Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[WildCat]

My bolding.

Um, perhaps not? Perhaps they reject the way things are and would prefer to take their chances outside the Euro? Many have expressed that sentiment in this country.

Just a thought.

IIRC polls show 75% of Greeks want to remain with the Euro, so I doubt that's it.

eta: timhau beat me to it.

And I really doubt Greece would suddenly become responsible stewards of their economy just because they have their own currency.

 

[GlennB]

IIRC polls show 75% of Greeks want to remain with the Euro, so I doubt that's it.

It's well down on that these days.

 

[timhau]

It's well down on that these days.

That seemed to be still the case 2.5 months ago. If you claim that things are radically different now, this would be a good time to give a source or two.

 

[MG1962]

That seemed to be still the case 2.5 months ago. If you claim that things are radically different now, this would be a good time to give a source or two.

Well the election is a good pointer. Only 33% of people voted for parties supporting measures aimed at keeping them in the Euro - So by default 66% dont support inclusion. This was a major, if not the biggest mandate question posed to the voters

 

[WildCat]

Well the election is a good pointer. Only 33% of people voted for parties supporting measures aimed at keeping them in the Euro - So by default 66% dont support inclusion. This was a major, if not the biggest mandate question posed to the voters

So it wasn't about austerity, like all the news media is saying?

 

[Tatyana]

I think the Greeks just don't want to pay any taxes at all.

Tax evasion is a source of national pride.

 

[WildCat]

There's a picture here that sums up Greeks perfectly. A young girl, about 16-17, at an anti-austerity political rally. She's smoking a cigarette.

Perfect symbolism of the just think about today, don't think about tomorrow attitude.

 

[MG1962]

So it wasn't about austerity, like all the news media is saying?

So you actually have no idea what the austerity measures where or what their aim was?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

There's a picture here that sums up Greeks perfectly. A young girl, about 16-17, at an anti-austerity political rally. She's smoking a cigarette.

Perfect symbolism of the just think about today, don't think about tomorrow attitude.

That's quite the broad brush you have there.

 

[Puppycow]

That seemed to be still the case 2.5 months ago. If you claim that things are radically different now, this would be a good time to give a source or two.

A slightly more recent poll has 66% of Greeks wanting to keep the euro, but against austerity.

 

[lionking]

There's a picture here that sums up Greeks perfectly. A young girl, about 16-17, at an anti-austerity political rally. She's smoking a cigarette.

Perfect symbolism of the just think about today, don't think about tomorrow attitude.

Wow. STOP THE PRESSES. Teenager found not thinking about tomorrow.

 

[MG1962]

Wow. STOP THE PRESSES. Teenager found not thinking about tomorrow.

Greek teenager- stick to the facts

 

[Puppycow]

Robert Wright makes an interesting point:

2) The last time a Nazi party succeeded in actually gaining power in Europe, it was after crippling austerity had been imposed on the country by other countries.

The war reparations from WWI led to severe economic problems in Germany, which may have helped Hitler come to power.

I don't think that will happen again, but it could explain why support for Nazis has increased (as well as support for far-left parties).

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

This changed my view of American conservatives completely.

 

[MG1962]

Robert Wright makes an interesting point:



The war reparations from WWI led to severe economic problems in Germany, which may have helped Hitler come to power.

I don't think that will happen again, but it could explain why support for Nazis has increased (as well as support for far-left parties).

Ya know I was having exactly the same thought - it is common to see nationalism and radicalism sharply rise in situations like this

 

[timhau]

A slightly more recent poll has 66% of Greeks wanting to keep the euro, but against austerity.

I assume there is also a minority who wants to keep the euro and is willing to accept the austerity package (which pretty much is the only deal they're offered which doesn't involve leaving the Eurozone).

 

[MG1962]

I assume there is also a minority who wants to keep the euro and is willing to accept the austerity package (which pretty much is the only deal they're offered which doesn't involve leaving the Eurozone).

I think the French elections might point to a shift in political positions before the next round of polling

 

[commandlinegamer]

Robert Wright makes an interesting point:



The war reparations from WWI led to severe economic problems in Germany, which may have helped Hitler come to power.

I don't think that will happen again, but it could explain why support for Nazis has increased (as well as support for far-left parties).

I only made that connection when I saw a picture of Golden Dawn flags the other night. It's similar both to the Swastika and the Greek Key motif.

"Squeeze Germany till the pips squeak" may have been a popular sentiment at the end of WWI, but it didn't do us any favours in the long term.

 

[McHrozni]

I only made that connection when I saw a picture of Golden Dawn flags the other night. It's similar both to the Swastika and the Greek Key motif.

"Squeeze Germany till the pips squeak" may have been a popular sentiment at the end of WWI, but it didn't do us any favours in the long term.

I wouldn't compare Versailles treaty and Greek bailouts at all. The peace treaty was a form of punishment and revenge for a brutal war the Entente powers were almost as guilty of causing as the Central powers were. Revenge is never a good thing.

In Greece, however, the measurements in place are just a necessary reform Greece must execute in order to be able to finance itself. The austerity will either come from Troika demands, from the fact their state will simply run out of money or through hyperinflation. The first one is the only orderly option that allows them to control the damage and has any cushioning mechanisms. I'm not sure any of their voters realize that. These political jackals have absolutely no interest in telling them that of course.

McHrozni

 

[Democracy Simulator]

I wouldn't compare Versailles treaty and Greek bailouts at all. The peace treaty was a form of punishment and revenge for a brutal war the Entente powers were almost as guilty of causing as the Central powers were. Revenge is never a good thing.

In Greece, however, the measurements in place are just a necessary reform Greece must execute in order to be able to finance itself. The austerity will either come from Troika demands, from the fact their state will simply run out of money or through hyperinflation. The first one is the only orderly option that allows them to control the damage and has any cushioning mechanisms. I'm not sure any of their voters realize that. These political jackals have absolutely no interest in telling them that of course.

McHrozni

AFAIK the projected 2012 Greek deficit is smaller than the interest payments that they are paying on the debt. How much of the bailout is actually to pay for services and the function of government and how much of it is simply there to enable roll-over of existing debt? It is quite hard to find information on this subject, but here is an article that attempts to get a handle on it:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/where-does-greek-bailout-money-go

The conclusion of this article is that only 19c of every euro in the bailout package goes to Greek spending, the other 71% goes to foreign and domestic holders of Greek debt, with a whopping 18% going straight back to the ECB. Of course, the political jackals of the EU, the IMF and ECB have no interest in making this common knowledge, especially among the Greek populace.

There has been a lot of scapegoating and borderline racism directed towards the Greeks, not because they've done anything unusual (rack up a lot of debt), but because the consequences of a Greek default are potentially catastrophic for the EU and for the interconnected financial institutions.

It should be clear that whatever Greeks decide is in their best interest, austerity is inevitable; the choice is between austerity imposed from abroad and the risks posed of self-determination. I will be interested to see just how much appears to be at stake - if the Greeks say 'no', can and will the Troika leave them to it with all the consequences?