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Golden Audio correspondance.

I wish that they weren’t soooo over priced. I could get a RF frequency counter from a fellow ham and see if they are putting out any radio frequencies.

But even if they do, the output would be so small that they would not need a license. It is most likely only in the milliwatts.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Way back in my physics class, we learned that there was an upper limit to sound frequencies. It had something to do with the speed of a wave through a medium (speed of sound?), or maybe it was the actual distances between particles and how long it took for the particles to interact with each other and transmit a pressure wave (speed of sound again?). In any case, the upper limit for sound waves was less than 100kHz if I remember correctly.

As for the speakers being RF transmitters, I think it is something like owning an RF broadcasting antenna, but no RF amplifier to drive the antenna. There is no RF energy contained in an audio signal so there can't be any RF output from the speakers.

By the way, speakers do emit electromagnetic waves when they are being powered, even by audio signals. It is possible to hold a speaker to a coil of wire (such as that used in a guitar pickup) and the coil will pick up the sound from the speaker itself. I've used this trick when playing live to get sound effects to play through my guitar amp.

Strictly speaking, the speakers are emiting radio energy, but at a very low frequency. There are some military uses for such low frequency radio emissions but apparently, hi-fi users aren't interfering with them.
 
bjb said:
Way back in my physics class, we learned that there was an upper limit to sound frequencies. It had something to do with the speed of a wave through a medium (speed of sound?), or maybe it was the actual distances between particles and how long it took for the particles to interact with each other and transmit a pressure wave (speed of sound again?). In any case, the upper limit for sound waves was less than 100kHz if I remember correctly.

As for the speakers being RF transmitters, I think it is something like owning an RF broadcasting antenna, but no RF amplifier to drive the antenna. There is no RF energy contained in an audio signal so there can't be any RF output from the speakers.

By the way, speakers do emit electromagnetic waves when they are being powered, even by audio signals. It is possible to hold a speaker to a coil of wire (such as that used in a guitar pickup) and the coil will pick up the sound from the speaker itself. I've used this trick when playing live to get sound effects to play through my guitar amp.

Strictly speaking, the speakers are emiting radio energy, but at a very low frequency. There are some military uses for such low frequency radio emissions but apparently, hi-fi users aren't interfering with them.


What you did with your guitar wasn't done the way you think. The speakers are emitting source signal from the guitar, although it is a very small signal from your pickups and that signal is creating a postive feedback loop. It's not the electromagnetic frequency that caused the feedback, it was the feedback of the output signal from your guitar pickups.

By "emitting at a very low frequency" I am assuming you mean to say at a very low amplitude - the frequency is quite high. It's over 1 Ghz. This is irrelevant to the point of the letter. It is emitting, and is still subject to FCC license. Check the inside of your computer and you will see an FCC license number for your processor. It's emitting at a very low amplitude in the Ghz range. I'm willing to bet Golden Audio doesn't have an FCC license number for these because they don't need one - I.e. they don't emit anything.
 
The speaker wires are putting out RF too, but one wire in the pair cancels out the other. The speakers have a greater output because of the wire winding at the base of the cone is all going around in the same direction. But the output is nothing to speak of as far as I know. A good antenna to pick up those low frequencies would have to be over 2 miles long for 20 kHz, and much longer for the lower frequencies.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Paulhoff said:
The speaker wires are putting out RF too, but one wire in the pair cancels out the other. The speakers have a greater output because of the wire winding at the base of the cone is all going around in the same direction. But the output is nothing to speak of as far as I know. A good antenna to pick up those low frequencies would have to be over 2 miles long for 20 kHz, and much longer for the lower frequencies.

Paul

:) :) :)

Ok did I mistake what bjb was saying about frequency?

I would assume we were staying on topic with 1ghz, what does infrasound have to do with any of this?

