Correa Neto
Philosopher
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 8,548
Folks, Atlantis proponents first need to build a plausible case for Atlantis – the burden of proof lies on their shoulders. To date they have failed miserably to build their case, be it by providing reliable evidence of Atlantis existence and also when it comes down to present plausible mechanisms to sink the civilization. And I'll tell you - they'll keep failing, for their task is at least as hard as proving evolution wrong. Strong words? Yes, strong but true. Let’s look at some aspects of this myth.
First Atlantis…
The continent of Atlantis was an island
Which lay before the great flood
In the area we now call the Atlantic Ocean.
So great an area of land, that from her western shores
Those beautiful sailors journeyed to the South
And the North Americas with ease
In their ships with painted sails.
To the east, Africa was a neighbor,
Across a short strait of sea miles.
Whoops! Donovan! Eeeeek! OK, but it serves as a starting point…
Atlantis is usually seen as an island continent; it is supposed to have been sunk in one day or so. The first problem is that there are no geological phenomena capable of sinking so fast and so deep something that big. Get a physical geology book, read it. I bet you will not find one- yes, some woos try to twist some phenomena and the result is always a failure. An example: the global sea level variations. Sorry Atlantis-lovers; they are well known for decades, Google for eustatic variation curves and sequence stratigraphy if you want to know the real deal. Now, the biggest variations are around 400m; since sea floor where Atlantis is supposed to be located is about 3000 to 4000 meters… I must also mention that there are absolutely no evidences that the Atlantic ocean floor was ever above sea level where Atlantis was supposed to be.
Oh, ok, but what about a smaller island? OK, lets check. First of all let me remind you that a big civilization needs lots of natural resources to develop. Atlantis is supposed to have been a kick-ass civilization. Lets suppose it was not that advanced, it was just a ahead of the other civilizations back then by say, having a technology such as sword-making. Whoops, Houston, we have a problem. You need metals to build swords. Stuff like Cu, Fe, Sn… And you need a certain set of geological phenomena to create these ore deposits and they will need certain environments. Oceanic islands such as Canary and Madeira islands are out of the game. You’ll need island arcs, and the only one available in the Atlantic is the Caribbean arc. Oh, OK, maybe they got metals by trading or their mines were somewhere else.
Well, we shall move ahead and imagine a smaller island – but still big enough to host a big civilization. What size would it need to be? Way bigger than Pascua island, I would guess… Well Houston, we have a problem, again… Not too many of these are available at the Atlantic ocean – unless we count Iceland and the Caribbean. We have problem (what a surprise) - explain why no remains of Atlantis are above sea level, since well, the Caribbeans are still above sea level and a civilization would certainly also expand to the upper parts of the islands. Where are these ruins?
Lets imagine that maybe, 10k years ago, lower sea levels exposed a bit more land at islands about the size of Madeira and suspend our disbelief, supposing a big advanced civilization could develop and sustain itself at such places, using Polynesia as a starting point. We can even have two possibilities- one able to work metals and another without metal tools, not unlike the Mayas and other pre-Columbian civilizations. So, happy with this, we’ll move on- Atlantis is relatively small and has no metal tools. We can also keep the Caribbean Atlantis running on the background. But note that from a global awe-inspiring empire we’re left with a single city-state, possibly without metal tools or eventually a small group of cities, most of them small, at a couple of islands. OK, may build large structures from stone or timber (but remember Pascua island- chop the woods and your island civilization falls).
Now that we downsized Atlantis, lets find ways to obliterate Atlantis. If its an island, now there may be ways to sink it. But it must be a fast way. Lets check some phenomena which could do the trick.
Volcanic eruption: Most known one, the top candidate, especially because the islands we are talking about are volcanic or have volcanoes nearby. But its not so easy. Oceanic island volcanism is relatively calm and will not erase an island from the map; explosive Krakatau and Santorini-like volcanism requires a special geologic environment such as island arcs – Canaries, Madeira and Iceland are out of the game. Houston, we have a problem, once again- any volcanic eruption big enough to wipe an island would have left marks, ranging from a huge caldera at the site to ash beds on distant glaciers and passing through massive tsunamis in the Americas, Africa and Europe. Are there any evidences of these available on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not that I’m aware, but Atlantis “researchers”, it is your burden to show us the evidence.
Asteroid impact: How unlucky those Atlanteans were… Oh, erm, uhm, Houston, guess what? We have another problem… Any asteroid impact big enough to obliterate an island would have generated a BIG crater, widespread ash (remember the K/T boundary signature?) and tektites beds and massive tsunamis as well. Got some evidence of these on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not that I’m aware, but Atlantis “researchers”, it is your burden to show us the evidence.
