

[Tony]

Yes, Teddy was a progressive.

Yes, but the "progressives" today have merely co-opted that label for their own purposes, just like they co-opted the word "liberal" a few years ago. They are nothing like TR. TR was an imperialist and a warmonger.

 

[subgenius]

Yes, but the "progressives" today have merely co-opted that label for their own purposes, just like they co-opted the word "liberal" a few years ago. They are nothing like TR. TR was an imperialist and a warmonger.

...and a progressive for his time. Myopia can be cured.
"My future is in the past."

 

[Tony]

...and a progressive for his time. Myopia can be cured.

How was TR myopic?

But I agree, myopia can be cured, however, todays "progressives" are the epitome of myopic.

 

[subgenius]

I agree, but todays "progressives" are the epitome of myopic.

Through those lenses.
Conservatives are in power....name some "progressives" that have any. So why do you care?
Do you know any personally?
Don't bull**** me, or yourself.
We were talking about TR, anyway not "today's progressives".
Why did you feel the need to change the subject?
Defensiveness is weakness.

 

[Tony]

Do you know any personally?

I myself am one.

We were talking about TR, anyway not "today's progressives".
Why did you feel the need to change the subject?

Malachi brought up progressives. If you have a beef with the subject being changed, I suggest you take it up with him/her.

 

[subgenius]

I myself am one.

We were talking about TR, anyway not "today's progressives".
Why did you feel the need to change the subject?

Malachi brought up progressives. If you have a beef with the subject being changed, I suggest you take it up with him/her.

I'm not getting this: you are a "progressive", and this is "today" so you are.....not myopic?

 

[Ed]

Yes, but the "progressives" today have merely co-opted that label for their own purposes, just like they co-opted the word "liberal" a few years ago. They are nothing like TR. TR was an imperialist and a warmonger.

What wars did he monger?

 

[Tony]

What wars did he monger?

The Spanish American War, He instigated and facilitated the Panamanian War of Independence without GASP!!…the permission of congress, and he fiercely advocated early entry into WW1 when Wilson was pursuing a policy of neutrality. He also advocated American expansionism and imperialism. IMO most of these were good things.

 

[subgenius]

I'm not getting this: you are a "progressive", and this is "today" so you are.....not myopic?

 

[Gregor]

The only people allowed to vote for FDR are those older than 65. Otherwise, we're just getting the 8th grade history-filtered version.

In fact, that applies to all presidents before Nixon.

 

[aggle_rithm]

The president who capitulated to Stalin resulting in genocide beyond Hitler is leading the pack? This is fricken sad.....

America still owes eastern europe a debt because of FDR.

I think it was Truman, not FDR, who capitulated to Stalin (if, by capitulation, you mean that he stood by while Stalin occupied eastern Europe). After all, WE occupied western Europe for a short time. It took some time before it was realized that Stalin had no intention of ever pulling out.

Much of the genocide had already occurred by this point, so was not a result of this.

 

[Malachi151]

Yes, but the "progressives" today have merely co-opted that label for their own purposes, just like they co-opted the word "liberal" a few years ago. They are nothing like TR. TR was an imperialist and a warmonger.

You ye simpleton.

I never said I approved of evrything Teddy did.

See, there is this little thing called dualism that plagues America, everything is seen in black and white, and you are one of the ones who see it that way.

Who was Teddy?

Teddy was an intelligent, liberal man that viewed American interests a priority ovver the interests of other countries.

He, like many other people was multifacited and fits into no group that exists today.

War monger? Yes. Imperialist? Yes.
Friend of the working man? Yes.
Conservationist? Yes.
Secularist? Yes.
Supporter of redistribution of wealth? Yes.
Supporter of the arts? Yes.

See, Teddy was out for whever would make America as a country more successful and better for all American citizens. He took on big business, and he invaded foreign countries too and took territory for America.

I am totally at odds with his approach to foreign countries, and totally in harmony wiht him on domestic issues. It does not change the fact that he was a progressive and that he and Wislon took steps in Liberalizing America. Wilson also engaged in imperialism, though not as much.

BTW Wilson should have been on the poll, I consider him the second best after FDR, as many other historians do as well. Wilson was one of the most intelligent presidents this country ever had, and was a nobel prize winner in econmics, and of course he got us into WWI, and he invaded Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution, and was president during the Red Scare. I disagree with the invasion of Russia and and the acts of the Red Scare, but I still think Wilson was a good president, and most people probably see thise things as a good thing anyway.

 

[Malachi151]

I think it was Truman, not FDR, who capitulated to Stalin (if, by capitulation, you mean that he stood by while Stalin occupied eastern Europe). After all, WE occupied western Europe for a short time. It took some time before it was realized that Stalin had no intention of ever pulling out.

Much of the genocide had already occurred by this point, so was not a result of this.

Much of the "genocide" was not genocide at all. It was a case of starvation.

Why did the starvation happen?

Well, Russia had just been invaded durign WWI, then went though a revolution, then civil war and was invaded by 22 countries, tehn Russia gave up its best farmland in a peace treaty, then the beginning of Stalinism, then was invaded again in WWII.

All of Russia's best remaning farmland in in the west where is kept getting beat the hell up during all these invasions. Then, after WWII a drought hit Russia, making it even worse.

No one in the world wanted to help Russia or Stalin of course so Stalin ha no one to turn to, his only alternative was to give up control of Russia and hand it over to foreign authority, yeah right, like that would happen. America was not going to give large amounts of food and assistance to Russia he knew we wanted to invade Russia, so why would he call on us for help.

The result was millions people dying of starvation. Its not the fist time in history that things like that have happened, Irish potato famine, Africa, etc.

Stlain was definatly not one of the "good guys", but the calls of genocide that happened after WWII are overplayed.

In addition, at that time no one was sure what was going on in Russia.

And as for not knowing about FDR, I'd have to disagree. You can easily learn about FDR if you wish to study him. Corruption, complaints about his system doing more harm than good? Sure, you bet, I've read all that stuff too. Lots of people hated FDR, but a lot more loved him, and he did a lot of good, and as I said, if not for FDR the Republicans would have let Hitler take Europe and Japan take the Pacific. We would be living in fascist hell right now if not for FDR, Russia, and the American liberals such as the Abe Lincoln Birgade, the American Communist Party, and the Anti-Fascist League. It was all the liberlas that were wanting to get into WWII, many o fhte conservatives were either siding with the fascists or were isolationists.