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Gun owner kills intruder, faces prison

How did police or the media know the thieves were only after "drinks and snacks"? Or is that all they had time to nearly get away with? How did the man defending his home know that they weren't prepared to kill him or his family? How do you know the robber wasn't running back to take a better position, or to find a weapon? How do you know the homeowner could see clearly what was going on with three intruders in his house? I guess he should be charged for first degree murder. After all, we all know that teenagers are harmless and incapable of murder.

Really, I suggest you try understanding the legal principles here. The measure is that of actual and perceived threat to the homeowner; essentially you have to be able to reasonably show that you were in danger and that the level of force you used was proportionate.

In other words, you're not allowed to shoot 'em in the back as they run off, or as they kneel on the floor, and if they're unarmed then why the need to shoot them at all?
 
Hi

Really, I suggest you try understanding the legal principles here. The measure is that of actual and perceived threat to the homeowner; essentially you have to be able to reasonably show that you were in danger and that the level of force you used was proportionate.

In other words, you're not allowed to shoot 'em in the back as they run off, or as they kneel on the floor, and if they're unarmed then why the need to shoot them at all?


It may work that way over yonder, but over here, with all this, "Innocent Until Proven Guilty," stuff running around, If I shoot someone, under any circumstances, I don't have to prove anything.

The prosecution has to prove that I broke the law to convict me: No proof of a broken law, no conviction.

In this case, the prosecution has to demonstrate, pretty much positively because it's a murder, that either the shooter was not in danger or that the level of force he used was not appropriate.

Texas as this, "Castle Doctrine," newly passed, and this trial may serve to delineate exactly how far it can be stretched before it snaps back and bites you.

So far, from what we've heard about this case, it looks to me like the shooter was involved in a felony assault (striking a person with a loaded firearm, which is felony assault in Indiana, and at least felony stupidity everywhere) when the death occurred, making it a felony homicide. That hinges, of course, on the C.S.I. stuff verifying or falsifying the co-housebreaker's story.
 
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Hi

It may work that way over yonder, but over here, with all this, "Innocent Until Proven Guilty," stuff running around, If I shoot someone, under any circumstances, I don't have to prove anything.

Firstly, you know as well as I do that every one of the western democracies has the "innocent until proven" concept at the heart of their legal systems. So stop trying the old "we're free" routine, which is blatantly not appropriate or relevant. :rolleyes:

Moving swiftly along, however, in Canada, Europe, and the Antipodes - and I mention these countries to make clear that the US isn't in a majority here - the position is simple; the homeowner did shoot the intruder. The homeowner has committed murder or, depending on circumstances, manslaughter/culpable homicide. That element does not require to be proven.

The homeowner's defence is that of extenuating circumstances, i.e. that he believed his life to be in serious jeopardy and, under the circumstances, it was fair and reasonable for that person to employ proportionate force. It is the defence team's job to prove that was the case, and the prosecutor's job to hold it up to the cold light of proper scrutiny.

In Scotland, for example, this is classed as a "special defence" in the same category as an alibi (wherein the accused has to prove that he was elsewhere).

The prosecution has to prove that I broke the law to convict me: No proof of a broken law, no conviction.

The dead body is usually a bit of a giveaway.

In this case, the prosecution has to demonstrate, pretty much positively because it's a murder, that either the shooter was not in danger or that the level of force he used was not appropriate.

In that case we're dealing with yet another case where US law seems to have charted it's own wee route. I note, however, that a number of other US posters have advised that their individual states apply the same basic approach as the European system. So perhaps it's just your wee bitty of the US, eh?


So far, from what we've heard about this case, it looks to me like the shooter was involved in a felony assault (striking a person with a loaded firearm, which is felony assault in Indiana, and at least felony stupidity everywhere) when the death occurred, making it a felony homicide. That hinges, of course, on the C.S.I. stuff verifying or falsifying the co-housebreaker's story.

And, of course, in presenting their evidence you would expect significant cross-examination of the witnesses (i.e. the burglars). Much will rest on how much weight the jury attaches to their testimony, together with the forensics.
 
Hi

Firstly, you know as well as I do that every one of the western democracies has the "innocent until proven" concept at the heart of their legal systems. So stop trying the old "we're free" routine, which is blatantly not appropriate or relevant. :rolleyes:


Ummm... actually... I don't.

I've studied my legal rights and responsibilities over here so that I know, pretty much exactly, where I stand when it's guns-out, but I've not done it for any other countries as I don't anticipate carrying a firearm in any of them.

If it came off as snarkey, I'm apologize and I'll try not to do it again.