Massive earthquakes: These are most likely to happen at or nearby convergent plate boundaries, present at the Atlantic only at the Caribbean arc. Now, huge earthquakes may also happen at other sites, such as the Lisbon earthquake. An earthquake strong enough to sink an island would be huge, enormous, much larger than the one which generated the recent Indian ocean tsunami. One similar in magnitude can destroy and depending on location and substrate, sink a small city a couple of meters below sea level. Hey Houston, remember us? Guess what? Yep, we have a problem… Where are the evidences? Got any on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Mighty Atlantis was restricted to that city? Nothing else on higher and more solid grounds? How unlucky… And the tsunami which should have washed the shores of the Americas, Africa and Europe?
Massive landslides: There are evidences that some HUGE landslide can occur at oceanic islands and the Canaries are a possible source of them. Do I need to tell you out there at Houston that there’s a problem? Actually more than one. First of all, the island will not disappear, only the part where the unlucky Atlanteans decided to build their single city… Where is the rest of this civilization? Why haven’t we found the ruins of a single temple at the top of a mountain on the island? Note that the massive landslide would also create giant tsunamis. Got evidence of these on Atlantis alleged timeframe?
Tsunami: Will not sink an island, but a tsunami can surely wash away several cities and it is not hard to imagine how this can evolve to a myth about a sunken city. Any of the previously cited phenomena can trigger huge tsunamis. An asteroid hitting then ocean floor, a huge volcanic eruption, a massive landslide a strong earthquake, all these phenomena can create tsunamis and they may have happened somewhere else instead of doomed Atlantis island. Maybe we can add to this a comet exploding in the atmosphere- this will not create a crater but maybe it can create a tsunami. Not sure on this, however. But wait, yes, I will say Houston we have problems, because are there evidences of huge tsunamis (and the phenomena which triggered them as well) on the shores of the Atlantic ocean during Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not to mention that it requires the unlikely case of all Atlantis’ infrastructure having been located on the side of the island affected by the waves…
Now, some Atlantis “researcher” might want to babble something about Akrotiri, Helike, the Pacific ocean, some city on the Andes, etc. But please remember – Atlantis should be 10Ky old and located at the Atlantic ocean. We already changed the original description by Plato by shrinking it and still found it to be very unlikely if not impossible. Changing location and age will not increase Atlantis’ plausibility – it will just turn it in to something else, which will no longer be Atlantis.
First Atlantis…
The continent of Atlantis was an island
Which lay before the great flood
In the area we now call the Atlantic Ocean.
So great an area of land, that from her western shores
Those beautiful sailors journeyed to the South
And the North Americas with ease
In their ships with painted sails.
To the east, Africa was a neighbor,
Across a short strait of sea miles.
Whoops! Donovan! Eeeeek! OK, but it serves as a starting point…
Atlantis is usually seen as an island continent; it is supposed to have been sunk in one day or so. The first problem is that there are no geological phenomena capable of sinking so fast and so deep something that big. Get a physical geology book, read it. I bet you will not find one- yes, some woos try to twist some phenomena and the result is always a failure. An example: the global sea level variations. Sorry Atlantis-lovers; they are well known for decades, Google for eustatic variation curves and sequence stratigraphy if you want to know the real deal. Now, the biggest variations are around 400m; since sea floor where Atlantis is supposed to be located is about 3000 to 4000 meters… I must also mention that there are absolutely no evidences that the Atlantic ocean floor was ever above sea level where Atlantis was supposed to be.
Oh, ok, but what about a smaller island? OK, lets check. First of all let me remind you that a big civilization needs lots of natural resources to develop. Atlantis is supposed to have been a kick-ass civilization. Lets suppose it was not that advanced, it was just a ahead of the other civilizations back then by say, having a technology such as sword-making. Whoops, Houston, we have a problem. You need metals to build swords. Stuff like Cu, Fe, Sn… And you need a certain set of geological phenomena to create these ore deposits and they will need certain environments. Oceanic islands such as Canary and Madeira islands are out of the game. You’ll need island arcs, and the only one available in the Atlantic is the Caribbean arc. Oh, OK, maybe they got metals by trading or their mines were somewhere else.
Well, we shall move ahead and imagine a smaller island – but still big enough to host a big civilization. What size would it need to be? Way bigger than Pascua island, I would guess… Well Houston, we have a problem, again… Not too many of these are available at the Atlantic ocean – unless we count Iceland and the Caribbean. We have problem (what a surprise) - explain why no remains of Atlantis are above sea level, since well, the Caribbeans are still above sea level and a civilization would certainly also expand to the upper parts of the islands. Where are these ruins?
