Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[aleCcowaN]

If it were this thread's topic I would reply fully, pals

Name of the party is "Podemos." I hear them on TV every day. Agree with dudalb, these people are freaking nuts, ...

I was just mocking dudalb's voodoo dolls which he doesn't bother to fully stitch before he starts sticking pins in it.

Thankfully this was proven wrong.

http://www.businessinsider.com/podemos-falling-in-spanish-polls-2015-7

But in the wake of Greece's most recent bailout negotiations, Podemos' popularity has begun to slide, and markets have all but ruled out the possibility that Podemos will take power in a Syriza-like fashion.

McHrozni

Even in a thread about that specific topic your reply would only deserve a fully dismissal based on what you wrote doesn't relate to what you quoted. It just marginally backs what I said about Ciudatans in an earlier post (what for any person who knows just a iota on the subject happens to be "hidden in plain sight" in the press bollocks you linked)

 

[CapelDodger]

As I said earlier, I imagine the Troika knows this well. This can be used to persuade Greece to become sustainable in exchange for debt relief, however.

I thought it was made pretty explicit during the recent negoiations that the Troika recognised the necessity of debt relief but was not going to let the subject get entwined with the structural reform issue, come what may.

 

[CapelDodger]

Grexit is like cancer. If you don't talk about it, it won't get you. If you talk about it, you're summoning it. With such kind of thinking no wonder the economy is so forked up. And also no wonder such kind of thinking escape the attention of the self-called skeptics.

I'm always alert for it but never discount cynicism. Use the threat to get compliance then do it anyway.

 

[McHrozni]

I thought it was made pretty explicit during the recent negoiations that the Troika recognised the necessity of debt relief but was not going to let the subject get entwined with the structural reform issue, come what may.

Well, that's reasonable. Without substantial - we could also say massive - structural reforms, debt relief will not solve Greek problems. Let Greece reform out of necessity, and then offer as little debt relief as it is needed to make Greece sustainable, but not more.

Solidarity is great unless it is exploited. Greece has been exploiting European solidarity to the point of obscenity. They don't deserve what they already got, let alone yet more. They should get more because it's best for all concerned, but they don't deserve it, and shouldn't get one iota more than what is absolutely necessary.

McHrozni

 

[Puppycow]

Few articles of interest here. IMF is now pressing for debt relief (restructuring, call it what you will). If only they had done so sooner in this process. Can they succeed in convincing reluctant creditors where Syriza failed?

There is no way Greece can pay off its debts without having some portion of it forgiven. This is the reality. The IMF sees it. Creditor governments though face another reality though: their voters are fed up with bailing out Greece. A bitter pill must be swallowed sooner or later.

I think a lot of unnecessary damage has been done by the brinksmanship of the negotiations. Neither side is entirely blameless in this. They have created a situation that is very harmful for the economy: people do not trust the banks with their money. Nobody wants to lend any money to anyone in Greece. This will hurt growth. Businesses cannot expand under this situation. If a deal had been agreed sooner without shutting down the banks, people would not have been so panicked.

Meanwhile, the New York Times reports:
Bailout Money Goes to Greece, Only to Flow Out Again

FRANKFURT — The Greek businessman was nervous as he carried a suitcase stuffed with cash through passport control at the Athens airport a few months ago. But the distracted and overworked customs officials waved him through.

A few hours later the man touched down in Frankfurt, where he quickly deposited the money in a German bank.

The stash was part of 40 billion euros, or about $44 billion, that businesses and individuals have withdrawn from Greek banks since December, exacerbating the country’s financial woes.

The cash exodus is a small piece of a bigger puzzle over why — despite two major international bailouts — the Greek economy is in worse shape and more deeply in debt. It is a politically charged issue that will color the negotiations on a new financial assistance package worth €86 billion, about $95 billion.

 

[McHrozni]

If a deal had been agreed sooner without shutting down the banks, people would not have been so panicked.