Moving swiftly along, however, in Canada, Europe, and the Antipodes - and I mention these countries to make clear that the US isn't in a majority here - the position is simple; the homeowner did shoot the intruder. The homeowner has committed murder or, depending on circumstances, manslaughter/culpable homicide. That element does not require to be proven.


He shot the guy to death, yes, but until someone comes up with a verdict in court, or gets a bye from the coroners' inquest or grand jury, it's not murder or manslaughter, right? Until then, he's just a suspect (again, over here - I don't know how it's implemented over yonder).

The homeowner's defence is that of extenuating circumstances, i.e. that he believed his life to be in serious jeopardy and, under the circumstances, it was fair and reasonable for that person to employ proportionate force. It is the defence team's job to prove that was the case, and the prosecutor's job to hold it up to the cold light of proper scrutiny.


Again, over here, cold light of proper scrutiny be damned: A prosecutor's job is to do whatever he has to do, within the law, to obtain a conviction, just as it's the defense's job to do whatever he has to, again, within the law, to obtain clemency.

I'd always wondered about the accuracy of British TV law. Your guys always come off as so... I dunno... polite. :)

In Scotland, for example, this is classed as a "special defence" in the same category as an alibi (wherein the accused has to prove that he was elsewhere).


Not over here. The prosecution has to prove all phases of the case.

If I say that I was in Alaska at the time of the shooting, the prosecution has to place me at the scene of the incident. If I say that I was in deadly fear of the person I shot, the prosecution has to show that there was no sane and logical reason for that fear to exist (like, for instance, that the two intruders were on their knees with their hands up, posing neither danger nor threat).

Also, in murder/manslaughter cases, all proof has to be, "beyond doubt." That means that if there is any possibility that I was in Alaska at the time, and the prosecution can't place me, positively, at the scene of the shooting, I get to walk away.

I don't have to prove anything. (That whole, "I as in Alaska," "no you weren't," thing would probably have been ironed out at the grand jury level, though.)

The dead body is usually a bit of a giveaway.


AHAHAHA! A DEAD giveaway? /snorts

More seriously: A dead body isn't proof of criminal wrongdoing. At that point, it's just another source of evidence.

If it were I who'd GENERATED the dead body, however, I'd expect to be detained by the police as a suspect in a killing, but that's all it would be, and not homicide or manslaughter at that point. Even if I were charged with murder, I'd still only be, "the alleged killer," right up until the time I became, "the defendant."

In that case we're dealing with yet another case where US law seems to have charted it's own wee route. I note, however, that a number of other US posters have advised that their individual states apply the same basic approach as the European system. So perhaps it's just your wee bitty of the US, eh?


It may be. Indiana has some odd attitudes about a lot of things.

For instance, Indiana sided with the slave states when it came to owning people (look up the history of American gun control: Slave states and Indiana were the only places you had to have a license to carry a concealed firearm, mostly so folks could know which abolitionists they could safely harass), but with the unionists when it came to fighting over the matter of a state being allowed to determine the legality of said ownership. (Pro-slavery, but more strongly pro-union, you see. I think that Indiana was the only state that had armed forces on both sides of the conflict.)

More recently the state considered defining the value of Pi to be THREE, even. Ok - all stated values of Pi are approximations, right, but WOW... 3 is just... LAZY!

On the other hand, please remember that until recently, the state of Texas, in an attempt to abrogate its, "wild West," image, had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation!

All this, "Castle Doctrine," stuff is terra incognita to the Texas courts.

And, of course, in presenting their evidence you would expect significant cross-examination of the witnesses (i.e. the burglars). Much will rest on how much weight the jury attaches to their testimony, together with the forensics.


Indeed. I'm a great fan of forensics. I'd rather have one single good, solid fingerprint than a hundred eye-witnesses.

The only problem with forensics is that an unfortunate number of US citizens don't know enough science or history to be able to understand testimony involving forensic science. :(

Lol - and - was it Ambrose Bierce that said that a jury is a group of 12 persons who were too dumb to figure a way out of jury duty, employed to decide who has the better lawyer?

Note: I've tried to find a follow-up on the OP in the Laredo, TX, news.

No information yet....
 
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Police can always use deadly force:

 
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Firstly, you know as well as I do that every one of the western democracies has the "innocent until proven" concept at the heart of their legal systems.

This is inaccurate. France, for one, uses the Roman concept of "guilty until proven innocent", with the proviso that a determination of false accusation entails serious consequences--a notion that would greatly dampen trivial litigation.
 
This is inaccurate. France, for one, uses the Roman concept of "guilty until proven innocent", with the proviso that a determination of false accusation entails serious consequences--a notion that would greatly dampen trivial litigation.