Lets imagine that maybe, 10k years ago, lower sea levels exposed a bit more land at islands about the size of Madeira and suspend our disbelief, supposing a big advanced civilization could develop and sustain itself at such places, using Polynesia as a starting point. We can even have two possibilities- one able to work metals and another without metal tools, not unlike the Mayas and other pre-Columbian civilizations. So, happy with this, we’ll move on- Atlantis is relatively small and has no metal tools. We can also keep the Caribbean Atlantis running on the background. But note that from a global awe-inspiring empire we’re left with a single city-state, possibly without metal tools or eventually a small group of cities, most of them small, at a couple of islands. OK, may build large structures from stone or timber (but remember Pascua island- chop the woods and your island civilization falls).
Now that we downsized Atlantis, lets find ways to obliterate Atlantis. If its an island, now there may be ways to sink it. But it must be a fast way. Lets check some phenomena which could do the trick.
Volcanic eruption: Most known one, the top candidate, especially because the islands we are talking about are volcanic or have volcanoes nearby. But its not so easy. Oceanic island volcanism is relatively calm and will not erase an island from the map; explosive Krakatau and Santorini-like volcanism requires a special geologic environment such as island arcs – Canaries, Madeira and Iceland are out of the game. Houston, we have a problem, once again- any volcanic eruption big enough to wipe an island would have left marks, ranging from a huge caldera at the site to ash beds on distant glaciers and passing through massive tsunamis in the Americas, Africa and Europe. Are there any evidences of these available on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not that I’m aware, but Atlantis “researchers”, it is your burden to show us the evidence.
Asteroid impact: How unlucky those Atlanteans were… Oh, erm, uhm, Houston, guess what? We have another problem… Any asteroid impact big enough to obliterate an island would have generated a BIG crater, widespread ash (remember the K/T boundary signature?) and tektites beds and massive tsunamis as well. Got some evidence of these on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not that I’m aware, but Atlantis “researchers”, it is your burden to show us the evidence.
Massive earthquakes: These are most likely to happen at or nearby convergent plate boundaries, present at the Atlantic only at the Caribbean arc. Now, huge earthquakes may also happen at other sites, such as the Lisbon earthquake. An earthquake strong enough to sink an island would be huge, enormous, much larger than the one which generated the recent Indian ocean tsunami. One similar in magnitude can destroy and depending on location and substrate, sink a small city a couple of meters below sea level. Hey Houston, remember us? Guess what? Yep, we have a problem… Where are the evidences? Got any on Atlantis alleged timeframe? Mighty Atlantis was restricted to that city? Nothing else on higher and more solid grounds? How unlucky… And the tsunami which should have washed the shores of the Americas, Africa and Europe?
Massive landslides: There are evidences that some HUGE landslide can occur at oceanic islands and the Canaries are a possible source of them. Do I need to tell you out there at Houston that there’s a problem? Actually more than one. First of all, the island will not disappear, only the part where the unlucky Atlanteans decided to build their single city… Where is the rest of this civilization? Why haven’t we found the ruins of a single temple at the top of a mountain on the island? Note that the massive landslide would also create giant tsunamis. Got evidence of these on Atlantis alleged timeframe?
Tsunami: Will not sink an island, but a tsunami can surely wash away several cities and it is not hard to imagine how this can evolve to a myth about a sunken city. Any of the previously cited phenomena can trigger huge tsunamis. An asteroid hitting then ocean floor, a huge volcanic eruption, a massive landslide a strong earthquake, all these phenomena can create tsunamis and they may have happened somewhere else instead of doomed Atlantis island. Maybe we can add to this a comet exploding in the atmosphere- this will not create a crater but maybe it can create a tsunami. Not sure on this, however. But wait, yes, I will say Houston we have problems, because are there evidences of huge tsunamis (and the phenomena which triggered them as well) on the shores of the Atlantic ocean during Atlantis alleged timeframe? Not to mention that it requires the unlikely case of all Atlantis’ infrastructure having been located on the side of the island affected by the waves…
Now, some Atlantis “researcher” might want to babble something about Akrotiri, Helike, the Pacific ocean, some city on the Andes, etc. But please remember – Atlantis should be 10Ky old and located at the Atlantic ocean. We already changed the original description by Plato by shrinking it and still found it to be very unlikely if not impossible. Changing location and age will not increase Atlantis’ plausibility – it will just turn it in to something else, which will no longer be Atlantis.