Going to the Creation "Museum"

[tsig]

Respect is earned, not given. Showing up in a horde doesn't teach people to think critically about their beliefs. It causes people to take a deffensive position and further closes the bridge for a rational dialog. You can't gain acceptance or expect tolerance of your own beliefs if you don't practice it with others.



I can see you're exercising some serious critical thinking about your own actions. I'm sure the believers you seek to enlighten at the Creation Museum will have the same reaction. Fundamentalist behavior isn't limited to religion.

I am not seeking to enlighten anybody. There's your first mistake. Your second was thinking that I might want a rational dialogue with irrational people.

 

[tsig]

I'm also glad to hear that it went well.

Assuming for now that your report is accurate, it might well be due, at least in part, to people like us who warned you of the disaster you might have faced if you hadn't taken precautions. It appears that you listened to us and we thank you for that.

We all saw something similar during the beginning of the year 2000 right after the "Y2K" scare. Computer experts everywhere had warned about how computers would malfunction because they'd think the year was 1900. There were skeptics, but the people who mattered listened to them. They checked and updated their software ahead of time to ward off problems, just as the experts had advised, and when New Year's Day 2000 came and went, there were very few serious reports of computer problems.

Of course those same computer experts then had to endure some gloating from those who had doubted them all along, but I'm sure that was a small price to pay for knowing that they had helped avert a disaster.

Yep in spite of your naysying it came off and now you claim credit?

 

[Towlie]

Not me personally, the hundreds of people like me who posted on several forums, including the Pharyngula site. You can follow how attitudes there gradually changed over time since the trip was first announced.

I am not seeking to enlighten anybody. There's your first mistake. Your second was thinking that I might want a rational dialogue with irrational people.

I believe you about them being irrational. In fact, after reading this recent post by PZ Myers, it's hard to believe they're even serious.

 

[tsig]

Not me personally, the hundreds of people like me who posted on several forums, including the Pharyngula site. You can follow how attitudes there gradually changed over time since the trip was first announced.

I believe you about them being irrational. In fact, after reading this recent post by PZ Myers, it's hard to believe they're even serious.

delete

 

[SezMe]

Robster, is 016 one of the t-shirts that had to be inverted to gain entrance?

 

[supercorgi]

Well if the results of the outing didn't prove us wrong about atheists' perceived holier-than-thou attitude, your sarcastic tone sure does.

Think what you want. It's obvious that Towlie thought the visit was going to turn into a debacle because he/she believes that atheists are people who cannot control themselves, who will go out of their way to offend everyone, and don't know how to act like nice people. Yes, there was criticism (which you should expect at any museum - ever been to an art museum?) and some ridicule, but it could have turned into a debacle based on the intolerance and belligerence of the museum's staff that couldn't bare to have their sacred cow scorned.

If anyone has an holier-than-thou attitude, it seems to me to be those ones who think they have a direct phone line to god and that their version of Christianity is the only true version. Hell anyone who thinks their religion is the only true religion and condemns all others is the definition of "holier-than-thou!"

 

[supercorgi]

Not me personally, the hundreds of people like me who posted on several forums, including the Pharyngula site. You can follow how attitudes there gradually changed over time since the trip was first announced.

I think it had more to do with the Creation Museum contacting PZ and spelling out what behavior they would and wouldn't accept. Stop patting yourself on the back.

 

[MikeSun5]

No one is asking for your approval or endorsement.

Your concern is noted. And dismissed.

deleted
Your last sentence ends it for me. bye all.

Good enough. You didn't really bring much to the table anyways.

I am not seeking to enlighten anybody. There's your first mistake. Your second was thinking that I might want a rational dialogue...

delete

indeed...

 

[MikeSun5]

Think what you want. It's obvious that Towlie thought the visit was going to turn into a debacle because he/she believes that atheists are people who cannot control themselves, who will go out of their way to offend everyone, and don't know how to act like nice people. Yes, there was criticism (which you should expect at any museum - ever been to an art museum?) and some ridicule, but it could have turned into a debacle based on the intolerance and belligerence of the museum's staff that couldn't bare to have their sacred cow scorned.

Well my comment was really only to show that you were generalizing as much as you thought Towlie was. It has been repeated in this thread that the ones worrying about the outing were referring to a small number of the 280 people showing up, not all atheists around the world.
As far as the intolerant, belligerent staff you mentioned, Robster actually said that the museum's employees were fine, but one Creationist was asked to leave. Did you even read this thread?

If anyone has an holier-than-thou attitude, it seems to me to be those ones who think they have a direct phone line to god and that their version of Christianity is the only true version. Hell anyone who thinks their religion is the only true religion and condemns all others is the definition of "holier-than-thou!"

I agree, but I thought the phrase "holier-than-thou atheist" was really clever.

 

[supercorgi]

Well my comment was really only to show that you were generalizing as much as you thought Towlie was. It has been repeated in this thread that the ones worrying about the outing were referring to a small number of the 280 people showing up, not all atheists around the world.

It appears that you listened to us and we thank you for that.

Oh towlie, it wasn't apparent what your affliation was before now but now it is. Still, despite your prejudices, I thank you for affirming the basic humanity of us godless atheists.

I specifically said "I thank you for affirming..." So I wasn't generalizing. I thanked Towlie - unfortunately, and it's a fact in this country, that atheists are distrusted and shunned.

As far as the intolerant, belligerent staff you mentioned, Robster actually said that the museum's employees were fine, but one Creationist was asked to leave. Did you even read this thread?