Edited to add:

Never mind, I thought you said 20 Hz. I am in need of sleep.
 
fowlsound

Having read you biography on this forum, I have no question about your knowledge in this field. I was just answering bjb.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Paulhoff said:
fowlsound

Having read you biography on this forum, I have no question about your knowledge in this field. I was just answering bjb.

Paul

:) :) :)

Oh I didn't take it that way, I'm just flaking out.:hb:


People actually read those bios? I feel like a celebrity! :)
 
I guess in my biography I should write that if you get a Social Security check or payment or a tax return check, the payments go thru a lot of my programs. I work on the check-printing format as one of my first programs 16 years ago. So I am one of those people who have touch many people’s lives and no one knows.

Paul

P.S. No I will not put more money in your check. I am retired now, and nobody I know will do it either.

:) :) :)
 
There seems to be some confusion going on here. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I apologise.
Several times I thought MrSkinny was going to straighten things out, but he might have been too tired. :D
==============================
Radio emissions are an electromagnetic phenomenon traveling at the speed of light in the particular medium; also can be thought of as photons, but not usually at the frequencies dealt with in this thread.

Sound waves are physical displacement waves of a carrying medium (solid or fluid) usually as compression fronts, but can be lateral. They travel at the speed of sound in that medium.
----------
Transducers (speakers) and antennae only radiate frequencies they are supplied with by a driving signal. (OK, if nonlinearities come into play, harmonics or subharmonics are there, but at fractional power.) The frequency capabilities depend on the physical size of the radiator: higher frequencies require smaller radiators.

Transmission lines (even rudimentary ones like speaker leads and power lines) carry electrical signals of current and voltage that may or may not vary with time, and if varying, can possess frequencies from zero to almost the infrared frequencies. The signal on the line depends on the driving source (power amp) mostly. Low quality lines lose more high frequency power than better ones, and all have an upper limit on what they will carry with useful output.

Signals on a line don't care if they are meant to be sound or radio, they are just voltage and current. What is at the load end determines what form the "radiation" will take.
----------
Here I use transducer to be a device taking a varying voltage or current input and converting that to a mechanical replica of the variations of the input.

An antenna converts the electrical input to a pair of perpendicular electric and magnetic fields bound together and propagating away through space at the speed of light.
-----------
What we call sound is usually (for humans) considered to be from 20 Hz to 20 KHz, a three decade range.
Radio is considered by most laymen to be from 30 KHz to possibly 300 GHz, a seven decade range.

The reality is that, being entirely different forms of radiated energy, the radio (EM) spectrum extends far BELOW what we can hear, and sonics extend far into the upper frequencies of what we commonly think of as the RF bands: Both forms CAN cover the same ranges of frequencies.

The military uses transmitters in the low end of our range of hearing, but we never hear it because it is EM and not sound.

There are many uses of sonic energy far into the same band used by radio and television, but your all-band receiver wont hear it, because it is mechanical vibration and not EM.
---------
Sound in air at normal conditions won't carry well at these higher frequencies, but they carry well in liquids and solids

Radio at the lowest frequencies can communicate globally with submarines or underground recievers.
---------

I tried to keep this non-technical, but to still convey the needed information.

I hope I succeeded. :) :)

Dave

ETA: It appears that in the time it took me to read all the posts up to that time and then compose my reply (several hours due to an unending stream of interruptions) that {Mr NoToobs (forgot the name)} skidded into what I wanted to clarify. Oh well, maybe someone will get something out of my post.:) :( :D
 
CaveDave said:
There seems to be some confusion going on here. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I apologise.
Several times I thought MrSkinny was going to straighten things out, but he might have been too tired. :D
==============================
Radio emissions are an electromagnetic phenomenon traveling at the speed of light in the particular medium; also can be thought of as photons, but not usually at the frequencies dealt with in this thread.