Really? How odd.

But then I'm especially glad I no longer live in France.
 
This is inaccurate. France, for one, uses the Roman concept of "guilty until proven innocent", with the proviso that a determination of false accusation entails serious consequences--a notion that would greatly dampen trivial litigation.

Please, I know it's all trendy and cool in certain cirlces to hate the French, but a slight amount of research before mudslinging would be appreciated.

From the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, which has constitutional force in France:

9. As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law.


http://www.hrcr.org/docs/frenchdec.html
 
This is inaccurate. France, for one, uses the Roman concept of "guilty until proven innocent", with the proviso that a determination of false accusation entails serious consequences--a notion that would greatly dampen trivial litigation.

Please, I know it's all trendy and cool in certain cirlces to hate the French, but a slight amount of research before mudslinging would be appreciated.

From the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, which has constitutional force in France:

9. As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law.
Well, dang it all, maybe the Frogs ain't as anti-freedom as they act. Can we still hate 'em anyway?
 
Hi

I remember that "guilty until," thing from the Napoleonic Code, but I didn't know if it was still hanging around. It was more investigative than adversarial in procedure, with the judiciary taking a more active role in the actual investigation.

<<sigh>> I know more about the 18th century than I do about last week. Pitiful.
 
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This is inaccurate. France, for one, uses the Roman concept of "guilty until proven innocent", with the proviso that a determination of false accusation entails serious consequences--a notion that would greatly dampen trivial litigation.

In all fairness, we covered that in law class and it's not really that simple - as others have pointed out.

Incidentally, Scots law is based on the Roman and French systems but is nevertheless predicated on "inncocent until proven guilty". We also have significantly different - many would argue better - corrobatory standards than English law.
 
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Hi


Ummm... actually... I don't.

<snip>

If it came off as snarkey, I'm apologize and I'll try not to do it again.


Storm in a teacup.

There are a number of posters here, such as JdG, who like to thrown in arguments to the affect that the US enjoys significantly more freedoms than the other stable western democracies. Gun control is one of them - not yourself, I hasten to add - but another is freedom of speech. Sometimes it's tied up in some crap about the US Constitution, for added effect.

Now of course the thing is that, notwithstanding the "Land of the Free" crap, this is demonstrably untrue. None of the posters have, when challenged, been able to identify any substative difference. For example, freedom of speech or the right to a fair trial are both guaranteed through the European Convention on Human Rights (OCHR) which is bidning on member states and can be enforced at European level if required.

There are, of course, differences in how we view freedom of speech and in particular the extent to which it can be fettered in respect of encouraging religious or racial hatred - and then there's the libel laws - but the core doctrine is the same.

Against this background, you'll appreciate my less than sympathetic response to your implicit suggestion that the US might is some way be special in having a "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.
 
Well, dang it all, maybe the Frogs ain't as anti-freedom as they act. Can we still hate 'em anyway?

My comments were not intended to be snarky nor hateful; they were based on personal experience inre several civil matters, as contrasted with criminal matters, alleged against me, which were summarily acquitted for lack of merit. [Small satisfaction that it is, the consequences were indeed grave.]

My intention was not to put France "on blast", but rather to point out that there is more than one way to achieve justice. As a matter of fact, I'm rather grateful as to how it works in practice.

Likewise, for lack of evidence beyond anecdotal, I concede that, constitutionally, French justice adheres to "The Rights of Man".

Yet I would like to concur that it is seriously myopic to believe that "justice", as practiced in the United States of America, is somehow exemplary. It is no better, nor worse, than the judges who render opinions, hopefully according to the law.

Sorry for the derail.

Back on topic, it's cases like these that lead me to be a strong advocate for stricter licensing, with periodic examination of competency. Across the board, whether teaching, operating a vehicle, or owning a weapon. Licensing does not infringe, but rather qualifies. ;)
 
Hi

Storm in a teacup.

... snip ...

Against this background, you'll appreciate my less than sympathetic response to your implicit suggestion that the US might is some way be special in having a "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.


Indeed! Until you and Rolfe straightened me out, I had some pretty cockeyed ideas about UK law and society. Thanks for that. (Also: When I thought your gun laws were forced upon the populace by the government instead of being prompted by the populace, I WAS one of those, "land of the Free," guys. Live and learn.)

I said that, "innocent until proven guilty," bit because we're actually kind of nuts about it over here, as I've tried to explain above, and did not mean it as a swing at you guys.

... snip ...

Yet I would like to concur that it is seriously myopic to believe that "justice", as practiced in the United States of America, is somehow exemplary. It is no better, nor worse, than the judges who render opinions, hopefully according to the law.