Of course I read this thread. And despite what Robster posted, the facts later showed that it was one person wearing an "offensive T-shirt" was asked to leave and a videographer that was trying to film for a documentary on atheism. Do you read anything other than what's here (ok low blow but you pissed me off). And the t-shirt person that was asked to leave was asked because he said in the dining hall that he didn't want to waste any more money on this place. That evidently so annoyed a couple from Virginia that they complained. How fracking PC do we have to be? So everyone now has a right not to be annoyed? Personally, I think it's pretty intolerant for someone to complain that their whole trip is ruined because some anonymous person said they didn't think the place was worth spending money on.

I agree, but I thought the phrase "holier-than-thou atheist" was really clever.

Pat yourself on the back some more.

 

[MikeSun5]

I specifically said "I thank you for affirming..." So I wasn't generalizing. I thanked Towlie - unfortunately, and it's a fact in this country, that atheists are distrusted and shunned.

Seriously? Your post implied that Towlie assumes all athesits are inhumane. Then you say that our entire country shuns and distrusts atheists. How is that not generalizing? For next time.

you pissed me off

Your problem, not mine.

And the t-shirt person that was asked to leave...

Uh... that's not what I was referring to, so you obviously only read pay attention to what you want to. I was referring to this:

I think one of theirs (creationists, not staffers) was rude to PZ and was kicked out, too.

...but you read that already.

 

[SezMe]

Seriously? Your post implied that Towlie assumes all athesits are inhumane. Then you say that our entire country shuns and distrusts atheists. How is that not generalizing?

Hold on there, Mike. The actual assertion was:

in this country, that atheists are distrusted and shunned.

The word "entire" is not there. That quote has polling data to show that the above is a factual statement. Well, the distrusted part anyway. Not sure about shunned.

 

[MikeSun5]

The word "entire" is not there.

Semantics. What he wrote doesn't need the word "entire." He said "this country."

That quote has polling data to show that the above is a factual statement.

Link?

 

[supercorgi]

Thank you SezMe that I did not use the word "entire." That being said, there is a large contingent in the US that does not trust atheists.

Seriously? Your post implied that Towlie assumes all athesits are inhumane. Then you say that our entire country shuns and distrusts atheists. How is that not generalizing? For next time.

Gee thanks for your condensation. There have been a number of polls in the U.S. that show that atheists are the most distrusted minority http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist8.htm, http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm. Oops sorry, now it seems as though Scientologists outrank us http://theframeproblem.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/atheism-no-longer-the-most-despised-group-in-america-thanks-scientology/. Besides that, there are some states that still have those pesky laws that no one that does not avow a belief in a creator cannot hold public office.

Your problem, not mine.

Hmm. my problem was exactly how you phrased things. But, having said before that there is no right not to be offended, I can't really hold this against you. (but FYI you still tick me off)

Uh... that's not what I was referring to, so you obviously only read pay attention to what you want to. I was referring to this:

Robster, who was in the thick of things, got only partial information (ever played "telephone?"). I gave you the real facts and yet you still make an issue. Have you read anything other than what has been posted here? Try going to PZ's blog.

 

[supercorgi]

OK, back to the OP. The excursion happened, there was no "us vs. them" debacle and everything happened just fine. Maybe initially PZ's crowd (and I'm sure they weren't all atheists since it was the Secular Student Alliance - which could of included people from many philosophies), had focused on the confrontational aspects of such an outing. But after the message from the CM of what sort of behavior they would tolerate - the message when through loud and clear and the "horde" was well behaved.

It was a good experience for all and everyone took away from it whatever they did. I'm sure that it reinforced the impression in PZ's "horde" (of which I would have to account myself one even though I wasn't there) that the CM was a travesty and denial of science. And I'm sure that the faithful, felt that PZ's "horde" were an awful lot of closedminded, ill-behaved, miscreants. I don't have a problem with a difference of opinion.

What I do have a problem with is when people like Ken Ham misrepresent science and try to co-opt to to support their mythology and by doing so, miseducate the public. There's no black and white in science -- something is either supported by the evidence or it isn't. If it isn't, we revise our theories. It's changing, adaptable, mutable. Religious dogma isn't and I just can't respect the people who adhere to this type of thought. There are a lot of very devout, very religious people around the world who aren't so tied to dogma. Who are able to see the world and our understanding of it as a changing, growing thing. I just can't understand Ken Ham's philosophy that everything was determined and known 6000 years ago and almost nothing has changed since.

 

[Towlie]

OK, back to the OP. The excursion happened, there was no "us vs. them" debacle and everything happened just fine.

No, not really.



I figured it would take a while for the story to come out.

 

[supercorgi]

I'm adding to this to say that I saw that video about 4 hours ago. Major failure Towlie.

No, not really.



I figured it would take a while for the story to come out.

Are you serious? You can characterize a single person being asked to leave (when he was already on his way out) at disruptive? After he already turned his so terrible atheist T-shirt inside out http://www.thereprobablyisnt.com/ And complained that he didn't feel like spending any more money on the CM? Surely you can do better than that?

And that was the only incidence! Except for some videographer making a documentary (not sure at this point if that was an atheist or a christian - just someone making a documentary about atheists.)

Try a little harder won't you?

 

[Towlie]

Are you serious? You can characterize a single person being asked to leave (when he was already on his way out) at disruptive?

I didn't characterize anything as disruptive. Why are you saying that? All I did was respond to the statement that "The excursion happened, there was no 'us vs. them' debacle and everything happened just fine." As the video proves, that's obviously false.

 

[SezMe]

No, not really.



I figured it would take a while for the story to come out.

That's a description of a "debacle"? Wow, we have to get our dictionaries in synch.

 

[supercorgi]

Assuming for now that your report is accurate, it might well be due, at least in part, to people like us

Hi Towlie, just to prevent more misunderstanding, could you tell me what religious-faction or non-religious faction you belong to. It would help with understanding.