Sound waves are physical displacement waves of a carrying medium (solid or fluid) usually as compression fronts, but can be lateral. They travel at the speed of sound in that medium.
----------
Transducers (speakers) and antennae only radiate frequencies they are supplied with by a driving signal. (OK, if nonlinearities come into play, harmonics or subharmonics are there, but at fractional power.) The frequency capabilities depend on the physical size of the radiator: higher frequencies require smaller radiators.

Transmission lines (even rudimentary ones like speaker leads and power lines) carry electrical signals of current and voltage that may or may not vary with time, and if varying, can possess frequencies from zero to almost the infrared frequencies. The signal on the line depends on the driving source (power amp) mostly. Low quality lines lose more high frequency power than better ones, and all have an upper limit on what they will carry with useful output.

Signals on a line don't care if they are meant to be sound or radio, they are just voltage and current. What is at the load end determines what form the "radiation" will take.
----------
Here I use transducer to be a device taking a varying voltage or current input and converting that to a mechanical replica of the variations of the input.

An antenna converts the electrical input to a pair of perpendicular electric and magnetic fields bound together and propagating away through space at the speed of light.
-----------
What we call sound is usually (for humans) considered to be from 20 Hz to 20 KHz, a three decade range.
Radio is considered by most laymen to be from 30 KHz to possibly 300 GHz, a seven decade range.

The reality is that, being entirely different forms of radiated energy, the radio (EM) spectrum extends far BELOW what we can hear, and sonics extend far into the upper frequencies of what we commonly think of as the RF bands: Both forms CAN cover the same ranges of frequencies.

The military uses transmitters in the low end of our range of hearing, but we never hear it because it is EM and not sound.

There are many uses of sonic energy far into the same band used by radio and television, but your all-band receiver wont hear it, because it is mechanical vibration and not EM.
---------
Sound in air at normal conditions won't carry well at these higher frequencies, but they carry well in liquids and solids

Radio at the lowest frequencies can communicate globally with submarines or underground recievers.
---------

I tried to keep this non-technical, but to still convey the needed information.

I hope I succeeded. :) :)

Dave

ETA: It appears that in the time it took me to read all the posts up to that time and then compose my reply (several hours due to an unending stream of interruptions) that {Mr NoToobs (forgot the name)} skidded into what I wanted to clarify. Oh well, maybe someone will get something out of my post.:) :( :D


Dave -

First, good name. I am aslo a Dave.

Second - great post. I think there was a fundamental misunderstanding of what all of us were talking about, and your post will no doubt make it easier to decipher everything. Thank you.
 
fowlsound said:
Dave -

First, good name. I am aslo a Dave.
Hi. Glad to meet you, Dave. :) :)

fowlsound said:
Second - great post. I think there was a fundamental misunderstanding of what all of us were talking about, and your post will no doubt make it easier to decipher everything. Thank you.
Thank you, and you're welcome. I hope it helped, even if it was a little muddled.

Dave

P.S. There seem to be a lot of Daves around here. Must be a good omen. :D
 
fowlsound said:
I read that. I like the one asking if the tweeters are going to heat up his burrito.

That's just *asking* for a blue response.:D

I liked the imaginative use of the Sound Ring.

Seriously, the guys that run that stuff must know they are running a scam, right? The description is so nonsensical. Can the FTC get involved in cases like this?
 
GrnMtSkeptic said:
I liked the imaginative use of the Sound Ring.

Seriously, the guys that run that stuff must know they are running a scam, right? The description is so nonsensical. Can the FTC get involved in cases like this?

As for the fraudulent aspect, no the FTC wouldn't do anything.

My point to alerting them though was to tip the hand of Golden Audio to have to answer for the tweeters claim of emitting microwaves above 1gHz. If they do emit those microwaves and they don't have an FCC license they'll have hell to pay. If they don't emit anything (like I think) then the fraud is in the open.

Once they admit they don't do anything that's when we refer everything to the attorny general for legal action.
 
bjb- what you were picking up was the magnetic field from the speaker's voice coil. Some of the flux produced by the v.c. linked the pickup winding and induced a current in it. In essence, you created an impromptu, very inefficient transformer.