Sorry for the derail.


I think that US law is one of those, "best we can do, considering the circumstances," things, with "under the circumstances," being synonymous with, "dealing with Americans." It's also applied by your Mk.-4-Mod-Oh fallible human beings. It also turns out that the state of Louisiana STILL uses big chunks of the Napoleonic Code in its judicial system, so I guess, at least... we're flexible! :D

Back on topic, it's cases like these that lead me to be a strong advocate for stricter licensing, with periodic examination of competency. Across the board, whether teaching, operating a vehicle, or owning a weapon. Licensing does not infringe, but rather qualifies. ;)


Mmmm... I don't know about licensing for ownership.

You can teach your own kids without a license, and you can drive about on your own property with neither drivers' license nor plates.

As long as your firearm stays on your property, I don't think you should need a license.

On the other hand, for those of us WITH said license, I would LOVE to see periodic competency examinations. If the state mandated competency exams, it would also have to mandate training requirements and practice facilities!

:D I'd get to SHOOT MORE!! :D
 
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Hi




Indeed! Until you and Rolfe straightened me out, I had some pretty cockeyed ideas about UK law and society. Thanks for that. (Also: When I thought your gun laws were forced upon the populace by the government instead of being prompted by the populace, I WAS one of those, "land of the Free," guys. Live and learn.)

I said that, "innocent until proven guilty," bit because we're actually kind of nuts about it over here, as I've tried to explain above, and did not mean it as a swing at you guys.




I think that US law is one of those, "best we can do, considering the circumstances," things, with "under the circumstances," being synonymous with, "dealing with Americans." It's also applied by your Mk.-4-Mod-Oh fallible human beings. It also turns out that the state of Louisiana STILL uses big chunks of the Napoleonic Code in its judicial system, so I guess, at least... we're flexible! :D




Mmmm... I don't know about licensing for ownership.

You can teach your own kids without a license, and you can drive about on your own property with neither drivers' license nor plates.

As long as your firearm stays on your property, I don't think you should need a license.

On the other hand, for those of us WITH said license, I would LOVE to see periodic competency examinations. If the state mandated competency exams, it would also have to mandate training requirements and practice facilities!

:D I'd get to SHOOT MORE!! :D
Especially if it was free and had two or three active target ranges (good guy/bad guy targets with motion - different settings.:):D:):D:)
 
It also turns out that the state of Louisiana STILL uses big chunks of the Napoleonic Code in its judicial system, so I guess, at least... we're flexible! :D

agreed [C'est d'accord]


You can teach your own kids without a license, and you can drive about on your own property with neither drivers' license nor plates.

That depends on which state. There are some states where that is unlawful.

As long as your firearm stays on your property, I don't think you should need a license.

Something with which I concur. Substitute "weapon" for "firearm" and see where it goes. ;)

On the other hand, for those of us WITH said license, I would LOVE to see periodic competency examinations. If the state mandated competency exams, it would also have to mandate training requirements and practice facilities!

Should I nominate you, for the pith?
 
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Hi

Please elaborate--within the scope of this topic, if you please ;)


Frankly, a database of where every gun in the state is stored sounds, with hackers rampant and hoodlums paying for stolen credit card numbers, WAAAY too much like a shopping list.

I'm not too worried about my state taking action against gun owners. I'd just pack up and bug out. Vermont is nice, I hear, and I have kin there. Besides, Indiana seems to be taking the, "bear arms," part fairly seriously.

I just don't want my address coming up if someone does a simple SQL search for a key with more than ten records.

agreed [C'est d'accord]


:D D'at wha' Thibideau, he say! :D

That depends on which state. There are some states where that is unlawful.


Really! Wow - how do the farmers get by there? In Indiana, they have the kids too small to heave the bales drive the tractors on the farm!

Something with which I concur. Substitute "weapon" for "firearm" and see where it goes. ;)


The problem with a lot of, "weapons," is keeping the effect in the house. :boggled: On the other hand, I'm good with people having up to, say, fragmentation hand grenades. :) (As for more generic weapons, I've a sword and a couple of good knives close at hand, as well.)

Should I nominate you, for the pith?


I don't know what for, but thank you for the offer. :D

I think it's very important to be well trained if you're going to carry around a thing that can, in the twinkling of an eye, turn four pounds of pull over less than an inch into around 300 Ft/Lbs of energy extending out over 200 yards.

I train seriously... errr... USED to train seriously, but training by one's self is different than training under someone who actually knows how to DO stuff.

I'd like very much to see mandatory continued training and competency testing for Concealed Carry License holders.
 

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