*cough* referendum *cough*

I really don't see how Troika is to be blamed for the banking crisis in Greece. It is clear who the problem is, and it's not Troika, or ECB, or Angela Merkel. It's Tsipras and Syriza, who seem to think extortion by bluff is the way negotiations between debtors and creditors should be conducted

McHrozni

 

[timhau]

Now the Greeks have a chance to reject something again in September.

 

[Francesca R]

This is how populist becomes orthodox . . .

 

[McHrozni]

Now the Greeks have a chance to reject something again in September.

It's only sensible, seeing as what a failure Syriza's approach was.

We'll now see whether Greeks have learned anything from that. My guess would be no

What Greece should do is maintain capital controls and hold a referendum on whether to remain in EU and Euro or not. After that deciding the course of action would be relatively easy. Implementation of either would be hell, but at least you'd know what you need to do.

McHrozni

 

[WildCat]

but at least you'd know what you need to do.

Emigrate?

 

[Darth Rotor]

This is how populist becomes orthodox . . .

The Who had this song, with a lyric ... "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Nailed that one, they did. Is it possible that the Greeks won't get fooled again?

 

[McHrozni]

Emigrate?

Hehe

I'm talking about the government, which now has exactčy two options: the very bad one, and the worse one. It's debatable which of the two is Grexit and which is austerity, and whichever route is taken will almost certainly be viewed in history as the wrong one.

So why not put that to referendum? At least you'll have a mandate to pursue whichever policy wins most votes.

McHrozni

 

[Childlike Empress]

Post election interview: Varoufakis told you so

What will Varoufakis do next? He is clearly a man of genuine charisma and intellect with much still to offer. A professorship somewhere? He laughs. “I’m staying in politics. I don’t have to be in Parliament to be in politics. When I threw my hat in the ring in January, I said I’m not going to abandon Greece again. I will now live out my years in Greece, among the people who trusted me. I’m going to finish my book, then another book and then another. I’m going to lecture. But primarily I’m going to take the fight for democracy to the European level.”

“One lesson I learned during the negotiations was that nothing good can come from a member state fighting alone. Europeans at large are particularly worried — and Greece helped cement that worry — that democracy has become an empty word, and unless we find a way of networking across countries, along the lines of a very simple campaign of democratizing Europe, the continent is condemned to fragmentation. The only beneficiaries will be the racists, the bigots, the National Front, Golden Dawn, those forces that are pushing Europe toward to a postmodern 1930s.”

He should always check the brakes on his motorcycle.

 

[GlennB]

The Who had this song, with a lyric ... "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Nailed that one, they did. Is it possible that the Greeks won't get fooled again?

Pretty much the same coalition government has resulted, although some of the more extreme left faction of Syriza decamped before the election. It hardly matters, as every decision of any economic significance has to be OK'd by the Troika.

On a strange note, a new government junior minister, Kammenos of the Independent Greek party, resigned within 24 hours after his old Twitter account was found to be loaded with anti-Semitism and other nastiness (allegedly).

 

[WildCat]

Post election interview: Varoufakis told you so




He should always check the brakes on his motorcycle.

He thinks "democracy" means Greeks voting for taxpayers in the rest of the EU to give them money.



Greeks got themselves into this predicament, only Greeks can get them out. The other EU countries have done nothing to prevent Greece from collecting taxes from Greeks, Greeks did that all by themselves.

 

[aleCcowaN]

A little bit of update:

Greek public debt is now 180% of her GDP (no change, only surpassed by Japan's)
Unemployment in Greece is now 23.4%, dropping from previous ~25% (tens of thousands of Greeks and foreigners have emigrated because of the lack of employment).
Private deposits in the Greek bank system have been pretty constant.
Greece's currency has strengthen 15% when compared with UK's. Than is very logic because Greece is a buoyant economy while Britain's is going third-wordly ... oh, wait!