The suction-cup pickup coils you can use to record phone conversations work the same way- the magnetic field produced by the phone's earpiece induces a current in the pickup coil. Hearing aids usually have a built-in pickup coil which can be selected as the aid's input source (instead of the internal microphone) so that the wearer can use the phone.

Another example, which any recording engineer who has worked with analog multitrack will have encountered, is "sync crosstalk" while doing overdubs. This is caused by the magnetic field produced by the head for a track which is in record coupling to adjacent head cores and inducing current in the windings of these heads, so that the signal being recorded is heard when monitoring adjacent tracks which are in playback. (In sync recording, the record head is used both for recording and for playback so that the recorded signal goes down on the tape in sync with the other tracks which the musician is playing to.) This phenomenon has scared @#$% out of inexperienced engineers who don't realize that the crosstalk they hear isn't being recorded on the tape.

Signal coupling by means of magnetic induction is not the same thing as transmitting a signal by means of an electromagnetic field propagating through space.
 
ktesibios said:
bjb- what you were picking up was the magnetic field from the speaker's voice coil. Some of the flux produced by the v.c. linked the pickup winding and induced a current in it. In essence, you created an impromptu, very inefficient transformer.

The suction-cup pickup coils you can use to record phone conversations work the same way- the magnetic field produced by the phone's earpiece induces a current in the pickup coil. Hearing aids usually have a built-in pickup coil which can be selected as the aid's input source (instead of the internal microphone) so that the wearer can use the phone.

Another example, which any recording engineer who has worked with analog multitrack will have encountered, is "sync crosstalk" while doing overdubs. This is caused by the magnetic field produced by the head for a track which is in record coupling to adjacent head cores and inducing current in the windings of these heads, so that the signal being recorded is heard when monitoring adjacent tracks which are in playback. (In sync recording, the record head is used both for recording and for playback so that the recorded signal goes down on the tape in sync with the other tracks which the musician is playing to.) This phenomenon has scared @#$% out of inexperienced engineers who don't realize that the crosstalk they hear isn't being recorded on the tape.

Signal coupling by means of magnetic induction is not the same thing as transmitting a signal by means of an electromagnetic field propagating through space.


very good explination. Thanks for the clarifacation. :)

About 7 years ago I darn near crapped myself about that when I was first starting out.
 
Certainly not a problem (I would think) with digital recording.

I was very lucky when I went to Thailand to load B52’s. I was hoping to find a friend who knew something about stereo, I did, and I learned a lot from him. He also knew a lot about how photography. Over there you could buy stereo and camera equipment, etc. for about half price then.

Anyway, I had made a headphone splitter for running two headphone at once, so my friend and me where listening to some music. I was lying in the bunk when from my left channel I hear “Do you want to go to lunch”. It set me back at first. He was, of course, talking into his headphone.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Paulhoff said:
Certainly not a problem (I would think) with digital recording.

Not an issue at all. In digital tape recording the tape is magnetized into saturation and the signals from the play head preamps are converted to unambiguous 1s and 0s by a level slicer. Crosstalk would have to have a very high amplitude to alter that, and since none of the practical sources of crosstalk come near that threshold, whatever track-to-track crosstalk there is has no effect on the ultimate output.

Also, in digital stationary-head reel-to-reel recording, the only form which mimics the analog situation of having physical tracks carrying information for separate channels, running longitudinally along the tape parallel to each other, cores mounted in the same head assembly are never used for recording and playback at the same time. When you do an overdub on a Mitsubishi X-850 or a Sony PCM-3348 the playback audio is coming from the sync head on the far left of the headblock and the recording is taking place at the record head, the third one from the left.

Of course this is all obsolete technology now. Analog is still around, but hard disk recording systems have made digital tape machines a drug on the market. :(
 

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